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Did God Foresee The Fall Of Mankind ?

If god is all knowing then why didn't he foresee the fall of mankind in the garden of eden ? If he foresaw the fall of mankind but did nothing about it then doesn't that mean he is a cruel sadistic god instead of a loving one ?

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The sooner we realize that God is at the helm of every affair;everything that takes place in this life, the better it is for us to understand him and his purpose.

Col 1:16-17

(16)  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(17)  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The verse above is more than enough to say that all things; whether good or bad, nice or evil, all things that exist(which includes the devil) were created by God and for him(for his purpose) and all things by him consist(Originate (in),Have its essential character; be comprised or contained in; be embodied in, Be composed of).

The devil at work was created by God;it is by him and for him(that is; for his purpose).

God's word tells us so and it stands no matter how uncomfortable it might make man feel or think about it.

Rather than wonder at how unimaginable it is,we should try to determine the purpose for it.

Eph 1:11

(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 11:34-36

(34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

(35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

(36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

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'and even if We had sent down to you (O muhammad) a message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said,' this is nothing but pure magic' Quran 6:7

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The truth is that man can never fully comprehend nor understand God. The biblical writters wrote their accounts in their understanding which would have been very limited as at the time they were alive, that aprt it is quite evident that there is a lot which God is yet to reveal to mankind.

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@olabowale, you are very right. Islam has the perfect set of intelligent and wise people. In fact their believers have no questions in life, neither do they waste their time in trying to understand life because it is all already very clear to them.

@Ttalks:

First I must commend you for accepting your mistake. However, it seems your knowledge of the devil is very limited.

So I will give ye what thoust requires and let ye speak for thine own

Isaiah 14:12 goes in this way 'How You are fallen form heaven. O Lucifer(Lucifer also means day star), son of the morning!

How You are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!'

Is 14:13: For you have said on your heart:

'I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt omy throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest side of the norht;

Is:14:14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.'

Now as for the significance of stars,

Revelations:9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Stars singify the angels

Re:12:1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Re:12:2: Then being with child she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth

Re:12:3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Re:12:4: His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her Child as soon as it was born.

Re:12:7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angelsfought,

Re:12:8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Re:12:9: So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devila and Satan, who decieves the whole world was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him

Re:12:10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for [bold]the accuser of our brethren[/bold] is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Re:12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. [bold]Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea![/bold] for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea:

Does this mean that there are other inhabiters of other stars and that earth is not special but doomed

Does this mean that there are beings of the sea like us in the sight of God (maybe in another realm)?

Or does it mean woe to all creation of the earth and the sea, thus insinuating that the devil has brought evil amongst animals and erasing the belief that animals are not important like us?

Anyway. If you read this well you will see the point of my question.

If the Devil can do such harm and you say God created him,

You should remember that God is the Father of all he created

So the same God that is all good,

and all powerful,

and all knowing,

and all merciful,

created Evil

and left it to damage his creation starting from the war in heaven

And his angels were able to defeat a power that drew a third of the stars with its tail

The angels rejoiced that this power has been chased down from the heaven (This clearly shows that he was being tolerated before)

and that God could not do anything about it although his all pwerful

and although He was all merciful, He will never forgive the devil who is bound to hades

If God is all knowing does that mean that when before you were born He knew whether you are going to heaven or hell?

If you say so, then you see why you are making the person who says

'A God that plays prank on his people'

A God watching His people wrath in pain and anger of the devil

This same God created the evil knowingly to punish man?

Now God can do everything

The only reason that man could have disobeyed was that man was not perfect

So it was God that created an imperfect creation

And knew he was going to disobey him

and created the evil to drive war against Himself

and then His own creation?

So those who say we have God to blame in all are then right?

