The verses above is the picture of an early church (I believe a true church). Why the church go contrary today and how can church retrace her step.
The verses above is the picture of an early church (I believe a true church). Why the church go contrary today and how can church retrace her step.
And to respond to the OP, without meaning to sound off, my response to that is "whatever", as its a totally mute point. The Lord is building "His Church". Its positioned exactly how He wants it to be. What you do with or what is required by "your churches" is left to "you" to decide.
Sheesh! I'm going back on holiday already.
Life's a beach
Just back from holiday and still in a "loungin' kinda mood". But why oh why, can someone not rebutt the nonsensical interpretation of 1 Corinthians 9 13-14 used to justify tithing to support ministers?
“those who preach the gospel” refers to those who give up their livelihoods to propagate the good news of the gospel. Those whose devotion to this work precludes them working, usually because they are fully engaged in taking the gospel to places where it is unknown, to people who have not heard.
This is what Paul was doing. In such cases it is only right that “ministers” are cared for by those they minister too. But even this right Paul forsook, choosing to undertake menial work rather than give the gospel cause to be slandered.
It does not pertain to those who minister in local congregations. That is shepherding (of which a facet is teaching) and not to be confused with what Paul (who was working apostolically to give “foundational structure” to the church) was doing.
Every able bodied adult male is supposed to work – including ministers – except those who are displaced and unable to do so due to the reasons I outlined earlier. There is no salaried position in the local church.
^^^ I sympathise with you on the fact that people are not noticing the good things you say are being done. I believe these things should be acknowledged. I also think hypocrisy, criticising others while doing nothing yourself, is wrong.
- Using aggressive methods which include threats of not "receiving from God" to get the flock to turn out their pockets
- Using psychological methods to work crowds while promising them things that are not realistic or even of lasting importance
- Splurging in luxury
Now let's say a church collects money using the tactics above and actually spends a percentage of it on the poor and hopeless of the earth. But at the same time the pastor goes around with a private jet. (If you need to refresh your memory on the cost of parking your aircraft on the tarmac daily, use Google.) People are bound to see this as needless expenses. They will constrast it with the humble lives led by Jesus, Peter, James, Paul and the others and wonder what modern day Christian leaders are about. They will try to find the New Testament principles being followed by your leaders and fail.
Compare that with the leaders of some other religions - even within Christianity. There are no Cardinals who cruise around in private jets, yet the Catholic church has a lot of money and it spends a good deal on charity. Reminds me of that orthodox priest in the movie, Delta Force. All that kind of person is concerned about is God and humanity. He will not pass by a suffering person without stopping to say a kind word. He is ready to sacrifice his life for others at a moment's notice. Money means completely NOTHING to him. He reminds you of Jesus himself, as reported in the gospel accounts, and the apostles. Why are such leaders no more? Do you think anyone would complain about the simple car he drives and the modest house he lives even if such come from church coffers?
If you leave Christianity and talk about other religions, you will also see that things are different. Religious leaders tend to live with the people, rather than Lord it over them. But your leaders appear to be different. They tell you to contribute money in order to receive from God! And the next thing you see them living in luxury. What are people to think? There is a post in another thread about pastors who charge lots of money to appear at crusades and revivals. What are people to think? These and other brazen acts of venality are bound to eclipse whatever good is done, Tonye - at least in the minds of many people.
I respect that contribution 100%.
I feel it is simply not a good idea to condemn God's word simply because one Man of God somewhere uses it to buy bliss and live luxurious. I have always stood on the grounds that "Just because some Men of God abuses God's standards doesnt mean we should condemn such standards.
I feel it is the duty of a faithful christian to understand God on a personal basis. . .it really hurts me when i see men of God outrightly manipulating scritpures to fleece innnocent sheep. Paul strictly warned us against such people. . .but the chasm is this: BECAUSE PAUL WARNED US AGAINST EVIL MEN AND THE MANIPULATION OF SCRIPTURES TO FILL THEIR PURSE, DID HE PAUL SAY WE SHOULD THEREFORE CONDEMN SCRIPTURAL STANDARDS. . .absolutely no!
