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Is Diane Abbot Still Justified In Making A Comparison Between Jamaica & Nigeria?

Diane Abbott famously compared Nigeria to Jamaica and suggested that Nigeria was a failed state. Considering current developments in Jamaica with failed attempts to extadite Dudus, was she speaking out of turn?

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That's the problem, you stay vague so you don't need to defend your position. What was that view point based on? where you a victim of crime or witness crime whiles in Ghana? did you have any dealings with the authorities or police? what was so wrong with the environment that made you think unequivocally that Ghana wasn't as safe? what was it?

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@bk.babe97y

When I said good points, I was actually acknowledging that you were right and made a good point. i.e. when deciding safety from looking at it form the statistics viewpoint, but I was saying based upon my observation and perception when I visit, therefore, I came to a different conclusion

@jaygetta

I do see when there is good in African countries, but these days, there is not much to cheer to about. Can I say NCAA is better off today than when it was in the 60's, 70's? (culturally, safety, international reputation, education, infrastructure, schools etc. I say No. If people in Naija speak out and criticize their govt as we do there on this forum, the country will be better off. All we do back home is say yes sir, yes sir and rankadede

And @Bennyboy11

I am not into name calling such "ignorant or ridiculous", that is not my cup of tea. And it is okay to defend Ghana, I once said that Accra is much much safer that Lagos, I am not a "homer"

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The guy is Nigerian, has lived in Nigeria and currently lives in America. He therefore knows the African standard and also the American standard and can identify with both which differ. So what are you on about?

I haven’t said anything about soldier stuff, for your information the bodies that deal with security like CIA, Mi5 and Mossad are not soldiers. It’s actually less exposed people that refer to anything not police related as “soldier stuff”, and yes you are talking to a Ghanaian and a very proud one at that. I simply used the extreme example of Israel and terror just to help you understand my point but evidently it didn’t work.

Regardless of what the interpretation of security standard is, the point remains the same. Whatever the standard, be it quick police response, conducting more thorough investigations, providing a touchy feely western style police service or whatever else, these things are not as important as the presence of criminality when assessing the safety of a place. High crime rates come about as a result of deep rooted problems, the security standards just deal with the symptoms of these deep rooted problems. A country with deep rooted drug problems and a related gang culture will always be more prone to dangerous crime than a country without these problems.

If security standards where what made a place safe as opposed to the presence of criminality for whatever reason, then countries like the US with very high security standards would not be seen as less safe than a lot of poor countries with very low security standards. Just think about it.

You shouldn’t just argue for the sake of arguing, think laterally and be pragmatic. These security standards you’re banging on about have everything to do with how well resourced the police force is and even if these standards were the only thing that made a place safe which they aren’t, do you think Jamaica which is very much a third world country would have vastly different standards from Ghana? Common sense would suggest not really

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Who says he's identifying with differing viewpoints by expressing his viewpoint as an American when he is, in fact, an American?

^^^

The above is based completely on the misinterpretation of "standards of security" to mean security operatives. Now I know I'm not talking with an Ghanian American, but rather a Ghanian since your mind immediately to went to soldier stuff at the mention of standards for personal security. It's amusing to see someone think any kind of reference was made in my earlier post to Americans having standards of security in the sense of having standards for security personnel, armed guards, armored convoys, etc. The average American outside of government or law enforcement knows nothing about what standards these security operatives/apparatuses  are supposed to have and rarely, if ever, sees such high security operatives so I would certainly not have asserted and did not assert that by merely being an American he could come and start pontificating to Jamaicans or Ghanians or other groups about what kind of armed guards, what kind of bomb squad, what kind of high security apparatus, etc. constitutes a quality security apparatus. That's another matter entirely.

It's a bit funny that someone immediately of thinks of guys running a security apparatus when standards of security are mentioned within the context of observations on safety. Let me make it plain and unequivocal since you completely misunderstood my earlier post: the average American has higher standards for what constitutes a secure or safe atmosphere or environment. It's that simple. I wouldn't even be found anywhere where petty crime was abundant and a police force was not vigilant or could not be relied upon to do something about that (still) unacceptable crime or make a significant effort against it, and neither would the vast majority of Americans. That's just one of several things that makes an American's standard for security higher than that of a Nigerian who's never been outside of Nigeria or lived long in the West.

He was not misquoted and I never said he was. Rather, his very literal use of words was misinterpreted and he immediately clarified what interpretation (the completely literal one) he meant for his words the minute someone (bkbabe) misinterpreted them.

