Babs, please where is the answer to my simple question that the Qur'an came to "correct" the Bible?
I want the verse from the Qur'an.
Babs, please where is the answer to my simple question that the Qur'an came to "correct" the Bible?
I want the verse from the Qur'an.
salam expert & nopuqeater
I am surprised at some folks that tries defending glaring and obvious truth in the guise of looking for the exact 'phrase' and is the more reason I backed out. Some people love sticking to their guns thinking that they are right despite serving them the truth in which pilgrim did and I noticed that she could not say anything to the threads where detailed insight were provided. She was looking for the word here when threads exposed the weakness therein further:
Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
“After the corruption of the older revelation, the Quran comes with a twofold purpose: (1) to confirm the true and original Message and (2) to guard it or act as a check to its interpretation. The Arabic word ‘Muhaymin’ is very comprehensive in meaning. It means one who safeguards, watches over, stands witness, preserves and upholds. The Quran safeguards “the Book”, for it has preserved within it the teachings of all the former Books. It watches over these Books in the sense that it corroborates the Word of Allah which has remained intact in them. It stands as a witness because it bears testimony to the Word of Allah contained in these Books and helps to sort it out from the interpretations and commentaries of the people which were mixed with it; what is confirmed by the Quran is the Word of Allah and what is against it is that of the people.”
Muhammad Asad (His translation is often quoted by Christian missionaries):
“The participle ‘muhaymin’ is derived from the quadrilateral verb ‘haymana’, ‘he watched [over a thing]’ or ‘controlled [it]’, and is used here to describe the Quran as the determinant factor in deciding what is genuine and what is false in the earlier Scriptures.”
“The address is to the Holy Prophet (saw) saying that to him Allah has revealed the Quran which confirms the Torah and Injeel, Books previous to it, and is their custodian as well. This is because, after the people of the Torah altered the Torah and the people of the Injeel made changes in the Injeel, it was the Quran alone which turned out to be the kind overseer and protector which exposed the alterations made by them, lit up truth and reality in their proper perspective. Even today the true teachings of the Torah and Injeel still survive through the Quran.”
So we see the whether we look at the Muslims of the past or the present, they understood the term ‘muhaymin’ to mean the same and the interpretation of the verse has always been the same without any changes.
Some Christian missionaries bring to notice that one of the names of Allah (swt) is “AL-MUHAYMIN”. So let us see whether the meaning and explanation of the word “muhaymin” fits with harmony in both the verse and as one of the attributes of Allah (swt).
Muhaymin, according to early Muslims as taken from Ibn Kathir, means the following: Witness and Trustworthy. This word also means ‘Guardian’, ‘Supervisor’ or ‘Protector’. Now do these fit Allah (swt) and the verse in harmony? Yes!
Allah (swt) is our Guardian and hence has given us guidelines to correct ourselves just the way the Quran is the guardian over the Bible, correcting it. Allah (swt) is the Protector and has given us a way to protect ourselves by correcting our mistakes just as the way the Quran corrects the Bible in order to protect what was revealed in the previous scriptures. Allah (swt) is Witness to all that is being done just like the Quran is a witness to the changes made in the Bible thus correcting them.
Hence we see that the definition fits perfectly to Allah (swt) as well as the Quran thus refuting any claims that would suggest otherwise. The Quran is now a guardian over what was revealed before and thus people can learn the truth in the previous scriptures by looking at those parts which the Quran confirms and those which the Quran rejects.
Chapter 2 Verse 41
And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
When we read the verse preceding this, we find that these verses refer to the Children of Israel where Allah (swt) asks them to fulfill the Covenant. Then in this verse Allah (swt) is telling them to believe in what He reveals which confirms the revelation which is with them. So the Quran again is confirming that which is a revelation and not that which is corrupted by human hands. Then we read the next verse:
And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
Thus it becomes apparent that the Quran is telling the Jews not to conceal the Truth. How would the Truth be concealed? The Truth would be concealed by following human corruptions rather than following what Allah (swt) has revealed.
