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Lagos State Govt - Are They On Crack?!

This was scanned from Guardian of yesterday. Unrealistic fines!

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This is what I am talking about, Repair and then legislate.

http://www.punchng.com/Articl.aspx?theartic=Art200807201223246

Good job.

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For those that keep referring to the sanity in places like London, the authorities do so much that if you are ever fined, you will usually have no option but to blame yourself because everything is in place for you not to break the law or to fight your case quickly if you feel wronged.

This makes it easier to feel obligated to pay the fine although some still complain about the high cost of fines. But the authorities are so good (unlike Nigeria) that they even lower the fine by 50% if you pay within a 2 week period.

My argument reiterated: Good/decent systems justifies rules or fines.

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Forgive me, mate. I have lost hope with my sources.

They kept on telling me year after year that Tinubu was doing well only for me to be heavily disappointed everytime I visit.

I guess my sources' standards are just plain low due to the extent of incompetence they have had to endure.

Take for example Muritala Muhammed Airport. Have you guys not noticed the hazard of the airport on arrival because arrivees have to queue on moving escalators? And within a 12 month period between my last 2 visits, no one has resolved this.

The authorities in Nigeria are more mad than the people.

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@Sagamite when last where you in lagos? I asked you not to take my word for it but to ask anyone living in lagos as i don't live in Lagos but due to interest follow the developments there very carefully. I said ask others, research and see what is changing. It really is not that difficult i can actually refer you to some places where you can see for yourself and when next you are in lagos you will be able to witness the changes. Lagos roads are not thesame as they were this time last year @texazzpete true or false? The camera idea is an obvious choice but is it that practical? I definately agree that an avenue should be made available whereby people should be able to object, however i hope you are aware that it is again stating problems with how the fines are going to work or be implemented.

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Well you are the one that lives in Lagos, I have not been there in the last 10 months. So I will not argue out of ignorance, and will have to take your word for this that changes are taking place. I wasn't impressed the last time I was there.

In regards to implementation, probably sanity can be achieved by requiring in most cases that police/lastma provide video evidence when fining people. That is, they film you discretely and then stop you. It won't be that hard.

With the current photographic capabilities of mobile phones, motorists can also film situations where the signs don't exist whether due to lack of provision or due to lastma people taking it down to make money.

The key there is for the AUTHORITIES to provide EFFICIENT, RELIABLE, NEAR INSTANT RESOLUTION and EASILY ACCESSIBLE avenues for ALL motorists to raise objections and challenge unjustified fines.

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@Sagamite so does that mean that you agree it is the implementation and the system not the fines that is the problem? This is something that seriously needs addressing and can be addressed, the deterrent is still inspite of this, there. At least there will be no abandoned tankers on express roads anymore which are seriously dangerous. The next thing should be certifying vehicles for road use worthiness.

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Yes, it is easy for the police. You yourself know Nigeria. If the police/lastma is obviously trying to exploit you, where is the avenue to raise an objection if you are not highly connected? Even if there is an avenue, what reasonable guarantee is there that the civil servants responsible for decision making in this avenue would be objective instead of forcing you to pay at least sonthing (if you don't want to pay the full fee) and sharing the loot with your accusers? And if you refuse or even object initially, it is you that would suffer because your car would be impounded for some serious weeks until you see common sense (i.e. at least drop sonthing).

As you said implementation is fundamental. What gives road users guarantees that it is not the lastma guys that would intentional damage roads to force people to break rules so they can get something to chop by catching them? It is Nigeria, mate.

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@Sagamite if you were referring to other states i might take that whole infrastructure arguement as a serious one but you paint a picture of a state that has left things the way they are and just put these fines to make money because the standards are unattainable. However knowing that infrastrucure is being seriously addressed i won'tt be so quick to paint the picture you want to paint. Why not ask wirinet about the numerous rehabilitation projects that have been completed and those that are going on? Are the standards that unattainable though? Is it so hard to not abandon your car or overload it? Are the rules that ridiculous? Don't drive one way, wow that really is difficult. What wirinet narrated was an example of the system being easily abused because its implementation leaves a lot of room for this. I have not dispeled this fact and have said the success of such lies in its implementation. I was not in the car so i cannot state authoritatively. However the fines i will continously state seem at this point necessary to me.

