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Did Jesus Teach That Good Unbelievers Can Go To Heaven?

There has been several unsuccessful attempts by atheists, deists and "Christians" to assert that those who dont acknowledge the salvation of Jesus Christ as evidenced on the cross, will still make it to Jesus heaven. . . . . if they are good/full of love.

They also claimed that this is deducible from the teachings of Jesus Himself,  . . . I am yet to be convinced. that explains why I have encouraged them to open a new thread to educate our collective ignorance.

This thread now invites: kunleOshob, PastorAIO and DeepSight. .  . . .to tell us how it is possible to disbelieve/reject the salvation of Jesus and still make it to Jesus heaven.

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72 answers

@ Donnie .

They are simply religious people who thought they knew something. You have relly tried , All these just reveal we have much work to do in the teaching of the truth

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Acts 4:10-12

10. Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12. NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: FOR THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.

THERE IS NO SHORT-CUT (GOOD DEEDS, YET STILL REJECTING CHRIST JESUS AS LORD, GOD AND SAVIOUR OF MANKIND) TO HEAVEN;

MY FRIENDS, AVOID THAT WIDE GATE THAT LEADS TO DISTRUCTION (THE LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL THAT ALL RELIGIONS AND BELIEVES LEADS TO GOD), AND ENTER INTO THE NARROW GATE (THE LORD JESUS CHRIST) THAT LEADS TO LIFE ETERNAL!!!!

FOR JESUS IS THE (DEFINITE ARTICLE) WAY, THE (DEFINITE ARTICLE) TRUTH, AND THE (DEFINITE ARTICLE) LIFE!!!!! ---- JOHN 14:6

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If you are  not sure of your own salvation now, then like Kunle, you too are lost!

That is why we are commanded to examine oursselves whether we be in the faith.

What you are offended at is not pride but my conviction in what i believe.

True humility is submitting your self to the simplicity of the gospel without trying to think that you could have by any means saved yourself apart from Christ's

work of salvation on the cross. It is by that same grace and the power of the Holy Spirit that we are kept pure to the end. Love will necessarily flow from a heart that is full of the presence of God's Spirit.

Rom 5:5

5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

NKJV

You dont struggle to keep commandments or to please God with good works. It is your nature to do righteousness if you are born again!

There is a Spirit we have within us that is our constant assurance of his ownership over our lives and also for  the redemption of our bodies at the rapture.

It is not by chance or by luck so be warned.

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@donnie

So you are so sure of your own salvation. You feel so sure of your salvation because you believe that Jesus was crucified for your sins; so you pity the likes of KunleOshob who you called the child of Satan just because he does not believe in your illusory justification by belief in Jesus' Crucifixion.

To the likes of you, who are so confident of their own salvation and look down on everybody else, the bible told this parable: 

“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.  The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself:  ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men — robbers, evildoers, adulterers — or even like this tax collector.  I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance.  He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his bosom and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.  For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14)

You sound like the Pharisee in the parable. You better stand perpetually in humble supplication to God so that you may be given the strength to overcome yourself. Don't remain in your atitude of spiritual superiority and don't look down on others. Be careful, that day you may see KunleOshob allowed into paradise while you are denied entrance.

Thanks

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. . . And that is why the wolf/child of satan called KunleOsob (posing in sheep clothing as christian) will continue to post ignorance such as this all around nairaland:

Besides belief in Jesus could also be interpreted to mean belief in his gospel which was essentially Love to God and Love to fellow men whcu can be practicalized by living a good life. As you may be unaware there are a good number of translation errors in the bible which have vastly affected doctrine today.

And what about God's love for us which necessitated His sending his only begotten son to die? Until that is understood, and humbly aceepted as ultimate truth, while you personally declare his Lordship over your life, recieving  from Him eternal life, His own very life and nature into your Spirit, you will never know salvation or peace, let alone how to love Him or your fellow men.

I thought for a moment; why is it so difficult for you to see or speak the truth? .  . . The answer came. . . you are not of the truth. Then these scriptures:

Matt 13:14-15:

14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,

And seeing you will see and not perceive; 

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.

Their ears are hard of hearing,

And their eyes they have closed,

Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,

Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,

So that I should heal them.' 

NKJV

That is why we will keep praying for you that God will have mercy on you and that by his grace your may find salvation and rest for your soul.

There will be no salvation where the power of God's Spirit is absent. It is the Spirit that moves believers to pray for lost souls. That is why men of God who have led many to salvation are also known to be men of deep prayer and intecession who know how to cry before  the Lord for the lost.