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And I'm Sly Stallone! Lol. Actually, I doubt Safari Man is telling lies; I believe he's actually telling the truth. The problem I have with his likes is they look down on everything African and big-up anything foreign. This plus their stereotypical analysis of anything African-American,

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lol couldn't agree with you more bkbabes, the thing is you can be who ever you want to be on a forum, actually my real name is Barrack obama. lol

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Lol. hahahahahhaa. And Safariman is supposed to be this big Doctor that dines with Ambassadors, Sultans, Princes and Princesses. . . . . . yet, comprehension is clearly a problem! Wow!

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I hope you raelise how ridiculous you're looking right about now

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Ok nice try but now you are really starting to struggle. You are trying to defend the indefensible and I must commend you for even making an attempt.  Unfortunately safariman leaves you with nothing to work with.

Culture and environment might affect perception in different places but that’s irrelevant to this argument. He is what he is in spite of his supposed ability to identify with differing viewpoints.

Your argument is based on the false premise that the more security a place provides the safer the place.  The reality is that a lot of the time high security just serves as evidence that a place is not very safe.  You could go to a remote isolated village where the concept of security is nonexistent and feel completely safe because the worst you get there is petty crime. Take Israel on the contrary as an example, they probably have the most advanced security apparatus on the planet. Even buses have detectors, however Israel is simply not a safe place because of the constant threat of terrorism. So don’t confuse two separate issues. A place is not unsafe because of the absence of security it is the presence of criminality that makes it unsafe. The presence of Western standard security like you said has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

The other issues you raise regarding moving words around and what it could then mean is purely semantics and I think you were starting to struggle there. If the guy was misquoted he would have said so.

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Oh, its provable alright! Just as provable to prove that your so-called heaven-on-earth-safe-as-the-Vatican Island Nation of Jamaica is not murder free, afterall!

Here, take a look!

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-highest-murder-rates.html

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

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I don't know where you're going with my Ghanaianness and my posts or the betting issue, what else would we be betting on? It's all incomprehensible. Your only saving grace is the fact that you said you're here to learn when you can, well then learn this, on issues of this nature facts are everything and like your mate said statistics aren't made up so use them!

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@Bennyboy11

Somehow from reading your earlier posts, I missed the point where you referred to yourself as a Ghanaian, but my bone of contention all along with you was that you said I was not a Nigerian, and willing to bet your mortgage i.e "if I was a betting man" and I challenged you on that fact, but I didn't know all along you meant betting on[b] conclusively [/b] proving that Ghana was saver than Nigeria. How is that provable?

Anyway, I am done with this discussion

@ PhysicsMHD

Please let it rest. Thx. I am on this forum to lend my expertise, experience give help where and when I can and to learn

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"What the hell is that all about"? Calm down, son.

It's about distinguishing between being a Black American- somebody who's observing from an American perspective- and being a city or village Nigerian from somewhere who's never lived in the West and whose observations on safety don't have the standard for security that an American does, period. He made a mistake by not saying that he was a naturalized African American and commenting from that point of view, but he didn't take into account the need to be precise. Where he should have said something like as a "non-African American black American" (think how awkward, unwieldy, and strange that sounds and you'll see why you wouldn't say anything like that either) who's familiar to some degree with a few parts of both countries, I think such and such.

In fact I'm not even certain it's clear that he even made the mistake of conflating what he was trying to identify as (Nigerian American) with what you or bkbabe assumed he was (AA) because he said "as African American" which could be distinct in interpretation from saying "As an African American" and instead just mean an American who is African. It was probably his assumption that the phrase "African American" could be interpreted literally, in which case what it states- an American of direct (recent) African origin- is exactly what it means and describes him exactly, rather than interpreted by the Africans on this board the way it is used by Continental Africans to distinguish between themselves and real AA. This should not be too hard to understand. Some phrases are ambiguous and what they are describing can be misinterpreted if not used carefully or replaced with something less ambiguous.

As for Jamaica being safer than Ghana, I completely disagree, but I simply haven't seen the slightest bit of anti-Ghana statements from him or jealousy though I can see how someone could be embarrassed about Nigeria and then try to throw subtle jabs to downgrade Ghana without being able to brag about Nigeria in that particular area. I just don't see it in this case. It seems he really believes that certain parts of Ghana have a more dangerous atmosphere, but once again, I think he needs to see more of the non-tourist Jamaica for a significant period of time. People aren't making up the known statistics.