When i say 'at this point', i mean at the point whereby there is not yet a tight nationwide system to properly identify cars etc, so taking registeration numbers might not be so succesful. Also the situation is not yet at the point where there are cameras everywhere. That could be worked on right now so what is going to happen at the interim with all the new roads springing up to ease traffic then? Continued breaking of the law from all directions? Even if there were cameras everywhere then you will have a situation whereby the police will be overswamped with offenders because people flout these laws like no mans business, why? Partly because the deterrent is not in place. Taking of licence points as was suggested earlier is just silly when the system is not in place to check this. Even if cameras are put everywhere as people have suggested, a deterrent is still needed to instill a better road safety culture.

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This is a perfect example of my point that this whole thing is two ways.

How dare you request a fine for a one way offence when you have not even created the signs yet. NO SIGN, NO FINE!

How can an authority not implement a system that makes it easy to pay fines then also fines you for lateness of payments?

If you want western style sanity from consumers then you should provide western style infrastructure. You can't have a pothole bigger than a Baghdad suicide bomber's crater for over 15 years and then complain when people decide to drive on the better road rather than wait 3 hours to pass a place that should take them 10 mins. Even though they are wrong, the madness is a reaction to the mad actions of the authorities (who funnily now think they are entitled to fine these people).

As far as I am concerned, these fines should only apply to roads that have been conducively repaired, reasonably signposted and marked with traffic lines even if they can't put a yellow fever or traffic light.

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LOL, @Sagamite you claim i did not read the document but i think you might be guilty of that. First of all at what age in Nigeria does the law begin to regard a person as an adult? So out of all the fines in the document is it only the driving against traffic fine you are against? What is the point of a deterrent exactly? And just to show that this seems to have been considered did you actually notice that all the other fines have what seems to be a fixed fine payment, however in only the one way driving does it state that the fine is not to exceed a certain ammount, did you not see that? What do you gather from that then? It seems to me it is up to the disposition of the officer and actually shows that this particular issue was thought of, it seems more severe in the sense that it involves passengers because for such a dangerous traffic offence (as i have continuously stated) it is common practise. However you paint the picture of teenagers getting fined which we both know is simply not going to be the case considering they are not regarded as adults under the law. So what about people who habour criminals that are liable to prosecution for doing so, could they not also be regarded as "passengers"?

Is the system open to abuse when put in a Nigerian context? Of course it is. But does that then make the problems the fines themselves? What i just did not get was the shock and horror factor attatched to the fines at the first page.  I simply did not get that, it is as if we were all living in denial as to how bad and dangerous the Nigerian style of driving is and how it continously causes traffic due to inconsiderate and toutish driving. It is just complete lawlessness. Can the fines be regarded as steep? Of course they are, but if it is going to make people more cautious when driving then i will not dismiss it considering how bad driving actually is.

Considering that this is Nigeria and lagos we are talking about, with the level of disregard for others on the road and the obscene height it has reached we can't just without putting a system to seriously deter people in place expect people that are used to the chaos to automatically behave. Something has got to give.

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Something tells me that if you had thought this through you will realise that when a fine is imposed for a driver under the instruction of his big man, then the big man would be most likely picking up the bill anyway as it is his car that would be impounded. Hence the silly passenger liability law should be redundant.

But with this silly passenger liability law that you support for ONLY ONE scenario, we have a wide variety of situations where it can be misapplied but you still see sense in it.

Law enforcement is the responsibility of authorities NOT a passenger.

Na real wah for una.

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Sky Blue, honestly I still am struggling to understand your argument about one party being fined for another party's act.

Did you even bother to read the document well?

Can't you see that the passenger fines only apply to NON-COMMERCIAL VEHICLES?

Some of you guys need to stand understanding the wider perspective of law defining and the entirety of implications that might derive from setting a law in a certain way. So are you telling me that if a young boy or girl (lets say 20 yrs old) takes a free ride from a neighbour or relative (lets say 50 yrs old) that they hold in the usual african reverence (or even fear) and this neighbour/relative breaks this laws, it is fair to fine the youth for the adults acts that is out of their control? WHAT DA F! I don't understand this reasoning.

"encourage passengers to stop drivers from breaking the law"!!! What kind of reasoning is this! You are telling me you support authorities in passing their responsibilities to passengers?

What next? All passengers in a plane would be arrested if one is found transporting drugs? Or everyone walking on a street would be arrested for not encouraging one pedestrain from dropping litter?

This thinking is beyond me.