Folks always wants to find reasons to condemn Adeboye, Oyedepo, Chris on the basis of their prosperity but fail to look into/ announce the good things these men do
- I have witnessed going to a village somewhere in Akuku-toru in Rivers state and saw trailers (over 13 in number) of food stuffs, new clothes, bibles courtesy RCCG giving to those in need while preaching the gospel.
- I have seen families that lost their father (bread winners) and winners chapel church within that neighborhood help tens of these helpless young men. at least i know of 11graduates today with poor backgrounds but now living good and helping the ministry same time.
- Watch Chris' africa mission outreach, you'll see how they send aids of all types to bring smiles to these families.
Why is no one talking about these things?. . .is it because they choose to hide themselves (in line with scriptural injunctions) and do these goods that folks dont notice them?.
All those criticising prosperity gospel are the same folks who would not remove a penny to help even a widow in their neigborhood, some folks criticising are so stingy to their minds and yet they stretch their phalanges to write rubbish about simple Men of God.
why cant folks just learn to see good from others? Its really pathetic i must say!
Following from what you wrote above, do you not see why the early church used the church as a place for "food sharing" along with using it as a "place where you are fed with the word of God"? Do you not see why it is inappropriate to care for the pastor only while neglecting those who suffer?
In the olden days people lived communally and widows, orphans, the infirm, the poor, and strangers passing through, were cared for from the common purse. Giving up 10% of your earnings makes a lot of sense under these circumstances. But the case is different today. I think that is what people are mostly on about when they criticise certain things done today.
To your topic: Can Our Churches Be Repositioned?
I'll say Yes
The problem with the church is that we have so many critics who feel they know more than the biblos itself.
Inside the fold, you'll find those who subscribe to gnostic teachings and thus will criticize every church leader simply for not seeing things the gnostic way.
A notrinitarian who prolly just learnt some reasonings from some well crafted book written by unbelieving intellects will not take off some time to check whether what he ljust read and learnt corelates with the vast scriptures or not. Rather such a folk will go to his church and starts finding reasons to criticize his pastor for not buying into the nontrinitarian idea.
and the list of criticism goes on and on. Just some bunch of knowledge-puffed individual creating unrest in the supposed body of Christ.
Lets see who has the serious problem?!
Your posts are so full of subtle dumbness, now i understand your biase against the church is nothing more than sentiments and JEALOUSY for the men of God. Lest you forget or prolly dont know, lets see what Paul wrote to the corithians
1 Cor 9:13-15
13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar?
14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
15 But I have not used any of these rights. . ." NIV
Doesnt this tell your biase mindset that "Its a right for Men of God to get their food from the temple". . .whosoever does not use this right is still free to do otherwise.
A major error i have seen here is that these so called anti's do not even quote scriptures but speak and prolly write from a bittered mind. Pathetic!
Maybe Jesus' remark will put your kind under the shroud of infamy.
6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper,
7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked.
9 "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." (this is what these so-called self-righteous folks of this section keep saying, tending to look righteous b4 everyone)
10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
11 The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. NIV
Our Churches can create jobs for the jobless folks! There is money and brains in our churches! They can give charitably to those who are temporarily short and help them in getting work instead of continually taking advantage of the poor!
I remember this church where the pastor would curse the flock that didn't give money. Not only was he (still is) fleecing them in the physical; they were ( and are still) being fleeced in the spiritual. The flock is being held in bondage and most of them know it but can't leave. Unforunately for most of the flock, they have made the pastor their God and follow his instructions even where it clearly contradicts the Bible. I pray that this flock be released from captivity soon as some have been held for as long as 16 years!
God will reward us all!
A man that can't find a job should create one. There is no shame even if he has to push wheel barrow, sell okrika, pure water, newspaper, learn a trade or skill etc. But he can do better than that. His Pastor will be in the position to counsel him.
A man that is inapable doesn't exist, except if he is a vegetable in the hospital. Such should be helped of course.
A young widow should get a job, An elderly widow should be cared for by relatives but in the absence of that, the church will take care of them but they should be at least 60 years old and be submitted to a church serving God there.
Orphans are our responsibility. I have quite some that I sponsor with shelter and academics.
it is absolutely disgusting the way your thieves go to justify your perfidy. Who told you the sheep is fulfilled by losing his wool? Did the sheep tell you that it was born to provide you with wool? Have you seen sheep being sheared before? How many of them willingly run to you asking to be sheared?
