Some peoples say Pidgin English is from Portuguese.some say it is from Niger Delta from the Delta state peoples and some say it is from the Yoruba.I like to know.Share your opinion on this topic.
Some peoples say Pidgin English is from Portuguese.some say it is from Niger Delta from the Delta state peoples and some say it is from the Yoruba.I like to know.Share your opinion on this topic.
No one group can claim responsibility for the evolution of pidgin English, or any sub-dialect of any language for that matter... Languages naturally evolve over time; a word that was merely a slang a few generations ago could very well be generally accepted as part of the language today; it happens all the time, even in Queen's English. Informal dialects like pidgin English are even more flexible in absorbing words from other languages, be it Portuguese, Yoruba, Ijaw or any other language.
LOL.. i can stay in my bed room and publish rubbish about any place and people on wiki.... wiki is nonsense.. I can even go to those your warri wiki and edit them to my taste.. Thats how useless wiki is...nairaland is where we at right now where people post what they think like what we are doing here .. Go to the ground ( the place and see things for your self... Ofunama in EDO state is Ijaw land. Infact the whole OKOMU region is Ijaw, The Egbema people in EDO are Ijaw . You can now see how Ijaw surround Itshekiri. That is one big fact that the Itshekiris are within Ijaw territory and they even share all their enclave with the Ijaws. Ijaw extend to Ondo with no other tribe in between them. That is enough to prove that the Itshekiri is in Ijaw territory ...
Madino is not Okere and non of them is warri..Stop decieving the world..Your forefathers were not this silly if not Ijaw people would not allow them to stay.you are inside ijaw territory and you can see it even in every way..Warri is a town settled by Europeans on ijaw land.those omadino and so on are different towns. But our argument is not even on that. Tell me one itshekiri word that is in ancient pidgin ..Non. all the words were Ijaw words from Potopoto to wah to worwor the am in sentence like do am or get am.
LOL.That's why Africans argue forever.Those are differeñt towns you mentioned and non of them is warri. THEY all just claimed the name Warri.
. There was no warri .The itshekiris just moved from ode itshekiri to warri which was just an European settlement owned by Ijaw. and Kalabari people have started speaking pidgin before Ph was founded. Early pidgin was full o ijaw words. na wah. That y'all say is pure Ijaw. Wah in Ijaw mean excess or too much.
This is a you tube footage made by a Jamaican linguistic about Jamaican patois..
The Kromanti is a TWI language from Ghana and you can see the early Patois which seem exactly like early Pidgin English of Southern Nigeria before Port Harcourt itself was founded. Now let me explain the logic.. Europeans did not just enter Africa and jacked people away. There was interaction between Africans and Europeans and the AFRICANS may have tried to speak the white man's language. That trial would be a bad form of the language obviously. As time went on that trial improved and a proper bad form of the white man's language evolved. At this time slavery had not been introduced. Slavery was introduced years after that first contact and by that time Bad European language was already spoken in the West Coast of AFRICA especially at the SLAVE COAST . The SLAVE COAST was the Bight of Biafra (bonny ) Which then was the main territory of KALABARI IJAWS. This gave birth to the first bad dutch language by the KALABARI IJAWS. Speakers of this bAD dutch Language were taken to the Caribbean land of GUYANA, SURINAM, ANTIGUA, ARUBA, ANTILLES and Belize. Prior to that time the Portuguese had taken a lot of people including Yorubas, Igbos and ASHANTIS to Brazil and Colombia. But because the Portuguese people were kicked out from the area ,the bad Portuguese formed gave way to Dutch and french. Dutch mixed with French was the first bad European language spoken by the natives mixed with their native dialect. As the English came The English language was introduced and the natives mixed the Dutch / French bad language with the English. to form the first Pidgin Language. SLAVE TRADE commenced thereafter and the English took many of the people speaking this new bad language away as slaves to the CARIBBEAN Country where some earlier taken were already speaking bad Dutch which has now become BERBICE CREOLE.
more than 50 years from then slavery was abolished by the English. The abolition of slavery gave birth to FREE TOWN where freed slaves from slave ships were placed. These freed slaves from slave ships were slaves from SLAVE COAST which is Niger Delta and people speaking BAD EUROPEAN LANGUAGE ALREADY . The pidgin they speak as freed slaves taken to free town was then introduced to the people there. Because freed slaves were not taken to GHANA and any where else they were deprived of Pidgin English. Western Cameroon speak it also because Western Cameroon was at the same zone with the Niger delta and had similar influence......
