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Can A Believer Lose Salvation?

Hi everyone,

I want us to discuss the above topic and relate it with such concepts as (but not limited to);

Foreknowledge: what is the extent of God’s foreknowledge?

Predestination: What is it? Is it biblical? How does it relate to election, reprobation? Who are the elects? Are the elects constantly changing? Can the elects be reprobates and the reprobates elects? Can one change their destiny?

What is ‘freewill’? Can ‘freewill’ and predestination co-exist?

Can salvation be by works? What is Pelagianism?

What does The Bible mean when it says, salvation is not by works, is not by the law, it is by grace, through faith?(Rom.3:28;Eph.2:8,9;Titus 3:5 e.t.c)

Can the Lord change? Does He indeed know the end from the beginning?

Can the Holy Spirit leave the believer? If yes, under what circumstance(s). If due to sin, what sin? What is the extent of persistence in this sin?

When did this teaching that a believer can lose salvation start and who were the proponents?

Can we trust the reformers and those who followed after their teachings?

What is the reformed faith? What is Calvinism?

Can salvation be both by grace and by works?(Rom. 11: 5,6)

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129 answers

I had noticed in your post before now, some inaccuracies. One of them was your belief that Christ hated some of the disciples and you know I tried to show you it was not so. Another was your saying we were mere puppets (programmed robots) in God's hands, unfortunately I never got to reasoning with you on this. These two positions alone, show your leaning towards Hypercalvinism - a position which both Calvinists and Arminians (principal parties to this debate) abhor.

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Numbers23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Titus1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

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No, I do not agree with the unbolded.I see in the verses above, reinforcements of the faithfulness of God. If you think they make Him less omnipotent or less omnipotent in some respect, as your post above seems to suggest, please tell us.

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5solas

Do you agree with the unbolded part about omnipotence?

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Why not enlighten us on the sense we can say He is not omniscient.

More on creeds later.

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Bigbashir

To be explicit, lol, you don't understand what you typed.

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Image123

To be explicit, you are wrong.

"He cannot sin, die or lie"

God sends human beings earthquakes etc, this is unjust in the eyes of men but because God is God, it cannot constitute sin. And this is off topic kinda. God often sent the Israelites to wars He knew they might lose in some cases before a final victory.

To conclude, God knows everything for sure!

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i believe we often miss the context in which we say God is all knowing. i know that might sound 'shocking heresy' to you so let me explain. Like when we say God can do anything(omnipotent), we should by growth in knowledge realise, in context, that He cannot sin, die or lie. Yet He can do all things, right?

In the same vein, we need to grow in knowledge of God to undertand His omniscience more, especially in line with the whole scripture, not some creed or partial bible quoting.

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I used to think believers cannot lose salvation but after further research, I have been slightly persuaded otherwise. Look at the parable of the sower, that parable is referring to believers; ultimately God does what He wants with human beings.

Whilst Calvinism is very comforting,it may not be accurate after all. I agree certain believers will not lose salvation; others who fell on the "bad soil" may indeed lose.

I am basing my precept on the parable of the sower and also playing advocate here,

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[Quote]

Yes believers can lose salvation. Calvinism does not hold much weight; ,  [/Quote]

@Bigbashiru

The above is contrary to everything you have ever  posted. What exactly is the problem? Do you have  a change of opinion , someone has a gun pointed at your head or your account has been compromised? Please clarify.

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Yes believers can lose salvation. Calvinism does not hold much weight; all in all God knows who is heaven bound, who is hell bound and may be even believers who will lose salvation if not He will not be al knowing; thats why it says:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God"

"knowing from the beginning who will betray Him" etc.

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Thanks a lot for your response Dexmond. I am sorry I couldn’t respond earlier than now.

I could of course quote as many scriptures to support Calvinism (the belief that salvation cannot be lost).Indeed a lot of such scriptures have been quoted already. I would like you to refute Calvinism with such concepts as I listed in the original post.