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@texazzpete when did i ever casually allow that the law be abused by policemen and how? I have on numerous occassions had the Nigerian Police Experience and rituals of "thanksgiving" and "offering time" at illegal police "check points". You were so quick to point out that the system is open to abuse by the police and i stated that it has been open to abuse by Nigerians too. What you don't seem to see is that again, your problem is with the implementation of the fines and how it can be abused, but with the lower fines that have been in place and continuosly abused. My suggestion for this is that people inform the government with regards to this and i have stated on previous posts what could be addressed about the implementation so i won't repeat.

So exactly which law among the listed ones are you worried about? Is it that easy for the police to fake that your car was abandoned if it was not parked by the express way? What about overloading? What about one way driving on the express way which does occur? The thing is that if the fines are reduced as i have continuosly stated what makes you think it won't just be a matter of reduction of bribes whereby people will be more willing to risk breaking the law because they know the bribe is less? You yourself know how crazy the road system is, as long as signs are put up and the public is well informed about the whole issue and fines are paid to latma (or even better the government) not its officials then i am fine with this. If well implemented, by the time the fines has shocked order into the system and enough time has passed then the fines can be reduced.

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@Sky Blue

You don't live in Nigeria, do you?

I mean, it's curious that you casually allow that the law could easily be abused by policemen. If you were on the receiving end of any attempted extortion, you'd see that paying N250000 when you're innocent is pretty galling.

At least in the UK they have surveillance cameras or tickets that are physcially issued.

Don't get me wrong; i'm all for public decency. I even had cause to dwell on this matter 2 days ago when i spent three hours in hold up because of drivers illegally forming a third lane, blockin goff part of the incoming traffic. I've voted for the ban on spraying money during weddings and a total ban on street parties. But i'm not keen on any system that can be abused easily. At least with harsh fines (not the draconian ones) the deterrence is still in place with the added benefit of having a not-too-high opportunity cost if you're hit by these lawless policemen.

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@texazzpete now we are definately going round in circles lol. You keep on bringing up reasons of how the implementation will fail without actually bringing up solid reasons as to how the fine itself would not if properly implemented serve as a means of scaring people into being more cautious and doind the right thing. You keep on using excuses of how there is room for the police and officers to abuse such a system without aknowledgng that Nigerians also always find ways to abuse the system too. You reason that if the fine was reduced then people will be more inclined to pay. What makes you think if it was 1000Naira fine that people won't pay the officers 500Naira bribe or are you just speaking for yourself?

I still don't see the problem with the fine and have stated numerous times that its success lies in its implementation and aggressive info campaing to inform the public of the way these fines are to be implemented, etc. Yes it is if allowed very easy for such a system to be abused by not just the police officers but also by the citizens and drivers. Take some responsibility too.

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a large percentage of people driving one-way isn't how you painting it as taking another road during hold-up. it could be something as easy as driving down a road that was improperly marked or with the one-way marker removed. You think claiming innocence here will buy you any relief from lastma then?

A friend of mine came into lagos from the Uk and fell victim to this. He's spent three years away in the UK. He had to shell out 30 pounds to go scot free.

I myself have been in a car in Benin that fell into this kind of trap. We entered a road only for police to jump out claiming the road was 'one-way' we had to part with N5000 before going on.

There's potential for abuse. The more the fine, the higher the bribe the Police office knows he can demand for.

Finally: Previously, when you're arrested for frivolous reasons like that you could do the right thing and insist on going to the station to pay the fine. at least then the official fine would be only a few thousand more than the amount being extorted, but you'd have the pleasure of not allowing one greedy policeman to eat your cash.

now, that strategy is clearly not an option. Cue in policemen demanding for N50000 bribe or else you face paying N250000 officially.

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the Lagos state government should start penalising drivers for unnecessary/excessive honking!!

the noise level in Lagos is just crazy

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@texazzpete you want to compare paying very stiff fines which is used as a deterrent for easily potentially fatal road behaviour with beheading and you think that is a fair comparison given the context?

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@Skyblue

My point is a stiff fine worked without being overly draconian.

Singapore is clean, yes, but they could have achieved the same result by beheading anyone found guilty of dumping gum on the roads.

A recent bill in the Senate to arm the National Civil Defense corps was narrowly shot down. While many senators followed your school of thought that more armed deterrent would serve to reduce crime, Many others were rightly concerned at the thought of arming poorly trained recruits of unknown mental stability and sending them out on the streets.