Pls this post is an insult to all sheep worldwide, apologize with immediate alacrity.
Pastor agbaje has repeated this fallacy I addressed in the tithe thread.St Paul clearly stated in the scriptures that he did not receive tithes from anyone either in corinth or anywhere.He said it aboout three or four times in the bible i the book of acts,1&2 thes,i cor.
Let me reproduce some of these quotations again
2 Thessalonians 3:7-10 (New American Standard Bible)
7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you,
8nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
9not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example.
1 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (New American Standard Bible)
9For you recall, brethren, our labor and hardship, how working night and day so as not to be a burden to any of you, we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.
10You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers;
11just as you know how we were exhorting and encouraging andimploring each one of you as a father would his own children,
12so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory
10For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order:if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.]
He also spoke to the ephesians in Acts 20:33-35
Acts 20:33-35 (New American Standard Bible)
33"(A)I have coveted no one's silver or gold or clothes.
34"You yourselves know that (B)these hands ministered to my own needs and to the (C)men who were with me.
35"In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive
St Paul fended for himself and today remains the greatest winner of soul in christian history.All this talks of church cannot survive without tithes is all bullshit.
I must add that there is nothing wrong in a man[b] freely [/b] contributing to the upkeep of his pastors,but it should be of his own freewil and not something coerce by twisting any bible passage.
Take a look at the link below
Kunleoshob, and The seed of ganja
The translation is GWT (God Word Translation). Jesus took money. Money is general medium of exchange. They may have given him other things too. But definitely they gave money and he collected. Don't try to over holylise Jesus.
Where did judas get money to steal?.
WHOSE FLOCK ARE THEY? Can sheep complain during fleecing?
Flocks of sheep belong to the owner of the flock. They could be in the care of a shepherd but the shepherd has NO right to fleece flock that are not his own except for the owner's benefit - not his own. Thus, anyone who fleeces flock that do not belong to him is a thief, a criminal, a reprobate and a wolf.
And that is the problem in our society - people forget they do not own the flock and so they fight over members and you hear things like "don't steal my flock, go get your own". And that is why they fleece them too.
Sad, very sad when someone has the confidence to boastfully state he believes in his right to fleece God's flock!
Your translation of the Bible is ambiguous, Could you use the general translation and do away with that Rhapsody of reality Bible waterdone by Chris?
Repositioning Churches is achievable else where in the world, but certainly not in Nigeria and America. Let see churches the way these Peddlers sees it then we will have a Clare cut of the possibility of repositioning. Any one that made mention of that openly will be a great enemy with these guys that called themselves GOC. This suggestion is powerfull enough to through Nigeria into a state of pandemonium. These guys have grown to be Mafia godfathers having supposed believers as their boys that can carry out anything as they wish. Brethren, lets hand them over to God for quick judgment that will help more than bringing churches together like the days of old.
I don't know which twisted version of the bible you quoted luke 8:34 from, but I can assure you no decent version of the bible used the term "financial support" what the bible said is they "ministered to their needs" which is not necessarily financial. That aside no were in my writings have I ever said it is wrong to support churches or pastors financially, what I have always complained about is the abuse of this priviledge by preachers and the greed motivating them to further twist scripture to fleece the flock. Some of these fraudulent teachings. Like the mordern day version of tithing has been institutionalized in the church by theses fraudulent characters and accepted by the ignorant mumu sheep as doctrine. I think you should go and read the whole of Matthew chapter 23 to know what Jesus and God think about religious leaders like you and fellow charlatans that parade themselves as men of god.
Pau's personal decisions and choices are not rules. Why would you major on the minor. God commanded ministers to be supported, Paul personally choose to support himself in certain place because of the carnality of the people there, that doesn't make it a law for other ministers. If you study your bible well Paul recognise the fact that he was to be supported. But he just chose other wise.
He also chose not to be married, so does it make it wrong for other ministers to be married?
1 Corinthians 9:3-5
3 This is my[ real ground of] defense( my vindication of myself) to those who would put me on trial and cross- examine me. 4 Have we not the right to our food and drink[ at the expense of the churches]? 5 Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas( Peter)?
So why will you guys begin to judge other minister by a personal decision of just one person. A decision that is contrary to the general body of truth.
Honestly, this Joagbaje has very serious problems!