Because He is then the behind-perpetrator of all that happen

Be careful in your accusations of God

because it will may be blasmpehmy when You say God created evil

There was nowhere it was written in the Bible either

The serpent is just an animal that was created by God

It was the wisest animal

So the devil used it for his purpose of deceit

And after that the serpent was punished (for contaminating man), so don't make childish inferencs using that

Peace

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Catch-22.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have been clever by half about this:

They say God could have known what would happen, but he simply chose to suspend his power of looking into the future in this one instance.

Amost clever explanation, one'd say, except it patently absurd.

.

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This arguer for God shows an adept erudition in matters of the bible.his argumentative skill is also commendable,displaying an effortless ability to stand by ones point and belief.however,his arguement is inconsistent with the widely held believe in the omniscience,omnipresence,omnipotence and benevolence of God.if he asserts that the devil has been evil from creation,he contradicts the infinte benevolence of God.more so is he confused if the point is that the devil became disobedient and rebellious-this is an aberration to the omniscience of God.his arguement is characterised by an inability to read and interprete the bible objectivey.otherwise,he would come to terms with inconsistencies in the biblical accounts which modern believers try to latch together.mood,reason,need and objectives influence record of events.why does he not consider a dialectical composition of the the universe;in which case he recognises the continuous struggle and inevitable unity of opposites.thus,the idea of an omni benevolent God is abandoned for a more realistic,protector-and-punisher concept.

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So Kunle is saying that what Christian and Jewish God provided is not enough to understand anything or enough to navigated the maze of life; from cradle to grave? When will this God provides you what is missing?

If you have no answer; Quran will be an adequate spiritual drinking fountain, to quench your taste, each time you need to replenish! Dont be arrogant to take me up on this offer; Its free.

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@Noetics15: « #30 on: Today at 10:39:08 PM »

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@Noetic15: « #20 on: October 02, 2009, 09:37 PM »

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To all and indeed at Atheist: Allah knows that man will fall from His guidance, before He created Adam, if you read Verse 30 of Surah Baqarah onward.

2:30: And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."

Satan did not obey Allah by not bowing, and sets up forward the dynamics which finally led Adam and Hawa to be sent out from Paradise and sent down to earth, along with Satan who used to be Iblis, before his disobedience: Verses 37/39; What you will realise here is that Allah created Adam in heaven, then created his mate, Hawa and asked then to enter Paradise.

As planned for earth, in Verse 30, the process of evil from Iblis have to be put in place so that there is a natural reason for mankind to leave Paradise which they have tasted the sweetness, to earth, and a longing for which the to look forward to as a goal as Allah gives guidance of how to achieve it in the revelations to the prophets, if they are followed, by the people under the prophetic office iof said prophet of your time.

Muhammad (AS) is mine and Quran is the guidance, considering that the roadmap for guidance is perfect in it, and unchanging and no need to be updated: Read the inspiration of Allah on Adam and hawa for a way to seek forgiveness, while in Surah Araf verses 10 through 30, you will see the obstinance of Stan not willing to acceptance guidance because of arrogance and pride. Also in these verses you will see the mercy of Allah on mankind allowing and acceptace repentance!

2:37: Then Adam received from his Lord Words . And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.

2:38 : We said: "Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.

2:39 : But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.

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This God must be a comedian.

playing a prank on his creations.

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Are you trying to tell me that God knowingly brought evil into this world?

God created something he knew would fight and destroy his creations?

That God created something that was evil?

That God even in all his power could not immediately destroy the devil when he disobeyed?

Think

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a. do u know that the location of the garden of eden was described by the bible?

b. do u know that God physically planted the garden and that all "events" as obtainable in a planting season took place in this garden? if the garden was in heaven, does rain fall in heaven? does irrigation happen in heaven?

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^^^ Explain these if you can:

"And the Lord God said: Behold, the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever/ Therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. . . so he drove out the man. . . and placed cherubims and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the TREE of Life. . .(Genesis 3: 22 - 24).

Noetic, reflect on this closely. Does it seem to you that this was an earthly event?