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@texazzpete i don't think just because it is done somewhere else becomes an automatic precedence for Nigerians to follow however since you needed to mention singapore, so how much is $500 in naira? And all for spitting out chewing gum? And now how clean is the place?

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Even if we debate this matter till eternity the truth is that government has made up its mind.

They have started mass awareness campaigns and my sincere advice to all is to

"AVOID ANYTHING IN THE COLORATION OF THESE OFFENSES". .

A friend of mine recently had his bus towed away by government. It will either be crushed in EPE or he needs to cough out a handsome N50,000 to reprocess the bus.

He was given ample time to comply but, like every Nigerian he said they cannot do such.

See what is happening with the enforcement of the BRT lane matter.

What we need to do is try to help enforce these new laws by educating friends and relatives.

We are too quick to analyze, criticize and say how this and that won't work.

We all need a change of mindset.

A majority of Nigerians are guilty of this one way driving offense.

I BELIEVE SOMEONE WHO PAYS THE FINE ONCE OF TWICE WILL HAVE A SERIUOS RETHINK THE NEXT TIME HE WANTS TO DRIVE AGAINST TRAFFIC.

EKO ONI BA JE!!

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Yes that is why the adult that commited the crime should be the one to be punished not the authorities passing their responsibility to the passenger.

What next? The police would arrest everyone in a neighbourhood that has just been robbed because the residents didn't stop the crime?

The state has its reponsibilities and has no right to pass it to anyone with a threat of a fine.

The boldly highlighted text says it all. You are going to trust the disposition of someone that is paid N20K or less a month on potential avenues to enrich himself and provide for his family?

I have a problem with the whole concept not just passenger fines in cases where the authorities cannot provide and have not provided conducive transport infrastructure and planning.

You must be joking!

What is not going to happen? A chance to LASTMA guys to charge double (mother and son) and make more for themselves?

That 'harbouring criminal' analogy does not work for me, mate. If it was a case of a passenger shielding the driver from fine payment then i would say the analogy works.

This is what I have been trying to tell you. All the boldly highlighted phrases above are INDUCED by the imcompetence of the authorities that leads to lack of transport amenities and lawful behaviour.

We are not born mad. People in Benin Rep don't drive like us despite being next door and having almost the same blood and gene like us. Their infrastrusture is better and road markings/signs exist to INDUCE sanity.

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@wirinet again all you have stated is problem with the implementations not the fines themselves. And yet again even if we have both agreed that leaders of the country have ben lawless to say the least you still want to use this as a justification for wrong doing.

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Skyblue

I want to dispel a lot of wrong notions that you have;

If the fines are reasonable and payable, people with rather pay than bribe. Let me give you one example, of when i decided not to bribe.

I was going for a 8:30 appointment one morning at V/I, I was leaving surulere through stadium. At the bus stop opposite stadium, the danfo drivers had blocked the side road turning right, so i went straight towards stadium gate and turn sharp right joining cars coming from under the bridge (opposite Teslim Balogun Stadium). Immediately I turned LASMA officials from hiding jumped in front of my car, I stopped and asked what is happening. They said I took one way, i explain that it was not one way, they insisted it was. I said they should show me the sign. They said it has just been declared one way and the sign was not ready. I was so enraged that i decided not to bribe. They impounded my car,

then a tow van came from under the bridge to tow my car. I insisted on driving to their office and that their men should enter my car, they refused. Now the distance from Stadium to their office at Iponri is less than 2km. About 30m from their office the tow van broke down and i had to drive the remaining distance. After entering their office, i was given a fine of N5,000 for driving one way and N2,500 for towing of my car. I complained to every senior officer that i could fine with no avail. I was also informed that my fine will increase by N500 per day that my car spends on their office.

To pay the fines, I had to go to GTB Ikeja to get a teller (by taxi of course), then take the teller to Alausa to get a release letter, before coming back to Ipronri to get my car. By the time I got back to Iponri, it was already 4:00pm, and they close at 4, so i had to bribe to get my car out or else i would have come back the next day.

So when i say i would rather pay a bribe of N5,000, i know the trauma of paying fines in lagos

Another wrong notion is that the ruling elite can be lawless while asking the ordinary people to be lawful. Let me state categorically that:- A SOCIETY IS AS LAWFUL AS ITS LEADERS.