Now Paul is wrong because he chose to work (including menial jobs) rather than fleece the flock like the modern day charlatans including Oyaks and the fool in a suit (oyedepo) pictured smiling in his private jet that his mumu followers paid for!
Don't be surprised if Joagbaje soon says that God was wrong in the Ten commandments to say Thou shall not steal and Thou shall not covet etc ---- since those go against the avarice of thieves fleecing the flock that Joagbaje supports
For the church to be repositioned (speaking of Nigeria specifically), the first thing would be to destroy the prosperity "gospel". However, this is not likely to happen because of the extent of greed and materialistic desire prevalent in our urban societies/communities especially.
In the past the church was seen as a place to go in order to take one's mind off the things of the world and to contemplate higher values. Today, the "church" is where to go to look for things of the world and to place one's mind deep in the gutter/sewer/soakaway ----------- especially if the "church" is "pastored" by the likes of Joagbaje.
I don't know what forms your biases against men of God. The ministry is a sacred place. A fleshly man can not last or survive it. It is a call. You blaspheme against Gods spirit by the calumnious remarks against ministers od God. I know you feel youre doing God a service . What you're doing is a sin.
Paul was not a perfect man.Jesus took support, Paul also took support except in Corinth because of the attitude of people there. Paul descision was wrong, and paul's action and mistakes is not a standard for the church.
It is God thAt calls a man. Paul is not a standard for assessment of a minister. It not every pastor that is called into full time ministry. Many pastors work. Except the ones that God would not allow to work by the virtue of their responsibility in ministry. A minister ought to be supported . God has ordained it to be so. And any one that gives to a minister gets blessed for it. So at the end of the day, everybody wins. Those who gave didn't give at a loss.Will you call Jesus a thiief ?
I will like to know your comment on these scriptures?
Luke 8:3 ( GWT)
3 Joanna, whose husband Chusa was Herod's administrator; Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.
1 Corinthians 9:13-14
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live[ of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
6 Those who are taught the Word of God should help their teachers by paying them.
7 Don't be misled; remember that you can't ignore God and get away with it: a man will always reap just the kind of crop he sows!
Take note of the highlighted part. So Who loses?
Going by your above post, so why do most pastors today prefer not to work but live off the sweat of others by distorting scripture? Why can't they follow the example of Paul and the otherapostles in that passage and get a decent Job? Yet they want to eat the best food, wear the finest clothes, drive the flashiest cars and cruise around in private jets thru commercialization of the gospel Jesus clearly instructed must be preached free.
Church is a place where you are fed with the word of God , and not food sharing . Ofcourse if a brother is destitute, he should be helped but not by spoon feeding him. He should work!. I will rather establish a man in a petty trade than handing down food . We may eat together in love feast. But not for certain individual living on hands down from others. Christ didn't die to make you live in poverty. A man should be encouraged to work.
2 Thessalonians 3:10-11
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all,
For the church to be repositioned, it must start from within. Nowadays there is a lot of hypocrisy going on in the church. People attend church like attending a Clinic for healing of some kind of sickness or ailment. A place where u can get ideas on how to get rich. A RAT RACE.
The church should go back to what the early christians were doing. helping each other, praying in unity for the gospel to reach the unsaved, and living in righteousness. In essence living the life of a christian. The bible says where 2 or 3 gather in my name, there shall I be. "In my name" meaning putting christ first before anything else. The church becoming a place where the 7 Spirits of the Lord are manifested to the fullest.
Such is the will of God.
in your own opinion, Why do you think that cannot be acheivable in this present Christiandom?
Are you suggesting that tithes is not biblical or the wrong application? Try to maintain the topic. Thanks and God bless.
@ all we as Christians should pursuit that which is right in the sight of God and not neccessary in the sight of Man.
DONT MIND THESE THIEVES WHO CLAIM THAT CHRISTIANS ARE MANDATED TO PAY TITHES TO HELP THEIR PASTORS WHEN THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES THAT IS NOT TRUE.
THE EARLY CHRISTIANS LIVED A COMMUNAL LIFE ,WHERE EVERYONE BENEFITED FROM EACHOTHER'S WEALTH,I DOUBT IF WE CAN ACHIEVE THAT AGAIN IN COMTEMPORARY CHRISTIANITY