Quran 5 verse 48: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
In this verse we can see that Allah (swt) states that the Quran is sent in truth, confirming that what came before it and guarding it in safety. The Arabic word used here is “Muhaymin” which means ‘Guardian’, ‘Protector’ and ‘Trustworthy’. According to Al-Mawrid Arabic to English dictionary the word means ‘dominant, dominating, predominant, preponderant, prevailing, controlling, commanding, governing, reigning, ruling; (absolute) master, ruler, overlord’ – [Al Mawrid Arabic to English Dictionary pg. 1135].
Tafsir of this verse: Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
“(and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, ‘the Trustworthy’. Allah says that the Quran is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Quran is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Quran is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, ‘Witness’. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, ‘dominant over the previous Scriptures’. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Quran is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Quran includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures.”
Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas:
“(And unto the have We revealed the Scripture) We have sent you Gabriel with the Qur'an (with the Truth) to make plain the Truth and falsehood, (confirming) the statement of Allah's divine Oneness and some laws (whatever Scripture was before it) whatever Scriptures were before it, (and a watcher over it) a witness upon all the Scriptures before it; it is also said: a witness upon the ruling of stoning; and it is also said: a watcher over all previous Scriptures.”
It is thus seen that Allah (swt) has kept the Quran as a guardian over the previous scriptures so as to guard what was revealed originally thus showing to us that which is corruption in the Bible.
I will now quote some of the Muslims of the present times to see whether they understand that this verse states that the Bible was uncorrupted or that is got corrupted overtime.
Thank you for expressing your vexations. I won't try to justify anything you have alleged against me. The one thing I requested of you was that you simply quote the verse where babs787 made the assertion that the Qur'an said it came to "correct" the Biblical scriptures.
"And unto you have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watch over it …, " (the Qur’an 5:48)
This emphasizes two main aspects of the Qur’an:
a) The Qur’an confirms those teachings or passages of previous scriptures which remained intact.
b) The Qur’an is the last, complete, authoritative and authentic revelation. It is the final arbiter and the only criterion to correct any inaccuracy or misinterpretation which might have occurred in the transmission of scriptures. It helps in discovering human additions to or interpolations of previous revelations, even as it reveals possible deletions which might have taken place through the centuries prior to its revelation (the Qur’an). Indeed one of the names of the Qur’an is al-Furqan (the criterion which distinguishes between right and wrong, truth and falsehood).
It follows therefore that a Muslim has no reason to reject the essence of any passage in the Bible if such a passage is confirmed by the Qur’an. For example, we read in the New Testament a reiteration of one of the Ten Commandments:
"And Jesus answered him. The first of all commandments is hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29)
A Muslim who reads this passage in the Qur’an can find no objection to its essence. After all the Qur’an confirms:
"Say He is Allaah, the One and Only (God)" (The Qur’an 112:1)
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"
Narrated Abu Huraira: "The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever (truth that) is revealed to you.' ' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)"
@Pilgrim.1: « #7 on: December 27, 2007, 09:20 PM »
YUSUFALI: O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over
much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -
Followed by God [Allaah] emphasizing in Noble Qur'aan [next verse]:
YUSUFALI: Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.
Bottom line is that as question itself indicates by use of [words] "original copy" which is highly inappropriate in this case. However, implication by virtue of question is absurd. Because FORENSIC AND EMPIRICAL RESULTS proves that MASTER COPY [or SOURCE CODE] was never lost nor
tempered. It was and it has always been in possession of God [Allaah] the Creator of all heaven and earth. It further proves the existence of ONE and ONLY God [Allaah] the all Knower and all Seer who way ahead foretold to Jews and Christians in OT and NT about the arrival of Prophet Muhammed [saw] and commanded Jews and Christians to follow Prophet Muhammed [saw].
Noble Qur'aan 3:64! Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."