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All our righteousness and goodness are like filthy rags b4 the Almighty God.so salvation of Jesus is the only way ur good works can please God.if u are a loving and kind person,the light of God can not shine on that person because He that knoweth not Jesus knoweth not the Father(GOD).ALL UR GOOD WORKS ARE VAIN WITHOUT FAITH iN Him( JOHN 3 VRS 36)

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how so convenient. u simply refused to answer any of my questions. . . . .how helpful is that?

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Point of correction, you are not only talking out of point, you are also uttering absolute rubbish.

The truth to be found in it I already have i.e. love of your fellow man for the general well being of the human race, maybe that is what you should be looking for rather than a magic carpet ride to sugarcandy mountain.

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I beleive the answer to the highlighted question above was answered by the master himself in the passage below:

Mark 12:1-12:

1 Then Jesus began teaching them with stories: “A man planted a vineyard. He built a wall around it, dug a pit for pressing out the grape juice, and built a lookout tower. Then he leased the vineyard to tenant farmers and moved to another country. 2 At the time of the grape harvest, he sent one of his servants to collect his share of the crop. 3 But the farmers grabbed the servant, beat him up, and sent him back empty-handed. 4 The owner then sent another servant, but they insulted him and beat him over the head. 5 The next servant he sent was killed. Others he sent were either beaten or killed, 6[b] until there was only one left—his son whom he loved dearly. The owner finally sent him, thinking, ‘Surely they will respect my son.’

   7 “But the tenant farmers said to one another, ‘Here comes the heir to this estate. Let’s kill him and get the estate for ourselves!’ 8 So they grabbed him and murdered him and threw his body out of the vineyard.[/b]

As per the truth of the Gospel Jesus preached, i would suggest you go back and study his teachings in the Gospels all over again with an open mind. I believe the truth would be revealed to you if you truly seek it.

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@davidylan

be careful of reading your own beleifs in the bible. Mathew7 21 is contradictory to Hebrews 9: 18. denying this only makes you apear like you are a religiouse fanatic.

Mathew 7;21 made it clear that only those who do the will of God will enter his kingdom. Hebrews says that there has to be shading of blood before remition of sins. These two verses are very different and everybody know that Mathew 7:21 does not mean shading blood when it says the will of God. How can you say that by saying "doing the will of God'  Mathew means shadding blood? that is an absurd conclution.

Poeple still do animal sercrifice today. Cult people do it, traditional africans do it. That does not mean that it is the will od God. Cult members secrifice thier sons, so this is the will of God? Animal sacrifice did not start with the jews, all ancient people did it.

I agree with just col. knowing that there was man called Jesus, or even calling him father, lord, etc does not mean that you are child of God. It does not mean that you will go to heaven. It does not mean that you a closer to Jesus than others. Only those that do the will of God will enter heaven.

The verse is clear. it not all those that scream Jesus, or all those that preach Jesus, or all those that perform miracles in his name. Those are not the important thing. The important thing is to do the will of God. Which is to repent and sin no more because sin cannot enter heaven even if you know every thing written about Jesus, if you are sinful you cannot enter heaven.

@justcool

What is your religiouse orientation?

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This is frankly absurd. Did Jesus not teach about His own death and the significance?

What are the teachings of Christ?

John 3.

You seem to be making up your own doctrine as you go.

More mindless delusion.

But He was pretty clear that without salvation you are condemned already.

He gave them that tradition dude. I'm sick of the ridiculous heresies and the forced twisting of scripture to conform to a Christless belief that still hopes to enter heaven.

I repeat . . . if you will not believe the bible, you can create your own heaven and go there. No one is stopping you.

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@davidylan

Thanks so much for your reply but I completely disagree with you.

In the scripture you quoted:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." I do not see where it says that one must believe in the murder of Jesus to be saved. To believe in Jesus entails to live according to His teachings, and Jesus taught nothing but the will of God. So to believe in Jesus is to live His teaching, thus to do the will of God.

Anybody who does the will of God will attain salvation, and will in the end come to the recognition of Jesus. It doesn't matter wheather that person while on earth, knows that about Jesus. Thus somebody can read the bible or history and know about Jesus, but as long as that person does not live in the will of God, or as long as that person does not have genuine love in his hearth, that person has not come to the recognition of Jesus.

Genuine love only comes from Jesus; one who posses genuine love is already on his way to the recognition of Jesus, such a person is on his way to heaven, whether he consciously know about Jesus while he was on earth or not.

I agree that I am a nobody, and in no way do I seek to elevate myself, I am only being honest. I don't agree with that verse in Hebrews. Everybody is entitled to his own beliefs. Even Jesus who is the son of God, never forced people to accept his teachings. One who does not agree with anything, should be honest enough to declare that he does not agree with it. This is not being arrogant. Accepting what does not make sense to me will not lead me anywhere; that will only make a hypocrite. Blind faith is no faith.