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You Challenged me and I "balked"  did I? how do you intend to conclusively prove Ghana is less safe in order to settle the bet by the way? I suggest you think through your posts a bit more. No wonder you think Ghana is less safe than Jamaica

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Quote:

Sorry you lost me there, what's your point about my posts regarding Ghana? Are you saying I shouldn't be on Nairaland?

My point was you are on a Nigerian forum, but most of your posts are about Ghana. And yes, you have the right to be here on NL, but you shouldn't be accusing someone of falsifying their nationality just because I said I referred to myself as AA, which when pointed out, I quickly corrected to say that I am NA. You went hellbent to say that if you were a betting man, you'll put up your mortgage and I then challenged you and you balked

@ PhysicsQED

Very well said and observed

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What was ignorant about what I said? And what the hell are u trying to say? Bottom-line he called himself AA and I gave him reasons why he couldnt. If u dont get it then too bad for u.

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@OAM4J

When I was in Montego Bay in May 2010, I stayed at Doctor's Cove Inn (only a street separated us from the ocean) it was nice and not too far from the Sang.**airport and also not too far from the famous Rock' Roll restaurant, but this time around in April 2011, I plan to be in the country since we are on a medical mission trip reaching out to Jamaicans that do not have access to medical doctors. But, we have to return fairly quickly since some of the doctors are fond of Penn Relays in Philly, PA , me to included

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@OP sorry to be off topic.

I have to defend myself regarding Bennyboy11 accusation of me not being a Nigerian and a wanting to claim AA

If anyone has a chance, please check out Bennyboy11's limited posts (most of which are about Ghanaian affairs, huh?), but yet, he is here on NL accusing me and questioning my Naija nationality/authenticity and furthermore, that I want to be an AA because I once referred myself as an AA in a previous post when I should have said correctly that I am a Nigerian/American "N/A", and not an AA.

Bennyboy11, I am still calling your bluff/wager or whatever you want to call it on my nationality,  again if you are wrong based on your analysis (and I'll leave that up to you to decide what method you used), please donate whatever you can to my not for profit organization www.niaausa.org. (Our members include and to name a few, which i think most names Nigerians will recognize: Mary Onyali,(queen) Christian Chukwu, (LA, Nigerian Nightmare) Godwin Obasoge (NY), R Bazuno, Harrison Salami (TX), Chidi Imoh, the late Kolawole Abdulai (ARZ), Ajayi Agbebaku (TX), Christie Opara (Abuja), Dr. Bruce (Arizona), Modupe Oshikoya (LA), Joseph Taiwo (long jumper, Seattle, Wa.)  Francis Ezenwa ( El Paso, the glass tiger) Olapade Adeniken (Silver Olympic medalist), Moses Egbusien, (400M) and Moses Adebanji(Omo West-Houston). And the new Nigerian UTEP students

Only AA or a Ghanaian would know all these

I'll be happy to donate to your choice of a non profit org. if wrong

Any other takers on the wage?[/b]

I am proud to be a Nigerian, but I am not happy with my government either local, state or national

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And the website is www.niaausa.org

You'll find me there

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If I you are wrong, please donate my winning to one of my favorite not for profit org NIAA.org and if I am wrong, I'll be happy to donate to yours.

I don finish be dat

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I haven't called you a  F.O.O.L, at least not in my post, although I must say your mind reading skills are definitely better than you ability to find lucrative betting opportunities.

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^^^

I am not into abusing people. If you are a betting man, I'll prove you wrong.

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They say you can't judge a book by it's cover but you are a bit of an open book. Any Nigerian or Ghanaian for that matter that refers to themselves as an African American has some insecurities, a bit of a blanket statement I know, but I will bet my Mortgage on it and Im not even a betting man.

Your inferiority complex makes you see things narrowly and negatively and it shows. I know your type, always finding it hard to pay deuce to anything Africa.

You can criticise Ghana for a lot of things but to compare Ghana's safety to one the crime capitals of the world and be adamant about it signifies that you are either illiterate and unable to see reason, or you have such a deep rooted complex that you find it hard to associate Africa with anything good.

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@Bennyboy11

Me I no be fake Naija o

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BennyBoy,

I understand what you are saying. But I was just trying to point out something I found weird which I think still goes deep to the heart of stereotypes, It detracted from the argument/discussion in itself,

But I could be wrong,

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Ok Nit picky then, don't worry about it, it wasn't directed at you. I just thought Safariman was being a bit of a Arrow

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Forget the semantics, bottom line the guy is fake and that's all bkbabe is saying. He's a Dum African that sucks up to anything non african. What the hell is the difference between a Jamaican police officer and a Ghanaian police officer? Like police corruption and lack professionalism is perculiar to african police forces.