People should forget about the Nigerian factor of denying facts because their tribe were not involved. And people should stop hating the Ijaws. EARLY PIDGIN english had only Ijaw african words before other tribal words gradually got in . Even in Sierra Leone today there are Ijaw words in the pidgin they speak although Yoruba words have seriously taken over due to lots more Yoruba slaves that were released there later.
Biased mind. Europeans did not just come and start slave trade in AFRICA. They interacted with the people and that interaction was not just by sign language all through, The African natives tried to speak the white mans language and infact some went to school in Europe before the first slave shipment was made. Why do you guys hate Ijaw people so much ? You want to believe it was a SIERRA LEONIAN THING just because it pains you to reason that the IJAWS STARTED IT..You probably did not even check the link I posted here . Educating a hater is a waste of time. So I wont continue with this.
Ok us using some african terminology is not the same as "taking pidgin" to the caribbean. our ancestors WERE african for chrissakes.
the pidgin as you speak now is the DIRECT result of returnees mixing their caribbean dialects with the languages spoken in west africa that were watered down by english.
the link below describes how SL krio was influenced by yoruba, igbo, english and JA patois. Someone mentioned[b] modern pidgin [/b]was brough to Nigeria by traders which seems more plausible. The link also discusses the 'two phases of pidgin'.
Uhm ! Eko is a Benin name and not Yoruba. I won't go there with you tho. On Itshekiri issue , are you implying that Ginuwa did not found Itshekiri ? Because the LAGOS example you gave shows exactly that. cos in Lagos the natives are Yorubas while the Benin Oba some how went and conquered them and ruled them and never actually founded the clan. In other words Ginuwa went to Itshekiri which was home to non Edo people like the history properly stated. He went to the IJAW TOWN OF IJALA and lived among them and eventually became a king. Then migrant Mahin and Ilaje Yorubas influenced the language of the people and Itshekiri culture evolved there after. Now if this is true and it all happened in the 1600 century about 1516 or there about, how then would the Portuguese meet Itshekiri people that were not there then in the 15th century ? Would it not make sense to say the people met by the Portuguese were the IJAWS since the Ijaw town of IJALA was one of numerous other Ijaw settlements in the area before Ginuwa came from Benin .
On prince Ginuwa, I don't see your point about the Itsekiri not speaking Edo. A Benin prince became Oba of Lagos, but the native Lagos Yorubas don't speak Edo either.
If you think the Western Ijaws met the Portuguese before the Itsekiri did, that's fine and I don't really have any issue with that. I did not say the Itsekiri actually did meet the Portuguese first or before the Ijaw, I just had a slightly different time frame for the beginning of their kingdom than you do. I have no way of knowing who actually met who first and it's not an issue of contention for me.
I've read much of the account of William Moore already. He doesn't explain why the date is approximately 1516 (not 1576 as you wrote), rather than an earlier date (like soon after 1480) in that tradition, considering that Ginuwa was the son of Oba Olua of Benin, but from the language he uses it seems clear that they were already at Ijala before 1516 and that the king's sons relocated to Ode Itsekiri later. Anyway, I assume it (Iwere) was founded in the late 15th century as per what I'd already read and others will assume it was founded in the early 16th century based on William Moore's writings (some time near the 1516 date, not the 1576 date you just made up). That's fine and our perspectives are not that different since "late 15th century" and "early 16th century" are not that far apart.