Noble Qur'aan 3:85! And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
Dear olabowale and babs787,
Thank you for expressing your vexations. I won't try to justify anything you have alleged against me. The one thing I requested of you was that you simply quote the verse where babs787 made the assertion that the Qur'an said it came to "correct" the Biblical scriptures.
All we have seen are verses in the Qur'an that state clearly that it [the Qur'an] came rather to CONFIRM the Biblical scriptures. There is not a single verse where 'Allah' said that the Qur'an came to "correct" the Bible - NOT ONE VERSE of the Qur'an said so!
That is why I opened this thread to ask: Where Did The Qur'an Say So?
The answer so far simply is this: NOWHERE did it say so!
If dishonesty is rather all you have to offer for what you cannot substantiate, what then are you trying to achieve with your excuses? It should be pretty obvious to all that we allow for honesty when discussing issues. Can you afford that?
I think bros. Olabowale cautioned me then when I tried responding to same person over her non-challant attitude, lack of moral, very uncouth etc but it seems he himself saw the kind of person she is. You dont have to sit with a person for years before you will know who the person is, through chatting with a person, you will be able to say one or two things about a person. Na wa o. Obinrin so iwa nu, o ni oun ko ni ori oko. Charity begins at home but should never end there. The way you relate with people you meet matters a lot because you dont know who is who.
I have been saying that. The way we relate with people, those older than us and those in which we are older than shows the kind of home one comes from and the kind of home training one received. For the fact that we are on air doesnt mean that one should be disrespectful to everybody. Some that are not even up to 20 years or in their mid-twenties will just sit at the pc and be writing, insulting and posting rubbish to those older than them just because they have the opportunity to use pc. Some people do not know who is who just because we all sit and contribute to n/land, they think that everybody is their mate in all ramification. Let me stop here because a word is enough for the wise that has ears.
@Pilgrim.!: Since you have no respect for elders on this thread, evidently is microcosm of your respect to those elders in your bloodline. First you have two jobs, just to go to school, (Nothing is wrong with holding down jobs), how are you going to give omo Onile olono a job? Don't you know that from their names? Egbe Isu ko ni Iyon. They did not have to take any loan for their education. Neither did i for mine. Its all family funds!
When you get to Nigeria, which you called bloody, and truly know who I am (Alhamdulillah), you will know that neither have I lost touch nor dis I not have anything to show for 'it!' No wonder that you are what you are! Only if i know your origin, then I may be able to see how you have turned out to be this terrible: It is as if your home training was Zero or rather, because since i do not know for certain whether your folks tried to impact you with any, you may have been the one who refused to take anything from "it takes a village to raise a child," efforts of your people!
You and me are not in the same level and i do not want to dignify your thirst for attention. Egbe eye ni eye nto! And when you are sure that you have arrived, then let us know where you are from, particularly and maybe I can 'bleach' them clean for you! Am almost sure that you have a very terrible background based on your arrogance on this board! Truth is very far from your conscience. You can not even speak the truth if your life depends on it: Good example is the verse 71 of Surah Mariam. You do not read Arabic and even in the translation of it, it was not stated that Muslims will go int Hell, yet you dishonestly said so.
When I know your worth, which is nothing, then I I will tell you who I really am. And even in your England, even though you are not in London, my nephew is well known among the Nigerian elites over there. So you see your 'bloviate,' is nothing but a charade. A sign of frustration of a very difficult living! All I can say to you now is that you should have introspect of your life and be contrived! You live a life of someone who is heedless and heading for destruction. You have empty pride as if your existence is more than having a better beginning of a sexual act between a man and a woman! You are not more than a single sperm fusing with a single egg! Yet your live on this earth as not be remarkably special!
Look, when you arrive, let me know. And if you want a job, in Nigeria, in Engineering, where you can get your hands dirty, and not as a theorist, InshaAllah, 'we,' (meaning me here; a majestic plural), can secure one for you. And pay you One year in advance! This here is to show how my Creator Allah the Almighty has showered His Mercy on me! And if you will need a job in America, and depending what field of engineering you study, then we can talk about it. The man who will give you a job is already on the Nairaland board! He has seen your stupidity, but yet count it as ignorance.