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@5Solas

Thanks for your commendation. 5Solas, the following scriptures clearly shows that a christian after receiving grace for holy living, may choose go back (backslide) to his former ways thereby losing his/her salvation. Such a backslider is still precious in Gods sight but will be given up to be punished for counting Gods grace as dung. Hear God weeping as it were for backslidden Israel in Hosea 11:8

"How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender". The Righteousness of God demands that sinners be punished, whether the sinner was once a born-again child of God or an unregenerated man/woman, but the mercy of God is demonstrated in his patience.

Revelation 2:5

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

2 Peter 2:21

For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Luke 9:62

Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Hebrews 10:26-29

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

1 Timothy 5:15

For some have already strayed after Satan.

2 Timothy 2:12

If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Luke 17:32

Remember Lot's wife.

Hosea 14:4

I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them.

Hosea 8:14

For Israel has forgotten his Maker and built palaces, and Judah has multiplied fortified cities; so I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour her strongholds.

My beloved brother, I have furnished you with scriptural evidence that shows that a believer can backslide and the reaction of God to a backslider.

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@5Solas

Will a person after been saved, but went back into sin, lets say into armed robbery but died in the sin be saved? If your answer is no, it means one can lose his/her salvation; if you say yes, it means you may not have considered the scripture that says nothing unclean shall enter. In conclusion, one can lose his/her salvation, if he draws back from following the Lord.

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@Dexmond

Appealing to sentiments rather than The Word, would do us no good, Dexmond. I suggest you go through the posts before joining the 'fray'. More on your post later.

By the way, your post, 'How They Became Christians!', was awesome.

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@All, especially Dexmond.

An explanation of the post by skolastica above is necessary, please. The post was actually inadvertently made by me. I had registered a neighbour (skolastica) before yesterday and yesterday she was signed in before I made my post. My sincere apologies for any distress to anyone.

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Appealing to sentiments rather than The Word, would do us no good, Dexmond. I suggest you go through the posts before joining the 'fray'. More on your post later.

By the way, your post, 'How They Became Christians!', was awesome.

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@5Solas

Will a person after been saved, but went back into sin, lets say into armed robbery but died in the sin be saved? If your answer is no, it means one can lose his/her salvation; if you say yes, it means you may not have considered the scripture that says nothing unclean shall enter. In conclusion, one can lose his/her salvation, if he draws back from following the Lord.

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WHOSOEVER THE SON OF MAN SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED.

HOW CAN I LOST MY SALVATION.

WHY AM I THEN A SAINT.

ARE SAINTS NOT SINNERS?

FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND COME SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

FOR OUT OF SIN I WAS CAME INTO THE WORLD.

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u can only lose what you once had. some people who u see departing from the faith proves one thing that they were never of the faith. he that is born of God cannot sin.

1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

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I am impressed by your answer.[/b]If they were saved[b]. We should be cautious and use ’IF’ even though it is very probable they were saved. I agree with you that if they were saved, they did not lose their salvation(1Cor.11:30).

Indeed we should take out time to look at both sides of the arguments.

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Lol, my apologies brethren - I didn't quite notice this as I was in and out of the forum the last few hours while on another thread (Abraham Genesis 14).

A pity the last few posts were lost (but I should commend the guys behind Nairaland for their hardwork all the same - God bless them). We shall take time to consider all points argued for or against the security of our salvation.

@toluxa1, good to read from you, and thanks for your comments.

@5solas, you asked a very important question on Ananias and Sapphira. I would have loved to discuss them; but time constraints for now won't let me go into detail. Basically, I tend to think that if they were saved, the fact that they died physically on their error does not mean they had lost their salvation. This seems so to me, at least for the same reason that one might observe that even though Moses had not entered the promised land and died outside of it, he nevertheless did not lose his salvation. Maybe more later.