Also, I would advise you not to rely too heavily or exclusively on Peter Ekeh's accounts as he has an occasional tendency to distort what the written sources actually say when making his arguments, even if he does bring up some relevant or originally obscure facts. I've had to point out one of his distortions (regarding a story from Benin recorded by Robert Bradbury) in another thread on a completely unrelated matter. Also, Ekeh has a long running dispute over this Itsekiri/Warri/Urhobo/Ijaw issue, hence his insertion in there of a claim that the sons of Ginuwa were maternally of Ijaw descent (with no evidence or references) and his claim about the name Aveiro and the name Iwere (an ingenious invention, but not supported by any facts or any other real research). I'm not sure why he is letting his issues with the Itsekiri push him to the point of misleading people, but he's definitely not an even remotely objective source of information (which is not to say that those he was/is arguing against were necessarily objective or completely accurate in their claiming either).
lol No African returned from the Caribbean. Free town was founded to settle slaves freed from slave ships when slavery was abolished. That was like 100 years since slavery started. African people simply hate it when certain glory does not belong to them. And AGAIN the so called Returning slaves were slaves speaking Pidgin before they were taken away. Pidgin was not founded in the CARIBBEAN .
It was stated that Ginuwa hid among Ijaw people in IJALA and at about 1576 or so the Portuguese met him. Mind you there was no Itshekiri then yet But Ginuwa and his people in the Ijaw settlement oof IJALA.. An Itshekiri historian wrote it..... check it here ... http://books.google.ca/books?id=de-oEDGZcPIC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Portuguese+Niger+delta&source=bl&ots=QXZxAnVsfc&sig=HqxSDvOy85TizuZW25w18CEB4dM&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Portuguese%20Niger%20delta&f=false
Read this and learn.... There and see that Warri never existed then.. Even Benin was mentioned but never warri or Itshekiri .
Just take your lazy behind to a library one of these days and make a genuine attempt to learn about other groups. Then try talking with knowledgeable people from those other groups to learn more and correct any misconceptions you might have. Then form whatever claims seem reasonable to you. This is the approach reasonable people would take. With these things done, I might have reason to take you seriously. Until then, it would be a waste of time to engage you. And lol @ liking your own comment under an alternate account. What's even funny is the known (to those who have done any reading) letter from the mid 1600s from the king of the Itsekiri requesting more Catholic priests in which the king explicitly identifies the name of his kingdom as 'Oery' which sounds startlingly close to 'Iwere' suggesting that one of these words is just a spelling or pronunciation variant on the other. And yet you think I would actually argue about this non-issue of what the name of the kingdom really was? By the way, I never made any claim about what the extent of the precolonial Warri kingdom - as opposed to the colonial Warri district and the modern postcolonial Warri city - was but rightly noted that it was an Itsekiri kingdom. If you want to argue about its precolonial ethnic composition with no sources and references for your claims, that's a separate discussion, but I think I've spent enough time on you so go find someone else to discuss your theories with.
Dude, didn't I just tell you it would be a waste of time discussing this with you because you're averse to reading about other groups? The parts of what you posted that I disagree with are not even worth addressing. Keep promoting this "English creation" stuff, but move on to discussing it with others because you shouldn't expect to be taken seriously by me.