I dont know when you will stop fooling yourself just like you have been doing in most threads.
1.Did God give Jesus a revelation or four revelations (mathew, mark, Luke and John)
2. Are the four writers really eye witness to what really happened
3 Are they all under inpiration?
4. Was the revelation revealed during Jesus' time or after his death?
5.What does the Injil contains?
My Jesus revelation is the authentic and undiluted Injiil. The essential message of what was revealed to Jesus is in the pages of the Qur'an. I do not take anything from your unauthentic and diluted Gospel. Which one of the more than one gospel should I be taking from anyway? So you see, I have no need for anything that you have. My Jesus is described as a sincere and obedient messenger and prophet of his Lord to the Children of Israel. He was their last messenger in the chain of successive messengers/prophets. He was described to have been given many things under his prophetic responsibilities and duties. And proclaiming the worship of One God and the coming of the only messenger who came after him, whose name was Ahmad, were at the core of his responsibilities! Wants more? I could talk about my Jesus versus your Jesus all day and all night, till Sunday!
@Davidylan: Kini nma bi nu si! There is no reason for it. I su eni lo ma nti wo eni be po. Islam is big enough to actually make me very contrived that you could abuse me, and at the same time ask me not to be offended by it! I wo ati Olayiwola legbe, so it tells you who I could be when you transpose me into being a member of your family.
But afterall, we are all human being. We make mistakes. Now if devils wear beard, it is not for religious reason. If it is it is not Islam, because we say 'auhu dhu billahi minal shaytani rajiim' many times a day! If he has a religion, it must be a religion that is rejected by God. Christianity, and others are rejected by God already. From your statement about armpit it seems to me that its like a 50/50 chance that you shave it or not. Like I said before if I copy Jesus, in the things that I copy about him, I must truly love more than you who do not copy anything about him. Oh, except that you praise him too much and call him god!
I am very certain my Jesus is different from your Jesus. My was not nailed to the cross and crucified on it. Yours was. Mine was not a man who went about almost makes in his dress code. I use the on the cross image as my yardstick. Yours was almost Unclad.
You Davidylan who shave your face, but leaves your armpit and pubic hair unkept that they could be plaited/cornrolled, wants to tell be civility. If Jesus is stone age, then I am indeed stone age. See the difference between me and you? Yet if you and me are standing side by side, in Rochester of Manhattan the women we know that they will be talking to a real man when they come to me. But if you happen to be sporting an earring, which will not surprise me, then we may just be wondering, is this 'live or is it memorex!'
@Nwando: I love women too much, and I copy the prophet who came after Jesus in that department. Women make me happy and there is no celibacy in Islam. And I do not have to ride a donkey to get around. I will leave that to those of you who observe the Easter celebration. Afterall, that was when Jesus was reported to have ridden a donkey. Davidylan why getting married? Leave that to the Muslims. I am giving you a sure way that Christianity will be depleted without anybody doing nothing about it.
@Wordsmith: Ego and puffed up pride you said? Not with any Muslim. Remember we humble ourselves before our Creator; Standing , Bowing and Prostrating. Day and Night, every day without any break. Sometimes, when I imaging Sayidina Isa bin Mariam (Jesus son of Mary), walking down the narrow street and alleyways of Jerusalem, I see only a Muslim. He wears his beard long, with his wet hair and long Jilbab! But for you to have catapulted this simple man to a position of 1 part god, 1 part son of god, and at the same time 100% prophet and 100% son of man is a most crazy idea, at best! In anycase, that idea belongs to hellfire.
Am wearing a beard, and a Jilbab, I guess am copying Jesus, emulating him, while you are defaming him, by giving him the accolades that do not belong to him. Calling him god or son of and his mother, by you must be mother of god at the same time being the wife of god or played surrogate to father god for the birth of son god! Now who is very confused and too proud to admit it?