A person with his level of analytics wouldn't be working for a sophisticated organisation anyway so who cares what they think.

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One thing to note tho' Wesley speaks like Wesley but looks more like Djimon (not that there is anything wrong with that) than he does Shemar Moore.

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Now I am convinced that you are one of those Ghanaian hating Nigerians just using this as an opportunity to talk rubbish. There is no substance to any of your comments. Ghana is no where near as bad as you're are trying to make it and its getting old. There are numerous Jamaicans moving to Ghana and several of them do so due to the relative safety. Even Mzdarkskin herself hasn't claimed what you are ignorantly trying to claim.

Actually there is a Jamaican businessman that spent time in Ghana I'll send the link, he was essentially advocating that Jamaica emulates Ghana as a way of dealing with the level of voilence

I suspect that you work for some crappy organisation that is totally out of touch. Even the state department considers Ghana very safe so what the hell are you talking about. You can never disguise jealousy friend!!

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@Safari man: Jamaica, Sao Paolo and Jo'burg are triplets from the same mother of Crime. No way Ghana is more dangerous than Jamaica.

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^^

For me on the business side, we took extra precaution when we travelled to Ghana versus when we go to Jamaica. As I have said earlier, feeling secured is not only based on statistics, but may be related to what our hosts told us as to what to expect and how one truly feels when you are in that particular country/environment.

Jamaica takes a lot of time and pride in making sure that visitors and to some extent, residents (who are not involved in illegal activites) are relatively secured except in the ghettos. Although, appearance and on the surface, things may be super visual and not be a big deal, but if you have been to Jamaica, can you compare the appereance of a Jamaican police/constable compared with a Ghanania police? Perception agin may be reality,

And come to think about it, we (Nigeria included) are all 3rd world countries.

Just my obervation

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@Bennyboy11

I partially agree with you that one should use statistics, but that alone is not enough. I don't need only (my word) statistics to know when I am in Georgetown, Fairfax, Potomac or N/W DC to fell safe versus when I am in Baltimore or in Anacostia.

And yes, you are correct, we were told to watch out for people that are going to dupe us, pickpockets-ers or just watch your back while in Accra and I only ventured out to Nima once

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[]

cool. I will add you to my yim. keep me posted.

[quote][/quote]

ok, will do

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Yes you're right East Lagon is a very nice place. Just like anywhere else you will hear the odd thing here and there more so lately than in the past but all in all Ghana is a very safe country.

Like I said you are better off using statistics than gut feeling to make statements about a place. I walk, drive and generally frequent east lagon when I'm in Ghana with no problems what so ever, You were Vigilant probably because you were told to be or you had preconceptions, but you were obviously not Robbed cos you would have said, so how do you rate east lagon in terms of safety? well you can't

What I am saying is if you have never been robbed or been a victim of crime in Ghana then the only basis you have is the feeling you had or what you were told which is neither scientific nor concrete. Do you get my point?

For accuracy you should go with statistics, if I go to Somalia and it's completely safe on the day and get robbed the first night Im in Lagos, I would have a feeling that somlia was safer than Nigeria but how inaccurate would that be?!

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cool. I will add you to my yim. keep me posted.

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@Bennyboy11

One cannot compare Accra with Lagos, Accra is much much safer. The last time I was in Ghana was in 2009 and I was in East Lagon area, a very nice place, but even then, we were very viligant.

@OAM4J

I plan to be in Jamaica in April with a team of doctors on a medical mission trip.

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Safariman, can you give me an example of an area in Ghana that you went to on business and needed tight security like you claim? Just the name of where you went to on business presumably in Accra, and when. Whiles you are at it, in your opinion how does Safety in Lagos compare to Accra?

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@0AM4J

I respect your opinion, as for me, I have been going to Jamaica for the past 20 years and during the '70s I represented Nigerian at the Nigeria vs Ghana games so I visited Accra at that time and I now go there on business.

In Jamaica, I have travelled through Trillani, Via, Montego Bay, Spanish town, Race Course, Port Maria, St Elizabeth and I have met with many Custors and once made a courtesy call to the then 1990s Nigeria's Ambassador to Jamaica (a Dr. from Ekiti or Ondo state) and I have never once experienced any problem and that is why my opinion is based on my personal experience. I travelled to Jamaica at least once a year.

When we do business in Ghana our security and business details are totally different preparation wise than when we do business in Jamaica.