I am from the Niger delta and I have great interest on Niger delta issues. I know how Itshekiri came about and how they got their dialect. Thw word Itshekiri ITSELF IS AN IJAW WORD which proper word was SEIKIRI. The first non natives that came to join the Ijaws there were the MAYIN people and not even Edo. The Edos came later and took over leadership from the mayin. The Ijaw natives were not all about land dwelling so leadership in the town was not paramount to them and they spent more of their time on the river in their canoes going about their fishing business. The name Seikiri means forbidden land possibly due to its thickness . Now that forest land is not any where near the ocean but deep inside the creek which could not be reached by EUROPEAN ships. Ijaw settlements and Ijaw activities abound within the creeks down south to the ocean. ( WARRI KINGDOM TODAY is not an exclusive enclave of itshekiri people but a mixture of the IJAW natives and the Itshekiris ) Over time seikiri became pronounced as JEKRI due to adulteration and the town became JEKKRI and then due to further adulteration it became Itshekiri. Because the Itshekiri people do not even know what this name mean they claim to be called IWERE. The title OLU was introduced by the MAYIN and not the Edo. Olu is not an EDo word but a Yoruba word. The little town Itshekiri by itself could not have been a kingdom although it had a king cos many of the surrounding settlements were Ijaw settlements all the way to the ocean. Now if people had come from the ocean , who were the people they would likely meet ? Ofcourse they could not have sailed through the shallow creek to Itshekiri town just immediately. They may have had contact with the Ijaws at the extreme south by the ocean at the mouth or estuary of the river before meeting the Itshekiri settlement which itself was surrounded by Ijaw settlements. The making of the ITSHEKIRI KINGDOM was politically created to make the area a pro Yoruba enclave disregarding the Ijaw natives. The nonchalance of the Ijaws led to its creation anyway and so when they say Itshekiri kingdom it does not necessarily mean a kingdom of the Itshekiri people alone but rather a kingdom ruled by an Itshekiri Olu with aboriginal Ijaw natives and migrant Itshekiris who were Mayin, Edo and some Igbira. The word warri came during the English era and not the Portuguese era because Olu Itshekiri and Itshekiri kingdom was the name at the time. The mystery of the name WARRI is still not solved at this time because both Itshekiri and Ijaws have not provided a reasonable backing to how the name came about. For the Itshekiris who claimed they are known as IWERE they could not establish that since they do not have a history of an IWERE KINGDOM BUT an Itshekiri kingdom and for the Ijaws who claim that WARRI was an adulteration of the word Wari could not also back it up with any evidence of any kind since Wari would not be a name of a town or settlement in Ijaw. But it was the English that started using the adulterated word WARRI in the 17th century and not in the 15th century and just recently during Awolowo time was when the name Itshekiri kingdom was changed to WARRI KINGDOM by Awolowo during his time as premier of Western region..So if there is a history of Portuguese people meeting Itshekiris in the 15th century trust me they may have met the Ijaws who were natives of that kingdom if not who ever wrote that history should provide say who the OLU of Itshekiri was and which Itshekiri village or settlement that was reached. You can not reach a kingdom without reaching a settlement or a town.
You only read a piece of work done by some one who may have carried out some research. I am also explaining my finding based on research work . And this is not just an ordinary research work but a history about my own people which oral tradition is always being told to us. The Kalabari GROUP that migrated their base which is now called CALABAR are the Koro-ame family members who are found in Buguma, Abonnema and Bakana towns of KALABARI today. Some people would simply say they were CALABAR people that came to join their brothers while others would say they were Calabar people that just came to join the KALABARIS. But considering their names which is Ijaw from their leader whose name was Owuere ye daba and his father who was Koroboye and others, and also considering that the people never spoke Efik or Ibibio it becomes a fact that they were Ijaws and section of the KALABARI IJAW that came back to join their kits and kins due to serious problems they encountered from the DUTCH. They were the same KALABARIS that was used by the Portuguese and Dutch to reach the Igbos of AROCHUKWU through the CALABAR river. Ancient KALABARI people had strong contact with the AROs who they called SUKU and many ARO people who became freed slaves joined the KALABARIS during the return trip .
They have always been at where they are now. The Kalabaris were the ones that moved away from the region. Which means the Ijaws moved away cos KALABARIS are Ijaw people . The Kalabaris had been there by the sea shore as fisher men all the way to Tiko through present day Bakassi. Tiko is in Cameroon near the Cameroon mountain.