PLEASE NOTE I AM REPEATING THE POSTING OF THIS MESSAGE IN MOST THREADS IN OTHER TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE PEOPLE MENTIONED GET THE MESSAGE I AM TRYING TO PASS ACROSS, I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY INCONVINIENCES IT MIGHT CAUSE OTHER THREAD USERS,
Pilgrim.1, Davidylan, How are you, sorry you didn't I didn't post , statements and comments at all, for a while.
They were due to the following reasons:
1. I didn't have anything to say
2. I realise it was useless trying to convince them (@bab787, @olabowale and co) about something , when Satan has already blinded them to the truth. They themselves have decided to look for loopholes (where there is none) within the bible and lies with which to continue living a lie, and choose not to believe
3. I realised that their (@babs787, et al) would not come by arguing with them , instead it would come via the HolySpirit, ministering to them.
Let us remember that is , He (God) is the one who saved us, , so He is the One who would save them, Our own job as true Christians is just to , "SOW THE SEED OF THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST".
Whether or not " They choose to be infertile ground or grounds filled with thorns " is not really our perogative.
4. Finally I have noticed that "they are living for the now , while we are living for the now and then", so just like Jesus instructed the disciples there comes a time when we are supposed to dust our feet and leave
By the way pilgrim.1 and Davidylan, please find attached, some video links that have helped me to understand certain lies , deceit and indoctrination of "Evolution", I hope it helps you to see the truth as it has helped me to see the truth.
Finally false doctrine contributes to doubts in ones life and faith in God : below is a link to something on false doctrine which can and might
have led many Christians astray:
To you @babs787, @olabowale , and co, the wise and intelligent thing to do (instead of being dogmatic about issues) is to try and find out why those Christians that were formerly "either so called Moderate Muslims" and "Fanatical Muslims" decided to turn away from their ways and decide to become Christians. At least the truth is that some of them were probably as confrontation and unyielding in their statements as you "seem" to be. It would help you to at least prove for yourself by asking them "WHY" they left islam for Christ.
Unless you take joy in trying to "windup everybody" just for the sake of it, it would help you to conduct truthful research and analysis into why former terrorist, moderate muslims, fanatical muslims, decided to risk everything (life, job and family) all for the purpose of becoming a TRUE CHRISTIAN.
Pilgrim.1 and Davidylan stay blessed and in the hope of salvation through CHRIST
Babs787, if I were you, I will simply accept that I was wrong and made a mistake and then move on. Even a person with saw dust for brains, know what you are trying to do. You do not have a verse to produce, so just be a man and say so. I know, you don't want to be tagged a liar, but sometimes we say things that we have not verified and then we find out, that it is not a fact. So just man up and stop lookin and sounding like a slowpoke.
Please go to the first page and stop your Islamic hypocrisy. I took time to walk you through the meaning and I'm not a Muslim who recycles material and litter pages everywhere you guys pretend that you're struggling with English. This is really shameful and you should really have to go back and upgrade on your intelligence.
If you cannot visit the first page, stop pretending that you no longer understand English - because even that excuse is not going to deflect this thread in any way.
WHERE did the QUR'AN state that it came to CORRECT the Biblical scriptures?
After you both are done with your adventures of LYING for 'Allah', please kindly let us know so we can take you to the cleaners and bleach you clueless and colourless.
Next time, think well before you attempt to open your mouth and lie for 'Allah', you hear?
You are confused just because the Quran didnt so abi. Butr have you not been served facts showing that your revelation is corrupt and can not be said to be the original given to earlier prophets.
The Quran came to confirm and correct the early revelations that have been distorted.God gave Jesus a revelation and not four Gospels in which their accounts happened to be contradicting each other. Also, the revelation given was during Jesus' time and not the Gospel that was written after his demise.
Now in all honesty, let us look at one correction here and do tell me which one you will want to give people out of the Quran and biblical versions of the same story about Jesus.