Does this have traces of a spiritual happening in the Divine Realm. . . from where man was cast out, to come here to "till the ground". . . and a Cherubim placed, with a sword, to guard the Tree of Life. . .?

What do you think that "Tree" is, and does it seem to you that it can be placed on Earth. . . ? Because the account shows that even God and other heveanly beings may have obtained their "eternal nature" from it? ? ?

Noetic, read that whole account again very very very carefully.

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and whats the basis of this? any proof?

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I would have to say it here that in light of what the scripture says, we do not have any freewill.

The so called free will which most think we have is not free but subject to the will of God.

Definition of freewill:

- The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

Our will is not free since it is influenced by external agencies.

Rom 9:16-21

(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

(18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 8:20

(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Our wills are subject to God's will and purpose. Our so called free will is influenced by what God's will and purpose is and therefore isn't free.

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Logical fallacy you are comparing oranges to apples i.e parents to god. God created a flawed being intentionally and then punished it for being flawed.

Did God give us free will ? When ?

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If a child chooses to disobey its parent's rules, will it be fair to say its the parent's will? How does God having to know that the first humans would eventually sin, have to do with His character? The fact is His knowing didn't affect their choice.

You cannot expect God on the one hand to give us freedom of will, and choice, and not integrate the risk factor of the consequences of failure to obey.

I mean God could have created robots if He so desired, but how would we show love freely if not by choice? Love for God has to be part of that choice.

Rather than create Automotons, God was prepared to take the risk of allowing evil to manifest itself.

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Definition of evil : morally objectionable behavior

Why would an all loving,powerful and knowing god participate in morally objectionable behavior ? So whats the difference between god and satan if god is the creator of evil ?

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We already know where evil comes from, its gods will. If it is not his will then why does he allow it to happen ?

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Isa 45:5-7

(5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

(6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God created evil.And all the evil we see is as a result of that which he created.

I guess u'd say, "aha!", but that's because u still haven't seen the bigger picture.

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I am sorry its far bigger than that. Its not a question of God's ability, or inability, unwillingness, or willingness.

If your only concern is where evil came from, then I am ready to start explaining. Is that your starting question?

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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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That is true, but they are more eager to find out if God is to blame for not preventing the outcome, or finding out why would such a God after having known still allowed it anyway. That is what is causing the confusion.

They are not prepared to see the bigger plan, or purpose that would have manifested for all God's creation, despite sin and its awful results.

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I wish your question was based on a sincere desire to know the truth, but alas I am disappointed. First of all God by virtue of being God had to have known beforehand that Adam and Eve would have fallen.

However, God having a foreknowledge of that outcome had nothing to do with their choice. All of God's intelligent creatures that were made after His image, and likeness were made as free moral agents. They were made to understand the consequences that would follow if and when they chose to move from God's plan.

For you to fully grasp the true understanding of why God allowed certain things to have happened, without having to intervene, is to first understand the nature and character of God. Unfortunately, you don't, and I am not even sure if you're willing to find out, but just in case you are willing I'd be more than prepared to supply you with an explanation.

For every question of aspersion that is brought up against God, there is an explanation.

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Enlightenment of my fellow human beings

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Rom 8:19-21

(19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

(21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 1:11

(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The fall of man was all part of God's purpose. Everything that is happening or has been happening and will happen is all according to his purpose.

How you view it is based on how you view the whole picture.

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Has it occured to you that the "Fall of Man" may refer to Mankind's departure from the spiritual realm towards the world of matter, for the purpose of experiencing and growing?

Has it occured to you that "the garden of Eden" may refer to a spiritual home of mankind which was never on this earth? And that the "Fall" may refer to the leaving of that home to come to this world?

Do these two little teasers make you see that there are many suppositions that you have not even yet considered?

And that this subject is deeper than mere heckling?

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if you say you have no religion and arent Christian, why is it your concern?

I already know the answer so dont bother with a response.

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@ Kolaxy

So the christian god is not loving,merciful and fair. Do you agree ?

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