In england a minister can be in Jail for a mere traffic offense, In the US a senator can go to jail for an unappropriated behavior (sex). So the ordinary citizens dare not break the law.

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@wirinet, this is the thing, the understandable frustration which one can easily feel about the Nigerian situation has led you to justify wrong doings because people higher up are not punished. The fact that people like Odilli, Ibori, etc are walking free pains me a lot, it really does. Howver, does that automatically make black become white? Does that automatically make wrong become right? You say if the fine become 5000Naira and is enforced strictly then all would be OK, so what makes you think Lastma officers won't want to take 3000Naira bribe? And i find it amusing that you can compare a situation whereby the driver of a car you are in can go purposely drive against traffic endangering everyone and you sit there and say nothing or absolve yourself of any responsibility and liken such with witnessing a murder. Are you actually making that comparison? Yes you are right, they are EXACTLY thesame thing, LOL. You know what i mean but if you want to be coy then fine.

The fact that you say you rather pay 5000Naira illegally than pay 50000Naira legally says a lot about the Nigerian situation, does that mean you will be keeping 5000Naira in your pocket for when you want to break the law? The fact that such a fine can traumatise people shows that it is having the desired effects. With the rampant undisciplined and unruly behaviour that has become the norm, such fear and trauma into doing the right thing might be necesary. It is just the system of implementation that needs to be fine tuned. One easy way of doing this is if Lastma officials themselves can be fined and charged whenever they offer anyone an easy way out by bribery. That is just me brainstorming but i am sure people paid to come up with these idead can come up with much better systems to make sure the implementation is sucessful. AFTER sanity has been shocked or flogged back into existence THEN the fines can be reduced. Again i say it is the implementation and not the fines that are the problem.

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Skyblue

Yes i understand there is a problem of implementation, but the exorbitant fines itself would defeat its implementation. i would rather pay N5,000 illegally than pay N50,000 legally. All the new fines would do in increases the illegal fines for traffic offense (real or concocted) from the present N500 to N3,000 (depending on thew severity of the violations to between N5,000 to N10,000. the traffic officers would be doing thanksgiving because of the new law now.

Skyblue, if the fines are N5,000 and enforced religiously without "partia" i am sure it would have its desired effect.

About fining passengers, why stop with passengers, why do u not charge a withness to a murder with the murderer for not stopping the murder. What about tax evaders, criminals and 419, in fact it should be written in our constitution, any body that witnesses a crime and does nothing to stop it is liable for the crime.

Nigeria only punishes ordinary people for petty crimes, the Yerimas of the world are in the senate, while the Jaga's have their hand chopped off for stealing a goat. Also it is only in Nigeria that a court would find that an election is massively rigged, but the riggers are not liable for punishment, now which is a more serious crime to a society, election rigging(treason) or traffic violations.

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I thought i am through with this post, but the same old silly argument keeps cropping up.

Skyblue, your arguments are warped, it does not make legal, social or even intellectual sense, i think you and your supporters are having "Military" hangover for the past 9 years.

Let Start by informing you that i have lived in Lagos and have been driving almost daily for the past 22years and have experienced the evolution and effects of traffic laws in Lagos. I had been apprehended and fined (illegal fines of course) so many times, that i have lost count on so many frivolous excuses by almost all the numerous traffic regulation agencies, i believe me I ALWAYS obey traffic laws. I can give you numerous examples, but one of the most annoying one was the one at Ikeja. I was on my way to Iyana Ipaja though Ikeja, I was trying to link the Oshodi express way from the link road from Ikeja Bus stop. When i a big sign with three arrows pointing right in front after the council, I was not sure what it meant, i was not sure whether to go straight or turn right. I stopped in the junction, and sighted a yellow fever by the council building, I then stuck my head out of the window and called him, I then asked him if the road was a one way, he answered yes. But the added that he was arresting me. In suprise, i said what for, he then said for taking one way, I was mad, as iwas still in the junction and had not even crossed the junction yet. He got into my car, called the rest of his colleagues, and order that i enter the council building.

I resisted leading to a fight, with passer's bye interferring. At the end of the day i parted with N1000 before i was let go. This is just one example, I have too many.

Now for the law itself;

It is only a mad man that expects a different effect from the same action under the same conditions.