Matthew 1 v 18: Now the birth of Jesus christ was in this wise: when as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph , before they came together, She was found with child of the Holy spirit.
Was he God's son or Son of the Holy spirit?
Luke 1 v 35: and the angel answered and said unto her, 'the Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshdow thee
Now please, do we say Holy Spirit impregnated Mary according to the above passage?
Now read the Quranic version of the same story:
Quran 3 v 47: He said, even so Allah created what He willeth. When he hath decreed a plan, he but said to it 'BE' ad it is.
See similar account from the book of Genesis 1 v 3: when God said 'BE' and 'it was'
Which of the versions will you like to stick to?
If the New Testament declares that there are 3 gods or godheads, take your pick, and Qur'an says there is no three God, but One God, is this not correction? There are still many parts of the NT that the Qur'an rejects, as it has a different opinion. This is correction. I asked the pundit to define correct or if they wish correction. Davidylan, has become empty barrel and I am losing respect in his veracity. I had hoped that he will be true to form, since he calls himself a Tiger. But its is Tony the Tigre that is showing up, these days.
My dear @Nigeria,
I'm sure that davidylan has responded eruditely to your post. However, although I commend the calmness of your persuasions, I should like to add a few things as well to help contextualize our discussion in this thread. Rather than my usual line-by-line response, allow me to just refer to the salient points (so I don't run the risk of repeating davidylan's fine points).
Even so, is that what the Qur'an came to "correct" - or rather "confirm"?
The one reason why I opened this thread was to request babs787 to proffer a single verse for his assertion that the Qur'an came to "correct" the Biblical scriptures. If there was any verse for that idea, I am still requesting Muslims to kindly post that verse so that we can move on from there! So far, the verses already posted are yet only validating what I have said until I lost count:
The Qur'an came to CONFIRM the Biblical scriptures!
Not in one instance does the Qur'an remotely give the idea that it came to "correct" the scriptures of the Jews and Christians!
UNTIL Muslims find those scrolls and the Psalms, it will continue to be a futile argument on their part to castigate the Biblical scriptures.
The easiest thing for most Muslims today is to argue that nobody knows where those same scriptures are. My singular solution to that misconception is that they should realize the Qur'an was referring to the very same Biblical scriptures in Muhammad's day that he said he believed in and reverred!
Sunan AbuDawud, Book 38, Num. 4434:
. . They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him)
who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then
withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying:
I believed in thee and in Him Who revealed thee!
The one question I have been asking is this: what Torah did Muhammad claim that he believed in?
That was the same Torah that was in the possession of the Jews during Muhammad's time - and if Muslims are going to be honest, they will find that the same Torah has remained with the Jews until this very day! It was never LOST; and not even babs787 has been able to find the verse(s) where he claimed that the Qur'an stated that it was LOST!
Further, it would interest you to know that the same thing applies to the Zabur (the Psalms of David), the Injil (the Gospels) and the other Biblical scriptures - none of them was LOST; and those who say that the Qur'an was stating that it (the Torah) was LOST are only lying through their yellow teeth - and they know it!
That was why I titled this thread in a very simple way: WHERE does the Qr'an say so? If they cannot find those verses for their assertions that "the Qur'an stated" it so, then no volume of story-telling will atone for the fallacy of that statement!
This is a very ambigous "message" . . . it says nothing about that "god", it does not reveal his nature neither tells us WHY we should worship him. Any religion can claim this as a "message".
Is this in your quran? I would advise that you dont trip ur own feet, down below you are quick to tell us the bible is mistranslated so how then can you be quoting it to advance ur quran?
and where are the "scriptures" Allah claimed to have given them? did mohammad lose them? Until you can produce them you or other muslims have NO RIGHT to cry about a corrupt bible.
ALL prophets that "appear" in the quran were only included in a bid to legitimise the quran. Their messages are no where to be found in the quran and where they are mentioned, the quran appears vague on their history and functions.
same old excuse.