What do you mean Calabar people ? You mean Efik people or Ibibio people or Kalabari people ? Cos Calabar is a town and not a people. What is so difficult to understand ? The name CALABAR was spelt by the PORTUGUESE as they tried to document the KALABARI fishing people they met in the 15th century. And the settlement where they met them was documented as CALABAR which was the spelling used to Document the KALABARI people.When a Portuguese man hears KALABARI he would spell it as CALABAR ( BAR is rponounced in Portuguese as BARE or Bari and so CALANBAR would be pronounced as CALABAREE ) In the 15th century the Efik and Ibibios were neighbours of the KALABARI and the KALABARIS referred to all of them as MBOKO people. Their closest town or settlement to the Kalabaris was ATAKPA which became known as Duke Town. When the Kalabaris left for reasons during the Dutch era their settlement which was documented as Calabar was occupied by the Dutch and by the 17th century in the 1600s the Efiks moved their Obong stool to Calabar and occupied it firmly and since then it became an Efik / Ibibio / Annang town.
What would it cost you to do some actual reading on the place and people you want to make so many claims about?
I don't object in principle to the claiming of this or that about history, but don't you think it's a bad approach to put forward claims before reading about and trying to learn about a group or a place rather than after doing so?
To those who have actually done some reading, this approach doesn't look good. Anyway, carry on with your beliefs. I don't think it's really worth it to get dragged into this particular argument.
The name WARRI KINGDOM was not even used at that time. The name WARRI itself was never used then. WARRI became a controversial name when the English came and settled at the NEW WARRI city GRA.. GRA then was European quaters and they chose to live far from the natives. The Itshekiris claim Warri is an adulterated version of Iwere while the Ijaws claim it was from the word Wari meaning family or home. The English came in the 17th century meaning the word WARRI was introduced then and not the Portuguese era. Matter of fact There was no established kingdom of Itshekiri at that time and the OLU was the OLU ITSHEKIRI . So there would not be any history about a man visiting WARRI kingdom at a time when there was no WARRI kingdom. That history is made up or new names used to replace historical names. Who was the Olu Itshekiri during the Portuguese era ?
Man there was no CALABAR at that time. Why is it difficult to make people understand issues.. There were Efiks but no CALABAR at that time. There was no CALABAR in the 15th century ( 1400s) CALABAR was the Portuguese spelling for KALABARI. PORTUGUESE people were the first to document names of people and places they met . The KALABARI fishing people they met at the rio real were documented as CALABAR.. in PORTUGUESE BAR would be pronounced as BARI or baree. The KALABARI people were either just there as Borikiri meaning fishing port since they dominated that area at that time. By the 17th century the KALABARIS moved back to their original present site and at that time the EFIKS moved their OBONG from ATAKPA or Duke Town to CALABAR.. During the DUTCH era CALABAR was pronounced as CALABAH giving it the new pronunciation and the Original KALABARI areas major town then became known as NEW CALABAR.
there's a diogo cao on wiki who was said to have been in the congo basin around that time.
he also went to angola and some areas around it.
its not certain if he reached calabar- needs to be studied further.
seems he went to elmina in ghana, and also sailed to congo/loango/etc.
he used christian blacks to network with the local rulers during his expeditions- not sure where he got them from.
1. I am not from a "big tribe."
2. The claim is about a European, so get the European source if you can't get a precolonial Nigerian source. Or was Diego Sam an illiterate?
3. I did not say it necessarily didn't happen or that someone called or at least remembered as Diego Sam didn't exist. What bothers me is that an exact date (1493) was given, as if it was so certain he visited at that date or there was a specific non-modern source for that date. There are other instances of a non-African visitor being remembered in tradition by an African group, but usually we just read about it being "in the reign of this or that king," or "around the time of this event" not such an exact date. Anyway, there is, on the surface, no reason to not believe that one Portuguese sailor visited Calabar in the late 15th century, since they were starting to visit a lot of places in Africa around that time. But the issue is accepting that specific date.