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yes a believer can lose his salvation >>> read the multiple deconversion stories on Mr Dawkins site and you get the picture

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Toluxa1 .

Amen , Amen. Thanks a lot for your explaination about the problem.  I was truly perplexed.

For a moment I actually forgot you. I should have realised that, the fact you were not contributing at a time, did not mean you were not reading. I apologise. You did well to goad Viaro. His posts were really to the point and  I gained a lot from them.

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May the LORD bless the reading of His word and grant us grace to understand more and more each day. I guess everything I could have said, I have either said or has been said on this topic. @5solars &viaro, thanks for your comments.

@all. There was a hardware problem on Nairaland servers some days ago and that caused many posts to be lost. Its a pity I couldn't read them.

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Image 123 and Viaro.

I am sorry I have not been able to post before now. I have been having problems with my ISPs.I am not so sure if it was a nightmare now , but I thought we were on page 5 of the thread? Whatever happened? I could read but couldn’t post and I thought Image123 was saying to you (Viaro), ‘I give up! I am tired of trying to get through to you!’(my paraphrase of course!).Viaro was saying,’ but we have only just begun!’. Whatever the case, I still want comments from you guys from other fronts. Let’s leave Judas for now, what about Ananias and Sapphira? Leaving works for now, how about the foreknowledge of God?

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Please ask yourself the reason for the death of Christ and what it accomplished. If ‘our righteousness’ (our part) could save us, He would not have needed to come. You do not understand perhaps why Paul persecuted the apostles. If you read Gal.1-2 and Phil.3 in addition to The Acts of the Apostles, you will get a better understanding.

Paul was not the type to lie, steal, kill e.t.c (see Phil.3 and remember, he was a Pharisee!), but when the apostles started teaching that justification was by faith alone and not by obedience to the law (commandment), I am sure you can imagine his anger. He was concerned that by insisting on faith alone, the apostles were making void the law (Rom 3:31) , teaching things that would make people sin against God. That was why he persecuted them! But when he encountered Christ, he understood that the laws (commandments) that he was so zealous of protecting, had been fulfilled in Christ (Rom8:1-4) and nothing was required of him to do than to put his faith (his hope of going to heaven) in Christ.

It was not that he found God, it was that God found him (Gal.4:9, Rom.9:30-33,). It was not when he was seeking God; it was when he was destroying the works of God!

God has chosen those who would be saved before the foundation of the world. (This is the teaching of the election of persons to salvation(Eph.1:3-5)).God did not choose everyone but some (the elects) and the reason for His choice is not for any good foreseen in them (as some ignorantly claim) but out of His good pleasure.

It is not to be wondered at why God does not save all sinners, what should be wondered at is that He saves any.

The righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees is the righteousness of faith and it is that  righteousness Paul desires to be found with and not, his own righteousness!(Phil.3:9.).

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I am shocked that you would make statements like the above , it clearly shows you don’t understand what it means for salvation to be by grace. If it is possible for believers to [s]unkeep themselves[/s] fall and be lost , what is the whole point of Jesus’ teaching, almost throughout John 10; 6:37 and 17? It is arguments like these that keep men from the truth of the gospel. Rom. 8:28-29 says nothing can separate the believer from the love of God and when it is asserted, someone  objects and says , ‘sin was not mentioned’ ! The bible says the Holy Spirit was given to us to abide with us forever and  as a guarantee  that we will be redeemed at the end of the day, someone objects and says , ‘nevertheless He leaves on the commission of any sin’ ! The bible says the man is the head of the woman, someone objects and says,’the woman is the neck of the man’ !Such arguments amount to trifling with the scriptures. Please don’t just argue, look at the import of the  scriptures we have been bringing to your attention. We are not arguing for a show or to show we are the approved ones but to draw your attention to scriptures you must consider.Salvation is completely of grace, God will not give (or share!)His glory with puny man!

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^^^

There is nothing we can do to obtain salvation - that much we know and agree on. To mix up any idea as if we are working for our salvation is to confuse the work of God altogether.