Ten years ago, the fines were barely N1000 and the argument was that the fines are too small and it does not discourage offenders, so it was hiked to about N5000, and every other year it is hiked further. The present one is between N10,000 to N25,0000 and an offender is to undergo psychological evaluation (costing a further N5,0000).

Now has the spade of traffic violations stopped or even reduced? Do you think if the fines is hiked to N200,000, the situation would improve? I am waiting for the result of this latest hike.

What pains me most is the bashing the poor average Nigerian faces. He is blamed for everything that befall nigeria, he is blamed for corruption, lawlessness, etc meanwhile the actual people causing all our problems go unpunished. Have you ever heard or seen a big man being held for mere traffic violations in Nigeria. No in Nigeria, a "BIG MAN" is above

the law.

The annoying thing is that Nigerian believe that Law is an end unto itself, so lawyers argue letters and words of the law, leaving out the essence and what the law was meant to correct.

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@somze the whole point of raising railway tickects was the fines a passenger is liable to if they are found without a ticket. You keep saying things like 'people break traffic laws in UK just like any other place in the world'. That right there, i just don't get it. Can you really compare driving in lagos and Nigeria in general to any other normal place on the planet that is not a film set? Even if, which i seriously doubt is possible, does that make it ok? It is horrendous. I think that is where we differ. If a situation is deemed drastic then people will be more willing to accept drastic measures but you don't even see how bad traffic violations really are in Nigeria. You might need to experience it again. I did not mention those laws to use as defence for others been liable, but to cut this whole illusion that these fines are ridiculous or too hefty, since some people won't accept anything unless you say it is also as hefty in "the west".

I keep referring to the intent of the law because that is what i seem to see whereas you see something else. People should take responsibility for their actions and in the case of taxi and bus drivers or even drivers of 'big men', passengers should also take responsibility and be more concerned at the way they reach their destination. It is like people who want to be enviromentally consious that demand that companies whose services they patronise should take more responsibility in doing their bit for the environment. Such a culture of demanding better from people in control in Nigeria (in this case the driver) DOES NOT EXIST. Nigerians don't care as long as they can eat or they might get there faster. It is so shameful. This law is meant to force people to do that, except this case it is to force passengers to tell whoever is driving there vehicle not to be so silly as to drive one way driving.

Can you imagine? Does that not show or tell you how screwed up things really are that a passenger has to be forced to tell their drivers not to drive on the other side of the road? Just think about that for a second, it goes to show how normal such a phenomenom is and you want to compare this with other places in the world? LOL. You make it seem as if the passenger is liable for every other offence which is not true. The passenger becomes liable for ONE WAY DRIVING only. Drastic? perhaps. But if it is going to force people to do such, if it is going to force people to question and demand an iota of sanity or to patronise people to state the obvious by telling their drivers "please don't drive on the other side of the road so you don't run a child over" (CAN YOU IMAGINE), then i am for it. Get involved.

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"non-big men" who are mere passengers in the car they are in and have no say in the matter.

All the fines you raised in the UK ONLY affect the offender and NO one else.

I also don't understand how passenger tickets make you abide by railway laws. You may want to explain that one.

In UK, people break Traffic laws like every other place in the world and they are rules to purnish the offender and deter people from engaging in such. These rules are strictly for the offender.

Let's take CCTV for example, if your car is caught breaking a traffic law and points were to be deducted, they would be deducted from you of course. But say you were not the one driving the car at the time and you remember who was driving it, authorities will deduct it from the person not you irrespective of the car ownership.

Lagos new traffic law does not address this case where the passenger has nothing to do with the car or the driver (ownership does not exist). Hence the case of vicarious liability. Why this law even saw the light of day is beyond me. Do we really have lawmakers in Nigeria? What does the house of Assembly, Reps and Senate do?

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@somze if you must UK as an example, UK where drivers respect traffic laws in comparison with Nigeria, UK where people don't drive against traffic as a norm, i could go on, but if you must use UK as an example whereby a system is put in place to "encourage" people to comply with the law, then why not familiarise yourself with fines used to "encourage" people not to smoke in public? Why not familiarise yourself with the hefty fines used to "encourage" people not to drink in public designated 'no alcohol' zones? Why not familiarise yourself with fines used to "encourage" people to abide by railway laws, eg buy tickets? Should i go on? Familiarise yourself with all of that and also use places like Toronto and New York or other places where spitting chewing gum on the floor makes you liable to a fine. So even if such places did not have those laws then you won't see the situation in lagos for what it is? Terrible to say the very least and hence deserving of drastic measures? I think this arguement is getting futile. However i will only advice you on this, when next you want to drive on lagos roads and your driver on either bus or car or taxi or whatever feels like endangering the lives of everyone to get you to skip traffic that everyone else is enduring also, "encourage" such a driver not to, not because we had this arguement and you agreed with me, but because you will if caught get fined!!!  Good Day.

