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Self Determination In Africa - What Makes European Countries So Special? >:(

I always have had a problem why European nations can get self determination, but when it comes to Africa, we can't.

Kosovo is such a small nation, in which some of our minority tribes like the Ijaw have a bigger population than the population of Kosovo, yet when an African people want self-determination, the whole world says we can't

Why must we keep our colonial borders?

Don't we all see that most African nations have not seen progress since independence but actually has gotten worse.

Let us have a non-tribalistic discussion so[b] ignore people who will want to derail this thread [/b]and make it the usual Igbo v. Yoruba nonsense.

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YOU are a part of the problem, see here, http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-485379.0.html

just like your african leaders WHO have SOLD your countries RESOURCES off to the LOWEST bidder. while they run off rich and 99,.% of you all stay poor.

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I fully support the idea of re-drawing African maps for the benefit of Africans. We need our version of the Berlin conference. There is no ethnic supremacy in the idea. Africans will forever be slaves in their own continent until they learn to make their decisions instead of relying on decisions made by European colonial masters. There are certain ethnic nations that are very compatible with each other while there are some that have no business running the same government with eachother. Its just plain common sense but then again common sense is not very common to a lot of us. Just like EzeUche pointed in the East, Igbo, Efik-Ibibio, Ogoni, Ijaw, Idoma, Igala, certain South Western Cameroonian nationalities and Urhobo have a lot in common, share the same/similar way of traditional governance, market days (some), linguistics, etc.

The Nupe, Gwari, Hausa, Kanuri, Fulani (in Nigeria, Niger, northern Cameroon, as far as Senegal) and Jukun can be together.

The Bini, Yoruba (both n Nigeria and Benin with other related ppl), Ebira, Itsekiri can be together.

The nations that don't seem to be having issues like Nigeria, Sudan, Cameroon have nothing to worry about.

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I guess the creation of Kosovo, the Scottish parliament, the Welsh parliament, the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the Southern Sudan referendum and the Irish nationalists also remind you of Adolf Hitler, right? Please tell me if they do and also tell me how they have been influenced by the same man.

By the way, how does the Third Reich compare to a struggle for self determination? Who on this thread planned to take over the world and establish a racial hierarchy, or are we just pulling out any word to cause fear? Lebensraum, did you even read up on the plan and did you think hard before seriously insulting someone by comparing them to Hitler?

The dissolution of these African countries has already begun with Sudan. You’re scared of change like many other African people, but it will happen regardless of your attitude. No one is going to wait for you in a country that over looks the murder of 500 of its citizens, and nobody will wait for you when these countries finally reach their planned destination, which is civil war. People are tired and the amount of calls for a break up would never be heard in a secure country that will supposedly be ‘one forever’. Get ready because the ‘reich’ is coming.

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Ok maybe not traditional borders, but I think people who have similar cultures, history and maybe language should have their own nation. Let me use two examples. In the East as you know, Igbo culture is similar to the cultures of the Idoma, Igala, Ibibio, Efik and Ijaw. Why not form our own nation with these groups?

In Ghana, the Akan people may answer to their respective groups like the Asante, Fante, Akyem etc, but they all speak the same Akan language which is Twi even though they are made up of different languages. Why shouldn't they form their own nation?

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Mono-ethnic domination? You have to be kidding. I hope you are. We already have somewhat of mono-ethnic domination in Nigeria in our respective regions. Yorubas in the southwest, Igbos in the East and the Hausa-Fulani in the north. That already exist.

How can be an ethnic supremacist when my own heritage is made up off different Eastern groups. I consider myself an Aro Igbo, but my mother is Ibibio. Which is another distinct group in the East. I do not see my group as superior to anyone else and I respect the rich diversity that is found not only in Nigeria, but in Africa in general.

You are afraid of my views, because you know many people believe it, but don't voice it. Why do you think the people of Southern Sudan want a referendum? Why do you think the Oromo people of Ethiopia are fighting for their own homeland. Why do you think MEND and other militant groups in the Niger Delta fight the government? Why do you think the Somalis living in Ethiopia and Kenya want to be united with their Somali brothers in Somalia?