The admonition in Phil. 2:12 to 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' does not mean we should try to work out anything in order that we might get saved. The working out of our salvation is the demonstration or proof of our having been saved through faith, as we find in Eph. 2:10 - 'we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'

There is no 're-saving' in the new covenant. That is the simple point you should try and grasp. If there is a 're-saving', how many times does a saved-and-lost believer have to be redeemed? Perhaps you might want to consider Hebrews 6:4-6 which effectively says that it is impossible for those who fall away to be renewed unto repentance, for that is like crucifying the Lord all over again!

Those who are truly born again do not become unregenerate afterwards. There is no possi9bility shown in Scripture about a 're-saving' or a born again believer. The warnings in Scripture which many have taken to apply to the saved believer for the possibility of losing salvation are actually for those who profess to be born again but are NOT - see 1 John 2:19 ['They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us'].

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viaro,

Ezekiel33 is not presenting an idea of salvation. The righteous in passage is already saved/righteous before God. My point is can a believer lose salvation and my answer is Yes. Whether he got salvation by faith or works, before Jesus or after Jesus is not the crux. Can he lose it after been found righteous/not wicked before God?

Context is vital in this because when God makes us righteous, it still becomes 'our righteousness'(compare 2Corinthians9v10 and Matthew 5v20). Infact we are made the righteousness of God. What Ezekiel is saying in other words is that the righteous shouldn't think that his evil will go unpunished, he shouldn't rest on past records. It's the context. I'll comment on other issues later

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hmmm, it's my turn se?

5solas

The salvation of any man depends on many factors but primarily on God and on him/her. We've got our part to play. We can't just take away from the words of the book.rev22v19). That scripture itself tells us that a believer can lose his salvation. The holy city for God's sake is salvation. Where are you going to if you're out of the holy city? Is that just a reward. Philippians says work out your own salvation. If we cut that out and only hold 'it is God that works', then we're in danger. I'm with the hope that we're learning and not just trying to have the last word.

The backslider can be lost while still alive. Jesus spake of Judas as lost. The prodigal Son was lost. You've heard the parable of the lost sheep. Lost sheep can still repent/'re-saving' like we see the prodigal Son was re-saved

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Viaro,

Thanks a lot for your rejoinders and for the patience you exhibited in the course of posting them. I am 100% in agreement.

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The reference should be James 5:19-20 (and not Jude 19-20).

Yet I disagree with your summations on that passage, for James does not warn anyone about 'a loss of salvation' at all. If he did, he would also be telling us about a 're-saving', which does not appear at all in his epistle anywhere. This was why a few of us have desired that we seek to understand the meaning and import of the 'salvation' which we have in the new birth, so we could then begin to appreciate the work of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant.

Now, let's make a few observations on James 5:19-20.

1.   It is possible for a Christian to 'err', for James himself warns: 'Do not err, my beloved brethren' (Jam. 1:16); and there are many ways in which we may err -

either through:

(a)  not knowing the Scriptures (Matt. 22:29), or:

(b)  craving the love of money (1 Tim. 6:10), or:

(c)  tolerating heresies among Christians (1 Cor. 11:19);

(d)  profane and vain babblings or false knowledge

      (1 Tim. 6:20-21)

2.   In any of these and more ways that a Christian may 'err', he may find himself in 'the error of his way' which may or may not lead to "death". We know that sin in the life of a believer may lead to 'death' but not the 'losing of salvation'. This is especially clear from 1 Cor. 5:5 where a brother was delivered unto Satan 'for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.'

3.^^^ Further to (2) above, we know there is a sin unto death; and a sin that is not unto death (1 John 5:16). In just the same way, James 5 does not speak about a sin unto death but rather a sin that is NOT unto death - which is why he speaks of trying to 'save a soul from death' (v. 20).