Again, I agree with you on some issues that doing business in the inner city and ghettos in any city is quite different than being a tourist visiting Montego Bay, Dunn's River and staying at the resorts, the same could be said about a lot of other countries. Even here in the US, there are some places here in DC or Baltimore that I don't go at night.

Correct me if I wrong, don't the Jamaicans treat you different (with more respect) than if you were a Jamaican, at least that what I have experienced

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D way british labour party excluded that woman from d shadow cabinet shows how insignificant blacks are in british politics.No matter how hard some like abbort try to belong oyinbo will always relegate them to d background.Pity for uncle and aunty TOMS

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MZDarkskin I am very aware of the likes of Micheal Manley and his socialist agenda and the conspiracies against him, the influx of arms from America which has contributed in a big way to the current situation. Black people don't just go about killing themselves believe it on not, not even in the darkest Jungles of Uganda and Congo.

Anyway never mind about that, you seem reasonable enough and i suspect we agree on more things than we disagree on. Bottom line is I don't think Diane Abbot's comments were warranted, she has the right especially as a black person to express her concerns about Nigeria but the comparison was unnecessary and you agreed earlier so case closed.

More importantly is that your real picture on you profile?

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Right and Africa doesn't have any garrisons? You guys I swear.

@BK you know damn well in Jamaica they don't just rob/kill foreigners just because, they usually go for those who are naive and show offs.

This is not limited to Jamaica. I don't know how ppl can say there is no prejudice against us but then act like we are the "killers of the world". Learn the history of Jamaica and the C.I.A's involvement and you will see why there is endless crime. Don't talk about us like we are a disgrace when you don't know the facts.

@Benny boy: I understand what you are saying but I still believe that is a stigma we have had to live with due to the drug trades in which we gained notoriety in the 1980s. Kingston/St.Catherine are only AREAS in Jamaica, NOT ALL OF Jamaica. Our population is only less than a full 3 million, if we were dropping like flies as you all WANT to believe my whole family in those areas would be wiped out. Like I said there are more random killings in places like the Congo/Uganda than Kingston. I said it.

There may be love on both sides and I appreciate that but I don't take this "those Jamos" talk. I dont appreciate it at all and the willingness to stereotype us.

0AM4J you dont know anything about Jamaica. "watch your back" seriously?, they know who is part of what, they dont bother just anybody. This is AMAZING!

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Sorry your personal experience does not match the reality on ground. A tourist will not be able to attest to the true reality of things in Jamaica

Most of the city centres and hotel locations are relatively safe, but when you go into the inner cities and the ghettos, you'll know its not safer than Ghana.

There are many Dons who rule these inner cities/ghettos, the same way Dudu was ruling Tivoli gardens, and you [b]MUST watch your back and be VERY careful what you do when you get into these places.

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@Dis Guy

Based on my personal experience, Jamaica is safer than Ghana, unless one is wrapped up in ganja business, Jamaica is less safe

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bk.babe97y

You are one scary looking female. Eosh! Dat be no sexy picture. You are obese. You silly Akata. I can;t show my pic, it's a bit XXXX rated . Is that your hair or did your Indian friend lend it to you ? LOL. I hate Akata's . They should put y'all in teh gas chamber, so you can have a black Ann Frank to tell your story. That way, maybe the world will have a lil compassion for the animals we know as Black Americans.

Are you even black ? Black Babe , my yansh. Abeg Commot For here!!! Check your ancestry, you might be pleasantly surprised to find that there is nothing black about your DNA.

Glory Be to Yur White Massa. Damn. Wish I was here in the 1600's , so that I could play a beautiful role in making you akata's werk!!!!!!!!!

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Mrs HIPPOPOTAMUS, TAMUS TAMUS! Watch that mouth referring Ibo's as Monkey. You look like a Whale , and that background. It cannot get anymore GE__HETTO!!!!

Nonsense punk.

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YUCK bkbabe is male u battyboy

Safariman, are you still saying Jamaica is safer than Ghana? hope you've not been smoking the amb's ganja pipe too!

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I have said that I am a Nigerian/American that just used the wrong word, AA. And If this was not a public forum, I would post the picture of me and Jamaica's Ambassador having dinner. I am not a low life

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@bkbabe, sweetheart dont pay this looser any mind, you know exactly what he was trying to do. Low life Africans always try and fake stuff but  real forward thinking Africans know thier worth and realise there is nothing wrong with being African. He would Lucky to look like Djimon  Hansou!!

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