Thanks

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In the bible there is a clear distinction made between two covenants - the old and the new.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

The author of Hebrews makes it quite clear . . . the use of blood as the binding force for the old covenant was already well established. It was not a new concept that the author of Hebrews dreamt up in his sleep.

When it comes to the NEW COVENANT . . . things becamse different. Every year the jews had to go up to the temple to slaughter bulls and cows to renew the old testament and cleanse themselves from sin. Rather than continue to burden us with this rituals which were unable to save completely, Christ came to shed His own blood AS A BINDING FORCE FOR A NEW TESTAMENT (whosoever believes shall be saved).

Again this is NOT a silly prank that the author of Hebrews dreamt up, he takes very careful patience to build up his case right from Hebrews chapter 4 (which lazy, ignorant people never bother to read before arrogantly declaring their disagreement with Heb 9:22).

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you are thoroughly, hopelessly and DELIBERATELY confused here. There is no contradiction between Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 9:22. The only problem is that you WANT TO FORCEFULLY impose your own selfish will on the bible. Matthew 7:21 is explicit that those who do the will of God will be saved . . . the shedding of Christ's blood to save us from sin IS THE CARDINAL POINT of God's will! God's will for us is that we believe in Him who He has sent, His sacrifice on the cross for our sins . . . repentance unto salvation. Hebrews 9:22 merely confirms this by telling us what we already knew from the gospels . . . without the shedding of Christ's blood, there is no cleansing from sin.

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this verse is self-explanatory to those who are genuinely interested in the gospel of salvation and not those who are merely seeking holes. Now did you ask yourself the very simple question posed by Matthew 7:21 - WHAT IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN?

Well that same Jesus explains it QUITE LUCIDLY John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What is most laughable to me here is the sheer audacity of complete nobodies who stand up to declare that they "disagree" with a gospel that has withstood 2000 yrs of constant repudiation and yet remains a shinning beacon of God's love, hope and undying mercy in the hearts of those who love and cherish His words.

Now this fellow claims he "disagrees" with the writer of Hebrews because, IN HIS OWN ARROGANT, UNFOUNDED AND BASELESS OPINION, God does not need to shed blood in order to remit sins. Who is Justcool by the way? When did he become a mouthpiece to tell us exactly what God should and should not do?

Is he aware that the shedding of animal sacrifice had LONG BEEN the jewish tradition of cleansing sin? Is he aware that the shedding of Christ's blood was a symbolic one-time sacrifice to replace the yearly sacrifice of bulls and goats for sin?

I already did. The problem is not Matthew 7 but your own ignorance and disbelief.

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I was reluctant to post on this thread because I perceive that posters have made up their minds and no amount argument will change any of the poster's mind. Besides, m_nawnkwo has spoken very wisely on this issue, and I completely agree with him. This post is directed to davidylan who quoted some scriptures in his last post.

@ davidylan,

Please would you be kind enough as to explain to us the meaning of the scriptures below(Mathew Chapter 7), especially the parts in red and bold.

It says "Only those that do the will of His father" will enter heaven. Why didn't the verse say, "Only those that believe that His blood was shed for them," will enter heaven.

The thing with scriptures is that almost every verse has another verse that annuls it. This is why in the light of the scriptures below, I disagree with Hebrews 9:22:

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

(Hebrews 9:22)

I don't know who wrote Hebrews but I completely disagree with him. God does not need to shed blood in-order to remit sins. God is not a ritualist.

Please explain the scriptures below for me.

[Quote]

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

[/quote]

(Mathew chapter 7)

See Mathew 7:21 made it clear that only those who do the will of God will be saved. Thus doing the will of God is the requirement for salvation and forgiveness of sins. But Hebrew 9:22 says that shading of blood(murder) is the prerequisite. The individual is left to choose which scripture to accept as the Truth. I have chosen to accept Mathew 7:21. Whatever choice you make it yours.

Thanks.

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@ Noetic 15

Thank you for your kind words. I do respect your views although I do not agree with them. Let me address some of the issues that you have raised.