4.   Yet, it is clear that when when James addresses Christians as "ye sinners" in Jam. 4:8, he did not consider them as having lost their "salvation". He says, 'Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded'. Reading from verse 1 shows why he addresses erring Christians in such a manner; and as if that was not enough, he calls them 'Ye adulterers and adulteresses' in verse 4. In all of these, he does not suppose that these Christians had lost their salvation; or he would have made recommendations to them on how they could be 're-saved' which he does NOT!

There certainly are more points about this to discuss; but the basic point in all these is that James refers to erring Christians as "sinners" without considering them to have lost their salvation. He had earlier acknowledged the new birth (James 1:18); but he goes on to remonstrate with erring believers as regards their careless living.

The difference between an erring Christian and an unregenerate believer is given in Hebrews 12:6-8 >>

[list]For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof ALL are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.[/list]

The erring Christian receives chastening as a 'son'; but it is a sure sign that one is not a 'son' if he does not receive chastening while living a sinful life, though such a person may be a professing 'Christian'.

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The clarification is well appreciated.

However, it still amounts to the same thing I tried to point out in post #89 in previous page. The basic question (and it is enormously important) is whether salvation is by grace or by works.

There are many things in life that are precious to people. For some, their marriages are far more precious to them than their life savings; for others, it could be something else ( ____ fill the gap with whatever it may be) and they are far more precious than life savings. In all of these examples, we would be looking at what people work for: thus, that is why it is their 'life savings'.

Yet, salvation is not like that at all - for it is entirely God's work. It may be precious to us (and indeed it is, and ought to always be); but from start to finish it is all a matter of God's work in the life of a believer.

This is why it is difficult to find any warning about losing 'salvation'; but we find a plethora of warnings about losing 'rewards'.

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In this, you have spoken so well, thank you. Good to note the bolded line.

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^^^

@Image123,

The good news is that the Christian's righteousness is not based on the position of Ezekiel 33:13 where someone is trusting to "his own righteousness". Indeed, the apostle Paul says that he would not trust in his own righteousness (Phil. 3:9- 'not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law'). Instead, the Christian's righteousness is based on faith in the work of God Himself - and this is what the same prophet Ezekiel declares (Ezek. 36:21-32), as do other prophets and apostles in both the OT and NT. Let's see a few:

Everywhere you turn, dear brother, you need to ask a basic question: on what basis is a man resting his salvation? If it be of 'works' (any work at all which a man does), then it is not according to 'grace'; but and if it be on the basis of GRACE, then it could not be based on any man's 'work' at all (Romans 11:6). It is in this regard you have to consider carefully what Ezekiel 33 is saying, especially where the key is in verse 13 and shows a man who is trusting to "his own righteousness", whereas Isaiah declares that all our righteousnesses are filthy rags before God (Isa. 64:6).

Our salvation in Christ is of 'grace' and not of 'works', and that distinction is so important in all things considered on this subject.

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And he believed, but wasn’t saved presumably, because salvation is a process! ‘Believe’ as preached, was not in fact so, but ‘believing’!

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In whose arms is the salvation of a believer ultimately, even if he is so gullible as to 'commit' it into ‘other hands’ as you say?

Are you saying the backslider is lost while still alive? By talking of a 're-saving’ are you saying he can get born-again again. Wetin we no go hear!

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@viaro

Sorry I wasn't explicit when I said that if you can lose your life savings, then you can lose your salvation. My thinking in saying that, is that salvation is most precious than life savings. And if what many count as precious(life savings), and are careful about can be lost, then beware, salvation which we're often more negligent about and often commit into other(God, denomination, leaders and shepherd) hands, can be lost.

Jude in warning us talks of a loss of salvation

V 19. If any OF YOU do ERR FROM the truth, and one convert him. Verse 20. LET HIM KNOW, that he which converts the SINNER from the error of his way shall save a soul from DEATH, and hide a multitude of sins.