Many people have my views. Ghadaffi voiced them and people lampooned him. Africans wonder why the continent is not progressing and this is the main reason.

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@EzeUche,

I maintain though that we have to be careful when we talk about going back to "traditional borders." The times we live in now are much different than the times our ancestors grew up in. Geographies have changed, and in some areas, demographics. For instance, to return to "traditional borders," Bosnian Serb soldiers massacred 8000 Bosniaks in Srebrenica, just so they could gain a homogeneous area of Serbs stretching from the Serbian border to the town.

Creating opportunities for trade and dialog with other tribes may be a much better way to facilitate the type of change that our continent needs. Even, we may be able to utilize the connections created by dealing with other tribes and ethnicities - much as Ndi Aro did, but in a positive way.

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I blame this problem on the amalgamation of 1914 by Lord Luggard everyday. Curse his name!

We don't like each other. It can be clearly seen on these threads.

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Could it  be that the main issues you have with extant political system in Nigeria is that it does not  really foster mono-ethnic domination? So from the point of view of an ethnic supremacist as yourself such a system must be intolerable.

Fortunately such disgruntled elements are a very small minority in Nigeria in particular and Africa in general. Consequently your vision for Africa is a total non-starter

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Now see, this is what you should have posted in your previous reply, it would have given us a bit more perspective and kept things clear. I am sorry if I came off a bit brash. To be honest, I wholeheartedly agree with the need to create free-trade zones and lines of communication.

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How can you compare fascist Germany to what I am envisioning for Africa? All across the world, you have countries that basically share the same culture, history and to some extent language.

There is nothing retrogressive about going back to the source. Breaking things into pieces, so that you can bring them back together.

When a master painter starts off his painting and sees that it doesn't look right, he starts over again and tries to create a masterpiece.

You can disagree with me, but do not ever attack a people's right to self-determination.

Which is also enshrined into the UN's Declaration of Human Rights.

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Instead of throwing insults, debate me. I had no intention in propagating a hate-filled agenda. Whenever a discussion of this nature comes to the forefront, people like yourself get scared of the unknown.

Why is Africa different? The colonial made borders that we are supporting has caused nothing but heartache. Why not go back to our traditional boundaries?

It would seem that you are a supporter of the European version of Africa. I am not. In order to have progress, we must go back to our traditional borders.

Why keep people in a country in which they do not want to be together? Every group of people have right to self-determination. To determine their own destiny.

And I'll be damn if someone tries to take away that right.

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^^I thought that you yourself had already outlined the blueprint for economic development in your first reply. We are talking about things like the establishment of free trade zones and the development of lines of communication within Africa that would facilitate such trade.

So we would envisage cities and towns within Africa becoming more and more multicultural and multiethnic in such a scenario.

On the other hand talking about creating mono-ethnic fiefdoms throughout Africa is just retrogressive and reactionary and reminds me of Adolf Hitler and his doomed Lebensraum policy.

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What then is less maniacal, the African continent remaining in its current state, stagnant and devoid of economic will? Even in your disagreement, you could have at least laid out clearly what you thought was wrong with his approach, while remaining in the spirit of dialog and keeping things cordial. But the most you could do was throw adjectives at him. So this is my say: whereas he had one, you have no solutions; and perhaps hell itself will freeze over if the future of Africa is to be governed by men with no foresight.

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@Rethink:

I used Nigeria as an illustration of the role that intense diversity plays in the underdevelopment of African nations.

The point of my comprehension is on the fact that as long as we remain in Nigeria, in the arrangement that we are presently in, We are going no where. There will continue to be electoral malpractices, Inter-ethnic clashes, ethnic-religious motivated appointments, circulation in a circle without moving forward etc

About your military, Don't be deceived. The Hausa infested Nigerian army can do nothing without the help of foreign military. In fact, a well armed,  disciplined and competent man "O" War unit can defeat the Nigerian army. Go and look at their battles with MEND. They were butchered, drowned and made to beg like babies on their boats and on raided oil platforms. Don't equate Niger-delta militants with Sierra leon and Boko-haram. The Nigerian military is good in places that they are not well known. The MEND fighters were well paid "hungry" unemployed youths that fought to retain their flow of income, well armed and very determined. Imagine if they are joined and boosted by other citizens from the East? And If they are effectively supported in oil exploration and supply of weapons? I don't pray for that because the British will definitely not want to be involved like they did during the civil war. Trust where capitalist America would prefer? At present, the Nigerian army is too unprofessional to deal with tactical brute force.