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@wirinet go to the first page before you castigate me. If you want to make this about the enforcement of the fines themselves then fine, i understand and i am with you on that. I believe the way these fines are implemented is what is going to make a break the sucess of its intentions. I believe that a very aggressive campaign should be made to inform the public and that it is made clear that the fines are payable to the office of latsma and not to officers so that when you are confronted to pay up you can confidently challenge the officers. This i have already stated earlier and is what you are actually arguing. Where in the law does it say you pay the fines to officers? This is something that the authorities or governor can be contacted about so as to add clarity to the fines and their implementation because it is still not quite clear how these fines are to be implemented. Can you confidently say you know how the fines are to be implemented? If everyone is informed about how it is supposed to be implemented THEN we can now start shouting fair or unfair and we can confidently challenge officer who want to add jara to the law and implementation. However for the fines themselves, i understand the intentions and i am not against them. again, the sucess lies in the implementation.

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@ somze

I guess the issues of including the passangers is because most ' big ' men on Lagos roads are passagers in their cars. They are not just ordinary passangers, they are the ones controlling the innocent drivers.

Laws are supposed to have a feel of the context in which it is being applied. How many people have drivers in UK?

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@somze i think you are just not reading my posts. You used the drunken scenario to try to prove a point that if a drink driver with passengers flouts the law and gets an accident then it is the driver that should be held responsible, i used that same scenario to state what you and i already know that in the Nigerian context flouting of traffic laws is seen as normality up to the extent that far from being discouraged it is actually in most cases just ignored or encouraged by passengers in a car. Whether the passenger owns the car or not is not the issue. You keep on throwing at me how you level of reasoning is such simple logic that if i cannot see it then i must be illogical. That is fine i don't really care if you see me as being illogical but i won't just agree with you on an issue i just can't see from your side with the arguement you have stated. The intent of that law is to encourage people who are not driving (the passengers) to also demand that drivers in vehicles they are in desist from the blatant and fatal stupidity that is one way driving.

If you are in a car or vehicle in which the driver is doing this you have the option of either demanding such stupidity is refrained from (which is the intent of this law) or to tell the driver to stop so you can get out of the car and hence you as a passenger does not become liable. In this context it was so obvious to me that the law was targeted at danfoe and molue and other bus drivers who just cause such a nuissance on Nigerian roads in general. In such context it is obvious that the fine we speak of is put there to encourage passengers of commercial vehicles and non commercial vehicles to demand compliance from their drivers. And please stop using New York or wherever as an example as such places don't see the level of disregard for law as Nigerian roads witness. Drastic situation seems to have understandably invited drastic measures and deterrents from such selfish, toutish, irresponsible and fatal behaviours.

 

I don't know how else to put it. We both read the same law on the first page, you saw red and daylight robbery, i saw a very strong deterrent which might be necessary in order to install order in the road chaos that is in lagos and Nigeria. I am tired of repeating thesame thing over and over again so i won't. With this continued line of arguement you make i don't believe i need to say anything else that i have not already stated in previous posts so take it or leave it. Have a nice day.

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Dis is more than highway robbery and a right bleeping rip off!

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You seems to be the only person reading this post before replying or its simply the other way round

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The whole thing is a sham.

Like I said earlier, this is just a means to reach the N15billion a month revenue, the Governor wants each month.

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It's easy to sit behind a PC and applaud this move - until you realise you're entrusting the implementation of a draconian law on the Nigerian police - a body that has been known to arrest people for wandering, and keep them locked up for months on end.

Many of you are sitting down in a country where the burden of proof of guilt is on the police and are celebrating the passing of a draconian decree in a country where the burden of proof is on the accused. There are cameras in the US and the UK. there are NONE in nigeria. It's your word against that of a police 'officer'. Guess who's got the short end of the stick?

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The prosecutor still needs to make the case for Vicarious Liability.

I've seen lots of cases where a junior worker was held liable for his actions, even when common sense will point to the fact that those actions may have been influenced by his superior.