MORAL LESSON:The backslider is a sinner in death who needs a 're-saving'. This is not talking about works or rewards.

Blessings

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@viaro & toluxa1

I was quoting Acts 16v31 where someone asked Paul and Silas "What must I do to be saved". The answer given was that simple. Jesus said in John 3 he that believes is not condemned, he that does not believe is condemned already. Another place, Jesus says he that believes and is baptized shall be saved.

Salvation can get that simple. I realise the need for growth and teaching and continuing in doctrine but this are not steps to salvation, less it become not of faith but of works.

Knowing the inside-out of how to get saved doesn't necessarily translate to salvation. One may know doctrine, and regeneration, and remission, and size and color of the paschal lamb and not be saved. One can have a healthy heart without knowledge of ventricles and auricles AND vice versa. Doctrine doesn't save us, it's faith that saves.

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@toluxa1

The Word of God has literal meanings and sometimes/many times hidden meanings. Thou shall not steal is as literal as you can have it. Overspiritualising issues is one of the roots of christian backwardness and disunity. I tell you, even apostle Peter could be confused with some theology and doctrine that come up today, in the name of spirituality. No Word of God is of private interpretation.

I never mentioned that Matthew 19v28 was an obstacle to me. You seem to suggest this as you don't know where to start. Romans 4v21 might be a good place to start, i learnt and posted that today on the Today's Rhema thread.

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Matthew 19v28. And Jesus said unto them, VERILY I SAY unto you, that YE which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, YE also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This promise was repeated in Luke 22v30 at another occasion. Do we believe this?

My original point was that Judas was among those promised a place in heaven. Heaven is for saved people, Jesus wouldn't promise them thrones in Heaven if they were unsaved. Judas was saved but he lost his place, that's the purpose why the apostle had to replace him in Acts 1.

[edited]Acts 1v17 he was numbered, and had obtained

v22. MUST one be ordained.

v25. that he might go to HIS own place.

Yes, Judas was expected to be among those to judge the 12tribes but he by transgression fell

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All

Sorry for my absence. Pls, i hope not to be seen as stubborn.Ezekiel 33v11-16 is God's Word,not our thoughts.

13. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall SURELY live, if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousness shall NOT be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

i believe that God has not changed.

Viaro,

When I referred to an analogy, I had in mind the likeness between 12thrones in heaven and Judas' salvation.

When Jesus says to His disciples, "VERILY I SAY UNTO you ", I don't think it symbolic. Are we saying that Jesus was talking with tongue in cheek?

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The next concept I would like to look at is the Holy Spirit’s presence in the believer , to go straight to the point, if it can leave  the believer. First and foremost then let us consider why He was given, what He does and if He is said to leave the believer.

Why He was given

John 14

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;[/b]17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you

John 16

6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What  He Does

Eph.1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Gal.3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the

hearing of faith?

I cannot see why anyone would teach that the Holy Spirit can leave a believer in the light of the above scriptures.

The spirit is supposed to be a comforter to the believer, if He leaves at the point when He is needed most, then what is the purpose of His coming? The argument that He cannot stay where there is sin is beaten down by, Rom 5:8-10,

‘8.But God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life’.

The Spirit came to us because of our faith, not good works; why are our sins advanced as a reason why the Spirit can leave? Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to cite lack of faith?

The reason why people teach that the Spirit can leave  a believer  is to give credence to the false doctrine that a believer can lose salvation(Arminianism), they seek consistency with Romans 8:9, ‘But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.[b] Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his’.

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@toluxa1,

I apologise - and you caught me red-handed! Indeed, I had not been forward to argue strongly on this subject for several reasons, especially because it is possible that I might be ignorant of some other verses which some more mature Christians have studied. Forgive me for sounding initially like I was sitting on the fence.

The discussion in the recommended thread is quite interesting. I hope to add my bit sometime much later. Cheers.