I respect your view about wanting Nigeria to be one even if it means that we have to be stagnant. You have the right to believe what you want, so I respect that totally.

However, the truth remains that Nigeria has never moved forward, we are not moving forward and we may never move forward if we continue deceiving ourselves in the present union.

Ask yourself why something like electric power seem insolvent despite all the billions poured into it till date, and simple roads cannot be made to be of world class standard. Ask yourself why there must be federal character consideration over competence in everything that Nigerians have to do? Then ask yourself If we are really one, and can we really move forward?

The worst sort of deception is self-deception, cos in such a case, you'd be both the "guy man" and the "maga".

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@justcash

Dont make me laugh Mend are no match for the real Nigerian Army. The Mend you talk about is a compendium of traditional rulers, retired generals and the innocent youths cut accross almost all tribes of Nigeria.

Boko haram was cleared of within 48 hours. The same army went to Sierra leone and cleared out General Paul koroma, we almost ended the liberian war till the power that be put their mouth into it.

The boys that handle the ballistic for Nigeria are multivated by bravery to die for Nigeria, They bring the great name to Nigeria. They are used sometimes by the elite. It was when the "GRADUATES" Started trooping to the army just arround independence Nigerias problem started. The graduates then we children of the ELITE.

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@justcash

I was in nigeria earlier this year and people are not happy at Fashola. The Parasitic elite has organized people against Fashola it has nothing to do with NGBATIOLOGY.,.,.,.,., people are tired of the status quo, some dont want because it helps their parasitism.

The same can be done by other state governors. Fashola wanted to make a difference, He had the chance to continue with theivery but he did not. He demonstrated that he did not need Odua country to prove his point. If you can use what you very well now then your quest for break up would be easy.

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@Justcash

Very true please help me to know who marginalized who?  The Northerner that dies of hunger in the dozen? Oh oh oh am sorry very sorry  the same children of the poor that  cut across all tribes you send to die for nigeria? That dont know what 200,000 naira is?  Please Educate me how culture religion and ethnic background affects us staying together.

If you have the intelligence of a simple animal hmmm lets say a gorilla or an orangutan you will know that even ANIMALS NEED EACH OTHER HENCE WE HAVE WHAT IS CALLED SYMBIOSIS. We have the parasites that live off the host they hate symbiosis, Why? beats me myself. But I think it it is called criminal mind attitude where a people(parasitic elite) believe they must divide for their benefit. They use all kinds of tangibles like language appearance and habits. In Rwanda the Language of the hutu and tutsi was very similar but 800 thousand people were killed, the same traditional leaders and parasitic elite that planted the seed of hate nothing would happen to them.

Because it favours your traditional rulers, They have %age  and their kids born and yet unborn will be secure. The people will get what type of rulers they deserve. When you see the language a man speak as a man's character then your PARASITIC ELITE Kings are happy.

Our traiditional rulers are just paid to use their waist nothing else.

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Agreed the UN voted for them to be recognized as an independent nation. Recognizing somebody as independent and giving independent are two different issues entirely.

But you should know that before this time the Jews were bringing back their people in the thousands. Britain being the colonists was under pressure from the Arabs because of their oil to stop the Jews coming back. Ship loaded with Jews were denied entry into Palestinian waters, that was when the Jews decided to go on hunger strike to gain the sympathy of other nations. So many people sacrificed their lives to actualize the Jewish state. The Zionists believe the land was theirs so why buy. And with their increasing numbers the land wasn't enough for them.

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EzeUche

I never misquoted you. Please check the expression in bold, you can still go back and read what you posted. If your intention was "I think" and inadvertently you typed "I believe" then no problem, everybody makes such.

but on the Israel issue, i beg to defer, if it was created under the Balfour declaration as you said, why wasn't Israel created before 1947? It was after Hitler's massacre that the Jews had renewed determination to go to their homeland. and for your information at first the Jews even bought lands from the Arabs, unusable land which they turned around, but coming to declare a nation was what the Arabs were against which led to the war.