Christians have the original scrolls . . . it is muslims who cant find the alleged "scriptures" Allah claimed to have sent. They shld find their own first before talking gullibly about translational errors.
THE MESSAGE IS BELIEVE N WORSHIP 0NE (1) GOD
i believe the 1st commandment was:Thou shalt worship no other god or Thou shalt have no other gods.
-Ogun (or Ogoun, Ogum, Ogou) is a loa and orisha, who presides over fire, iron, hunting, politics and war. He is the patron of smiths and is usually displayed with his attributes: machete or sabre, rum and tobacco. He is one of the husbands of Erzulie and is a husband of Osun and Oya in Yoruba mythology (wikipedia).my bro marriage aint for God n if he presided over just a mentioned part of human endeavor who takes care of others.
- hindu concept of God-Hinduism is a diverse system of thought with beliefs spanning monotheism, polytheism,panentheism, pantheism, monism and atheism. It is sometimes referred to as henotheistic (devotion to a single God while accepting the existence of other gods), but any such term is an oversimplification of the complexities and variations of belief (wikipedia). It believes in an overall God but still believe everything is God.
scrolls of moses n psalms were not reviewed in quran it was mentioned that they both were given scriptures,so personally i dont know where they r right now.
language of the bible
aramaic is an old semitic language close related to both hebrew and arabic.
The Jewish Bible is the Hebrew Scriptures, 39 books originally written in Hebrew, except for a few sections in Aramaic.
( Encarta ® Encyclopedia) so my apologies 4d approximation. while d new testament was composed in greek.
D Quran is not a re-write of d bible so not all prophets mentioned in the bible reappear in d quran.
Concernin d leanage of ismael-God is d all knowing an d he does whatever pleases him no questions asked.
happy new year.
guess i was miss understood i didn't say d quran came to confirm d bible (KJV n d rest) but d sriptures that were given to those prophets i mentioned.translatin it from aramaic/hebrew,greek,latin,english,revisin alters d words of God.we cant do away with d whole modern bible cos it's a mix of God's words n translational errors (i.e in d present day bible there r still parts of d original scriptures).we dont have d original books from d scriptures so pls dont ask me where it is.
pls guys n chicks its a discussion 4rum not argument session,d whole essence is 2 learn n have fun not try 2 diminish religions.
abeg make una manage my english,i 4 write 4 local dialect but this na forum 4 every
I asked you just two questions. WHERE have you answered them by simply quoting the verses requested?
All the verses YOU have quoted so far are pointing out that the Qur'an came to CONFIRM the Biblical scriptures, rather than to "correct" them!
If you are intellectually challenged, hiding behind the usual Islamic games of "answer my questions" is a waste of time here. I asked you simple questions and I'm still waiting for your answers - please attend to them in simple terms instead of dribbling round with fallacious story lines to cover up your lying for 'Allah'.
Please don't humour me with this drivel.
If you are intellectually challenged and you no longer understand the meaning of the simple word you are asking, then please let us know!
Did your Qur'an ever use the word "correct" or "confirm" in the verses quoted so far? WHERE did Allah tell you that he gave the Qur'an in order to "correct" the Biblical scriptures?
This is how you seek to divert the core concerns of a thread - so that with your bloviates you will only hope to tire out readers to lose sight of the subject under discussion!
If you have anything tangible to offer from the Qur'an where 'Allah' said the Qur'an came to "correct" the Biblical scriptures, then please say on! If otherwise, please leave this thread as neatly as you met it before you receive another bleaching!
No islam destroyed 357 and reserved Allah and his two daughters.
Christianity didnt need to destroy idols . . . the sin of idolatry had been instituted since the book of Exodus.
Massa olabowale . . . what of the idols of the black stone and the constant looking out for the moon? What of the idol of ur prayer beads? The idols of elevating mohammed to the plane of greater than the lifeless skeleton of a murderer and liar?
You sons of belial ask me to wake up?