BUT WHAT SENSE DO HISTORIANS MAKE WHEN THEY SAY GINUWA FOUNDED ITSHEKIRI AND HE WAS FROM BENIN AND THE SON OF THE BENIN OBA AT THE TIME AND YET THE ITSHEKIRI PEOPLE DO NOT SPEAK EDO ? Think about this and start a proper history of the Itshekiri based on facts. People have also not disputed the fact that Ginuwa entered a territory occupied by the Ijaws so why are people dismissing the fact that the IJAWS were already settled there when the Edo prince got there ? If this is true why have people not taken in to cognizance that the Ijaws there at that time might be in their thousands scattered all over the territory . Why then do people totally forget the native Ijaws at that time when the Portugese entered the zone ? WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF BURUTU AND BOMADI that dwell at the estuary of the river Benin ? Ode Itshekiri is way further North of the River and so The Portuguese may have met the Ijaws by the ocean and along the estuary of the river Benin before meeting the Oery or Iwere people ? .LOOK what probaly happened was, Ginuwa left Edo land and went to Ijaw land to rule over the Ijaws. Later migrant Mahin and Ilaje yorubas came in and all the party collectively made the Itshekiri of today.
You are right. Many people do not still speak pidgin today even in the heavy pidgin speaking areas. What I meant was at least there were elements of pidgin speaking slaves in every slave ship taken away and those were the people that introduced pidgin in the Caribbean. The way Jamaicans pidgin pronounce their words especially the B and D is African and they say they do that because their founding fathers pronounced the words and letters like that and they claim it is West African accent. Only Eastern Ijaws pronounce B and D like that where the D in Do it would sound Gdo it as in the D sound of the Eastern Ijaw words Dumo (Life ) Duba ( Big ) and Buko ( Monkey ) Bo ( Come )
Because it has not been written by any one from any big tribe does not mean it did not happen. No one has ever written the relationship between my fore parents and Europeans But It happened. Go to Calabar and ask about Calabar history to know every thing about Calabar. One day an Efik person would pick interest and publish the history of Calabar that covers such events and whne that happens many people would doubt asking the same question you just asked.
much of this is not correct, although i partly agree with some of your other posts.
some slaves were already speaking pidgin, but its safe to assume most were not, since remote villages were often raided for slaves.
there were large populations of enslaved persons along the coasts- initially most were waiting for shipment while later [after abolition], they were simply freed slaves, many of who did not return home, or went home then came back.
slaves brought to the coast, picked up pidgin because it was the language of communication both between the european slavers and their african counterparts,and the slaves themselves and their african captors. Also because they (slaves) werent always shipped abroad immediately. Marching slaves down to the coast took time,as did purchasing the slaves and inspecting them and the ships had to sail with a full hold. Also, once the ships were gone, fresh supplies of slaves would have to wait until it or another ship arrived from overseas.
what you need to look for/at is portuguese influence in kalabari/ijaw languages, from back then, if the portuguese were in that area.
yorubas did not have such a strong connection with pidgin mainly because of the portuguese (brazilian) factor, i assume. Needs to be studied further.
[quote author=0hekuru]Point of correction, There is nothing like pidgin English. It is called PIDGIN! It is a contact language. [/quote
Thw word pidgin does not define a type of English. Pidgin is English for creole. and it means mixture of European and African and different native languages.You better correct your self by checking the dictionary meaning of the word pidgin.
Slaves were either already pidgin speakers or Yoruba speakers or Igbo speakers. They never learnt nothing in the slave ships and slaves were not free at any slave port.Freed slaves were already speaking a type of what ever language they knew and the pidgin speaking slaves FREED and returned to FREE TOWN took pidgin there. Slaves also spoke Yoruba in Brazil and even CUBA. early KALABARI slaves spoke a type of KALABARI mixed with Dutch and TWI in Guyana. English was the last and final colonial master in NIGERIA and so the pidgin became a mixture of the early Languages and the native language which was Ijaw. with time Igbo words got in to pidgin because a lot of Igbos have been involved. Yorubas never spoke pidgin because of their strong pro Yoruba mentality.