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One of the Single biggest issue that serves as an impediment to the development of African nations is the issue of Ethno-religious marginalization. This is a direct consequence of a huge disparity in Culture, religion and ethnic background.

The Question is, Why must a country with a diverse ethnic composition that serves as an impediment continue to foot drag about the issue of getting a better arrangement that can make their diversity workable?

I will use Nigeria as a case study;

I have heard many people say that Division is not a solution to the problems of Nigeria. The fact remains that Nigeria's unity is a bigger impediment to the resolution of the problems of Nigeria.

How can a nation that claims to be united be continuously bickering about ensuring equity through following ethnic/religious lines, at the expense of qualified Nigerians who are ready and willing to ensure development?

Imagine if there was an Oodua republic, would someone like Fashola have any problem trying to lead the nation, with his credentials as a governor as an evidence? The fact is that he is having a problem doing same as a Nigerian in Nigeria.

There can never be progress in a nation without relative social peace and political stability.

Let us say that Nigeria divides, and there are 1000 nations from it, with some nations as small as 200,000 people, don't you know that the issues of Zoning, Federal character, Religious killings, deliberate marginalization of a section of a nation, appointment of unqualified individuals due to ethno-religious considerations etc that are killing the so-called giant of Africa will cease?

The fact remains that when the people feel recognized, and have a say in their nation's affairs, they work towards it's progress.

Look at Obingwa in Abia state, where the Kidnappers took the journalists to, there is little or no federal government's presence there. They were deprived and unrecognized. So they took to Kidnapping, which they have been doing unabated for long until the journalists were kidnapped. Would such a negligence of an entity be possible in an Igbo nation? This is the same situation I saw in some local governments that I did my NYSC in, in the West. Completely neglected.

If the North is lacking in education, Why slow down the South for them to catch up. Why don't they stay on their own and develop their type of education, at their own pace. Why "Boko haram" for Nigeria as a whole? They have political stability and more advantage in Agriculture than any section of Nigeria.

If Niger-delta has oil, and want to be their own country, why not let them go and do what they want with their oil? Who knows they may bring meaningful development to themselves with the oil

If Igbos feel held back in Nigeria, why not let them go to determine how they want to live? They may actually be able to utilise their commercial expertise to become organised, create jobs and reduce crime.

If Northerners feel that their urge for a Sharia system of governance is proper and impeded by Christians, and that they can't allow infidels to lead them, why don't they go and lead themselves in their own type of system, in peace and harmony?

If Yorubas feel that their development and progress is impeded by the influx of people from other ethnic nations, Why don't they get their own nation and control this influx to ensure their progress? At the end of the day, if a Biafran goes to Oodua republic and commits a crime, the Biafran can be hung/deported or even flogged without raising any ethno-religious questions.

I don't think being together in Nigeria will ever allow us to move forward because Nigeria can be likened to an obese that is being dragged to different directions at the same time by lumps of fat at different parts of his/her body.

Who says that it is not possible to dissolve a nation in Peace? In Nigeria, it will be possible only if every section of the country comes together and agree to do so. Don't bring up the North's military bull crap story, cos the military is nothing without unity. Even in their present composition, they died like ants while trying to crush a ragtag force like MEND.

In conclusion, there is need for the re-organization of African nation's boundaries to ensure cohesion, peace/stability and progress. After all Europeans, North Americans and Asians don't have six heads.

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ileke, please stop posting on ezeuche's thread.

plz.

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As a Christian, I know I've prayed a particular "dangerous" prayer one time in my life, and the result is remarkable.

That prayer is simple: Oh lord break and remold me to your glory.

God is a glorious God, and anything that does not glorify cannot be ascribed to him. Africa needs to be broken and remolded to glorify God. Africa "as is" brings shame to God.

Nigeria needs to be broken and remolded. Only a remolded Nigeria can glorify God.

I don talk my own o!

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The true map of Africa.

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@topic

I know that old parts of western Cameroon wants to secede (at least there was a time they made some noise), it all fizzled out.