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@viaro. For the first time I'm going to respond to you. The reason I have not earlier is because I discovered you have a light of the truth of this matter and a better understanding of how God's Salvation plan is but you have been sitting on the fence ever since you surfaced. Now with you last post you have hit it on the head. This are exactly the things I've been trying to point out to Image. He says the discussion is not about how Salvation is gotten, but whether or not it can be lost. But thats not possible is you don't even know how its gotten. Salvation is much more than 'Believe in the Lord, and thou shall be saved'. I think you should check the thread "Not Ordained to Life Eternal" on this page. We're discussing related things there.

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True, we can find veritable answers in God's Word to those questions. I like the thought that Matt. 19:28 presents an 'analogy', as I don't think it was meant to be taken literally (otherwise we could extend it to mean that Judas is expected to be among those who judge the twelve tribes of Israel).

Truer words, thank you.

However, just to clarify on what I said earlier:

By that I meant that some of us who use analogies to buttress our persuasions should be careful. The salvation that Christ gives us goes deeper than many of the analogies we use (and I ask forgiveness for not having read through every single post in this thread).

Here's an example of what I'm trying to say:

No, it's not that simple - the analogy does not fit. One's 'life savings' pertains to what they worked for; but salvation is a gift by grace and it's free. We already know that we cannot confuse work for grace (Romans 11:6 - 'And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work'); and thus we cannot destine them to be on the same pedestal.

Indeed, there are warnings to believers in Scripture (both OT and NT): but what is the nature of such warnings to us? Are they warning us about losing salvation or about losing rewards?

Rewards pertain to our works that follow salvation - and there is more than enough to show that we can lose our reward(s) [2 John 1:8 for example].

Salvation pertains to God's work in us following our genuine repentance - I don't know if the Bible warns us of the possibility of becoming 'unsaved' after having been 'saved'. And this is where it all gets knotty for many of us who are grappling with a clear understanding of the 'salvation' of which we speak.

Considering these two issues (between rewards and salvation) in this manner, I think aletheia has captured the essential answer to the basic question of the thread much earlier:

I could elaborate where need be. Cheers.

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Great. For the sake of emphasis, I wish to re-establish my position that no believer loses his salvation unless he refutes his earlier confession of Christ as his Lord and Saviour. Anyone who confesses and holds on to his confession that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour of his life remain eternally saved.

HOWEVER, any believer who sins aginst The Holy Spirit, has by implication and application of gross offence of DISOBEDIENCE to specific divine instruction, DENIED that Jesus was no longer his Lord and Saviour and this could lead to him loosing his salvation.

SO, the question here is that no BELIEVER anyone who confesses and keeps on confessing Jesus as the LORD (controller and director) of his life can loose his salvation.

Rather, he may loose the reward of his "good works" with wrong motive and intent. Among such 'good works' are preaching, evangelising, healing, deliverance, giving, visiting and the rest with the aim of attracting self-appraisal and applause of others. It means that if this piece was written so I could win the applause of this forum, I have waisted my precious time and money before God but that won't stop me from making heaven!

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EXACTLY! If you don't have a proper understanding on How it is obtained, then there is no way you can know the 'AFTER' (whether or not it can be lost). The foundation is the problem bro.

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One very SERIOUS problem I discovered alot of people have with bible study is the way the take the scriptures soooo literallily. When you begin to understand the spirituality of God's word, things like this (judging the twelve tribes of Israel with on twelve thrones) will not be an obstacle for you. If you really believe that on the last day. The very actual twelve disciples of Jesus sitting on thrones will be judging the very twelve tribes of National Israel, then you have a long way to go bro. I don't know where to start on this.

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toluxa

God's salvation plan for mankind? Are you on nairaland at all? There are threadS on that already. Perhaps, you could help THEM discover something maybe. BTW, I thought we were discussing about AFTER salvation, can it be lost or not. Not how can it be obtained.

5solas

I said John was writing in retrospect(looking back). I didn't say Jesus was speaking in retrospect

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