This law leaves no room for such. It is more like a military decree - If you do so and so, then pay fine.

There was no bill on this, no evidence that the House of Assembly deliberated on it too.

How can such a law be put into practice when it fails to even meet the standard set by its institution?

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In certain circumstances,vicarious liability will apply to make liable the owner of a vehicle for the conduct of a driver using the vehicle for the owner's purposes.

Beyond that,I think its absurd to hold passengers liable for a driver's malfeasance.

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I have reduced the empty logic used in the first page to the rubble it truly is. You may want to see my reply in the first page.

Perhaps you know so little about the law. Only the driver breaks the law NOT and NEVER the passenger.

You can go through case after case and the results would be the same whether it was driving against traffic, drunk driving or manslaughter charges (knocking down pedestrian). You can check it out for yourself.

To make it elementary enough for you, consider this scenario - A couple of friends are drunk, driving back home from the club. The driver loses control of the vehicle and crashes into another vehicle killing the vehicle's driver instantly. Who will be punished? Or better still how many people will be punished?

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@somze the issue about taxing passengers was already discussed on the first page. It might be obvious to you that the scheme is to generate revenue but to me it isn't. To me it is obvious that the scheme is there do deter people from breaking the law. If you don't want to enrich the state and add to the increase in revenue then it is simple. Don't break the law.

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It is obvious this law was made to increase revenue and nothing else.

Nigerians will never see a situation for what it is.

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with the way the danfo guys park indiscriminately on an expressway to pick passengers, who would be blamed for that?

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corruption has not affected us only in monetary terms but also in our activities. Most of our 'calamities' are caused by us.

the truth is that I must pray e'time while driving 'cos both the educated and non-educated have less differences on Lagos roads. Impatience will kill some of 'em. Traffic laws are written for whoever feels like reading 'em. Thank Goodness, there's LASTMA or else, our roads woulda become war zones!

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@deor03

[center]NO BETTER WAY TO SUMMARIZE THIS MATTER.

THANK YOU![/center]

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Have you seen where a driver driving on one-way caused accidents, killing innocent people?

Have you seen where an overspeeding driver killed people, senselessly?

Do you have access to the number of people killed by wrong and careless driving?

How much is 250,000 compared to a human life? Laws are meant to be deterrant.

Not taking that one-way because of avoiding 250,000 fine could save someone's life. Funny enough that person could be you.

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I have not issues with fining drivers.

MY ISSUE IS WITH PUNISHING PASSENGERS

What do you have to say about that?

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There is no law on earth that makes one person liable for an offense took NO part in.

If I witness a man being murdered how does it make me an accomplice to murder?

If a driver drives against traffic, my opinion as a passenger is irrelevant unless the law can prove that I not only own the car but controlled the driver's decision.

Even if I advised the driver against breaking the law how does this new law protect me if he went against my wish? This law was probably done in a hurry.

Passengers should not be held responsible for a driver's error.

If your driver knocks down a pedestrian should you be held legally responsible for that too?

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@Sky Blue

Thank you my brother. I do not understand why our people like to defend wrong things even they know the wrong in them.

Help ask him o!.

In my own opinion again, I believe no nonNigerian can solve our problems for us. We do not need to copy laws from other countries.

We are know that most Nigerians will never do the right thing unless someone stands behind them with a koboko. So laws specific to Nigeria should be enacted to save this nation.

Have you notice that even when ou travel to other states the first people to begin driving on the other side of the road most times are Lagos divers?

All the people I have discussed this matter with are in full support of the development.

Recently, the landlord s association on my street decided to ask all the people (90% of them do not even live on the street) trading along the road on my street to leave. They have so narrowed the street that there is always log jams in the mornings.

The next thing is that people are complaining that "we" want to stop them from living.

Is that the issue? The issue is you are blocking free flow of traffic and the setback have been reclaimed by the gulty landlords.

They trade and make money, they do not pay tax and will not go a hire a shop.

Only God will deliver this nation O!

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standing at the risk of sounding prejudiced, i would like to fault the reasoning of Texaspete on this issue.

exactly what are you driving at?

that those mad drivers in Lagos should be let off the hook with lesser penalties?

or that the Lagos state government does not have the right to administer laws that aim to serve our lives?

or that you have lost your ability to reason objectively?

or you just have nothing to say?

i am confused dude!

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