If Africa has been advancing alongside other continents of the world, I'm sure this topic would not be so relevant. But, we have almost an arrested development. Even things we used to do before successfully like local community service and values cultivation have been lost in the giant cacophony that is Nigeria.

Even as a kid (I was born after the war), I still remember theater arts works by secondary schools in my area (all in Igbo). We had cultural singing competitions; there was peace and security and no mad rush for money. All of that is dead today, destroyed by the so called center of unity, more like center of evil, because every tribe is losing something in this conundrum. I am sure same thing is happening in some other African countries.

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Is size and population really what they're worried about? If so, they should examine this. . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population

If the numbers on that page are correct, and size and population is really what some Africans worry about, then they should come to know that many groups in Nigeria (in fact, Southeast Nigeria, alone, not to even speak of Nigeria, as a whole) outnumber a vast number of those European countries. Is size and population really what they have to worry about? Even if we reverted back to our 'natural' pre-colonial states, many of our states would still be larger in size and population when compared to many European nations. So is size and population really what they have to worry about?

ezeagu, thank you for that post of yours.

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Yes name the blood thirsty empires and evil kingdoms

Tell us to go back since you failed to seccede try to Psyche us to remember the nostalgia.

I know of the fraud we called our traditional ruler(killers) The betrayers of its people sold its own people as slaves and when they returned some of the slave educated they were eager to give their sons education so that they could live like the white man,

Foolish Nigerians who has bewitched you to think that by spliting first is the only way?

The only way is love for our fellow be it any tribe.

The white man did not need to divide us we were already divided and he just finished us off

The great support that the artist of benin received from the Oba helped to bring out great work. Who would buy benin art now as we speak those colonial house Niggers that you call Traditional rulers?

The same of their kind cut accross all tribe with few exception but now they are now whiter than the white themselves.

Theya are in your civil service.

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ezeagu,

Your words were well spoken! Truer words were never said.

Just seeing the Benin statues just amazes me how advanced we Africans were, and now the sorry state we are in now.

The rich culture of the Oyo Empire, the mighty Ashanti Empire, the Kingdom of Nri and Aro Confederacy, the religious scholarship of Sokoto Caliphate, Ancient Empire of Ghana, Mali and Songhay, Great Zimbabwe, the Zulu, Dahomey, etc. We had thriving kingdoms and empires. Our states were advanced. Our people culture were flourishing, our languages were flourishing, everything was alright!

Then the European came and everything changed. Chinua Achebe's literary masterpiece, Things Fall Apart is a clear illustration. We must reclaim our heritage.

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Rethink, please if you nothing important to say leave the thread for intelligent people. No one has time for ur village talk. Thank you.

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@Ezeagu

you know just turn your computer upside down you will be able to read clearly i forgot you can only read in russian.

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@Ezeuche

What is the name of the bridge abeg. You know Nigeria is not a microcosm of africa. There is this guy he knows how to use cutlass well well just give better cutlass he will cut the whole Africa into self determinantely entities no need for colonial master that you will pay pounds.

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Could you please explain your point, the bold letters does nothing for a clearer explanation.

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I am taking an interlude

AFRICANS DONT LACK IMAGINATION PLEASE PULL YOUR NECK OUT OF YOUR Bottom BECAUSE YOU JUST CONTRADICTED YOURSELF

THE SAME BLOOD HUNGRY SCHNAPP MIRROR CHASING TRADITIONAL RULERS THAT SUPPORTED THE ARTIST OF THOSE ERA TURNED AGAINST AND SOLD A WHOLE GENERATION OF ARTIST TO SLAVE TRADERS THOSE ARE THE SAME ONES SAYING WE SHOULD SELF DETERMINATE?

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@ezeagu

You are truly a really Chief lion. You have to come home for a bonus chieftancy title! ah! you have said correctly

Nigeria have no heritage but you made a mistake(you should have said crime). What about 419 you should have mentioned that! We must make sure we denigrate Nigeria. Gorge is made for the Igbos by the Igbos and High life is not from Ghana it is an Igbo thing. Infact I am dancing high life right. That guy called Victor Olaiya is an Igbo man he changed his name.