@Davidylan: If there is a religion that is closer to Ogun or any Idol form of worship between Islam and Christianity, it is Christianity! Islam destroyed 360 idols from the Ka'aba, and others from other locations. Even though Christianity is not reported to have destroyed any physical idol, but even the Idol of the heart and physical idols were erected after Jesus left theearth. Davidylan, you should consider that you are almost as bad as Ogun worshipper. The Idol of the hearts your erecting Jesus in your heart and mind as god along with God. Physical idols are his mother Mary, and other saints, the several type of paintings and indeed the Crucifix/Cross that a large portion of the Christians have hanging on their neck, etc, etc. David, wake up men!
Yet again spouting islamic propaganda that has no basis.
Reiterating WHAT message? Ogun worshippers worship 1 "god" ditto for hindus . . . what differentiates them from islam?
Are they the messages the quran came to reiterate?
1. Where are these messages? Did not mohammed claim that they are now corrupted? Where then are these "scriptures" that muslims are always talking about?
2. Where are the scrolls of moses and the psalms of David IN THE QURAN?
1. False!! Many of the biblical scrolls were found written in aramaic and greek.
2. Where in the quran did Allah indicate that he sent any "revelations" to Daniel, Hosea or Micah?
3. If Ishmael was the chosen lineage of Allah . . . why then did he completely ignore the ishmealite lineage up until the 12th century AD rather choosing to send his fraudulent "revelations" to jews and in hebrew!
What "message"? Can someone pls enlighten me on this ambigous "message" muslims love to parrot about?
The Quran doesn't state that it is to correct the bible,but to bring d whole of mankind to d worship of 1 God (Allah) motheseim i.e re iterating d message that came b4 it.
The Quran came 2 confirm d messages in d scripture that came before it i.e (injeel to Isa (AS) jesus,Taurat to Musa (AS) n zabur to dawud (AS) david) this are translated as d new testament,scrolls of moses n psalms of david.All this revelations came in hebrew so alteration n revision changed d scripture in question so we cannot say d various verses r talkin bout d modern day KJV of d bible.
d word bible is not mentioned in d Quran. d word "ahlil kitab" (meanin people of d book-literally or learned people-in modern english) is used to denote christains n jews.d correction is not in d scripture as my brother said but in d messege
Do you read to understand at all?
1. Now if the Quran did not come to correct the bible, how come Allah says we should dialogue with you in the best manner of approach?
The Quran confirms what was before it by stating or repeating that what was revealed to the concerned prophets and correcting that which has been corrupted. For example, in the story of the Original Sin as seen in the Bible, the blame is put on the woman and not the man. The Quran however corrects this mistake and says that both of them are equally responsible. Also the Quran made it known to us that Jesus started his first miracle from the cradle. The Quran also corrected the false prophecies ascribed to Jesus as in this link http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-101571.0.html, letting us know the true status of Jesus christ.
I gave you rebuttal on the evidence christian presents that Torah is the same as what they are having hence my giving you catholic encyclopedia which read thus:
“The three most celebrated manuscripts of the Septuagint known are the Vatican, “Codex Vaticanus” (fourth century); the Alexandrian, “Codex Alexandrinus” (fifth century), now in the British Museum, London; and that of Sinai, “Codex Sinaiticus” (fourth century), found by Tischendorf in the convent of St. Catherine, on Mount Sinai, in 1844 and 1849, now part at Leipzig and in part in St. Petersburg; they are all written in uncials.”
Hence we see that the Septuagint today is not from during the time of Jesus. The earliest manuscript dates to the fourth century some 300 years after Jesus. Thus no Christian can claim that the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers) which they have today in the Bible is the same as to what was present in the Septuagint during the time of Jesus.
So pilgrim, how come the Gospel in existence today is the same as that of Jesus when it was written after him?
Stop your deceit cos it has not worked with me and it will never work. The more you lie, the more your falsehood is exposed.
Lest I forget, your attention is needed here