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@philip

some people want to self determinate so they need you to support this worthy cause. You may have to carry a gun later but the leader people that want to self determinate says we are sophomoric can you imagine he wanted to rule the country he wanted seccede from?

Yes the yoruba caused it they are cowards with their terrible tribal marks and those cow chasing malams. but we shall come back again with our leader that wanted to rule nigeria. sorry this is about over 500 to 1000 tribes determining to form their own countries in africa am vely solly for that please dont be confused.

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^^^^^

Just use correct sharp cutlass from abiriba those guys sabi use am no be small take cut the thing antago?

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I doubt if africans generally have the patience.foresight and preserverance to do such.We are so much intersted in immediate gratification.

Also some of the precolonial states and goups actually saw themselves differntly back then unlike now.

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@ileke idi

dont let me shoot u with my awka made rifle we discussing selious stuff here and you are protuding your (rotten yam you call amala) filled belly hia. Yoruba man like you donot derail this thread i say,

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@asha

When I deliberately typed AISHA you quickly pointed out that you are not from the north as if I care? You need to look at yourself in the mirror and say I am a Nigerian then come back here and tell me how I have sort to derail the topic of self determination.

Somebody wants to determine itself and I am hoping they do.

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@Ezeuche

I wili agree wity u nna ndi alayin

This thing let us make it vely shortu if u an Northerner just go join ya broda for niger ah shuO leave us with our oyell.

@

Yoruba man: ehen we hafe discofered oil now so are also wanting go ojare

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Ezeuche Spain and Switzerland are not homogenous though

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ikenwa

i think this is what nigeria should be building on

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Rethink i can see you just want to derail this thread.

Ezeuche simpy ignore that guy

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Agreed.

What we should be asking is how do we get back to our pre-colonial states?

It doesn't make any sense that the Hausa are split up among different countries.

I remember hearing a story in which Shagari went to Niger to speak with his counterpart and they had to use interpreters since he spoke English and his counterpart spoke French. Shagari decided that this was nonsense, since they both spoke Hausa so they started conversing in Hausa.

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read the boldened what makes them Homogenous? color or language

They represent the interest of the MARSIANS. Almost missed the "stooges" point.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,xxxxxx are they stooges of Yoruba and Hausa people? Men this Hausa men are very strong. Imagine Ngbatians and Mallam cow chasing abokians with their dead heads doing this?

I can just see Orji Uzor kalu prostrate to an Oba in my village or sorry know he was given the saraudna(or some cooked up name title) of borno state with that thing that osama wears arround his head.

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Please, let's not make this an issue of Biafra vs Nigeria. This is a topic on African self-determination. Yes, I understand that the topic of Biafra is [loosely] tied to this, but this ought not become another shouting contest over Biafra.

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exactly. I'm not sure, but I hope that it's more complex than lack of proper judgment.

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simple. african leaders lack the balls to handle their own affairs. they are weak minded.

Bakassi is good example, we have to go to same people that STOLE and ENSLAVE us to decide who should keep Bakassi??

Did UK went to anyone to determine who own FALKLANDS ISLAND which is 10,000km away from UK?

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First it is asha not aisha and i am not from the north which is what you might think.

First this is about Africa as a whole.Stop narrowing to nigeria.

I do not care about whether oil or no oil so whether you talk to an ughelli guy about oil being found in his back yard has nothing to do with what this thread is all about.

Nobody is talking oil here.

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@aisha80

On the contrary Aisha I am just sharing my view on the matters Arising. Infact this thread is a tribal one and I have my personal view on tribalism

In my prelude I said this thread is a tribal one because you Ezeuche said the basis of self determination should be language. Language is a tribal matter. Now i do believe our languages are very similar but it is very easy to use language to divide nigerian so that the PARASITIC ELITE AND THEIR AGENTS can easily steal the money in a localized manner.

I like to face the truth. The tribal parasitic elites that never raised a finger to fight the white slave masters are saying we want our own countries so that we can steal more.

They say it is better for our tribes man to steal our lands money than some cow chasing Yoruba Yoruba person.

I asked an ugheli guy once that since you guys have oil you are blessed he said " the oil no dey our place" The ughelian speaks Urhobo

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