Jesus is not a prophet but the son of God, a part of God the Father. Prophets are either human spirits or in some cases spirits that are higher than human spirits. Because prophets are creatures, they are incapable of revealing the entire Truth. Thus, their message are simply recognitions that is revealed to them from Above. Thus their message or gospel consist of recognitions of aspects of the will of God. Even these aspects of the will of God are colored by the spiritual maturity of each prophet as well as the prevailing culture around the prophet. Prophets are also limited in Power since they are creatures and not part of God. Thus the prophets you mentioned and several others you did not mention brought limited recognitions of the will of God to various peoples. The darkness that enveloped humankind and their earthly environment was so much that the limited recognitions of the various prophets as well as their limited spiritual power cannot penetrate the darkness. The power of darkness has become so strong that any good volition is snuffed out even before it has a chance to become a deed. Thus the suffocating darkness separated humankind from God. Humanity was in danger of spiritual death. Here and there few spirit sparks are praying fervently to God to deliver them from the clutches of darkness. The power of the prophets is no longer a march to Lucifer and his henchmen. Humanity was in danger of eternal damnation. Their is only one choice left to save humanity, a direct intervention from God himself. God the Father out of love for the very few who are holding on to his will in-spite of the suffocating darkness severed a part of himself and incarnated it in a male sex-Jesus of Nazareth. Thus Jesus is a part of the God the Father and thus a son of God. Being an incarnation of God, Jesus brought light into the darkness. Because Jesus, is the son of God he has the power to transmit the Truth as well as the divine omnipotence that resulted in instantaneous miracles. No creature, prophet or angel no matter how blessed will be able to transmit the complete truth as Jesus did nor can they bring about instantaneous miracles as Jesus did. The instantaneous raising of Lazurus from the dead is just one example of what divine power can do. Indeed only the Truth can transmit truth. Prophets can only transmit limited reflection or images of some aspects of the Truth. Since Jesus is the LIFE, THE TRUTH AND THE WAY, he can transmit truth and life to humankind. The truth and the life lies in his message, in his words. You should remember that Jesus is the word of God made flesh. Thus Jesus is his words and his words is Jesus. Only when a man understands that Jesus and his words are the same thing will it be possible to recognize the mission of Jesus. None of the prophets you mentioned ever said that they are one with God the Father. Non of them ever claimed that they are the son of God. Indeed John the Baptist as well as John the apostle were prepared for thousands of years in non visible realms so that they can serve the son of God when he walks on earth. But the purpose of this reply is not to go into unveiling some of these mysteries.

I have in my penultimate post stated that the death of Jesus is not the will of God. Jesus carries the will of God in himself and it is absurd that he will be praying for the will of God when he knows that will. How can a part of God the Father not know the will of God the Father? Is the betrayal by Judas, the mockery by the crowd, the trial, as well as the accusations by the high priests also the will of God? Before Jesus was incarnated on earth it was known that their is a possibility that he will be murdered. Jesus himself knew this. Prophets who were permitted access to the laws of God prophesied about it. Humanity were like wolfs and Jesus is a lamb being sent to a pack of wolves. The prophecies were actually to induce reflection and tame the wolfs so that they will take the message of the lamb and change themselves. We are free to make choices but once the choice is made, the road it will travel as it germinates precisely follows the map which God has placed in creation. That is the reason why God or those he blessed with the power can foresee events thousands and millions of years before they happen physically. If the spiritual condition at the time of prophecy remain the same as the earthly time for the materialization of the prophecy, then a prophecy will change from a possibility to a probability and then a certainty. Thousands of years before Jesus incarnated on earth, it was seen from Above that humanity is following darkness and thus if they continue on that path, they will attack and kill the son of God. As Jesus entered his mission, he knew that the darkness has more followers then than thousands of years earlier. It became clear to him that this prophecy about his death will become a certainty. Not because it is the will of his father but because humanity are disobeying the will of God and will not waste time in executing the son of God. The death of Jesus is simply a consequence of the evil volition of men under the prompting of Lucifer, the Antichrist.

You have not yet explained why a physical blood will wash away sins or bring spiritual redemption. Is the blood of Jesus not physical? To expect forgiveness from physical objects or anything that has form is idolatory and their can be no exception. What is it in the blood of Jesus that gives it this divine ability to wash away and forgive sins? Jesus is the word of God in flesh and blood. When Jesus talks about his blood and flesh, they are a symbolic representation of the living word of God that is Jesus. To interpret reference to flesh and blood literally will be equivalent to saying that Jesus is offering his physical flesh and blood. That will tantamount to cannibalism and even you will be aghast to canibalism even if it is the flesh and blood of Jesus that is offered. The sharing of bread and wine is a strong reminder to us of the seriousness of the truth that Jesus brought, a truth so serious that Jesus was willing to bring this Truth to us at the risk of his death. It tells us that Jesus was absolutely certain that he is the son of God and is absolutely convinced of his mission. That is why he did not shun physical death. Just an analogy, you are ordered at gun point to kill your friend or else you will be killed yourself. If you are certain that the murder of your friend is evil, you will refuse to kill your friend and dam the consequence of physical death. You faced death because of your conviction that killing your friend is evil. In similar vein Jesus faced death as a stamp of his convictions. Remember that the major charge against him is that he claims to be a son of God. The sharing of bread and wine is a luminous ceremony that happens in all genuine temples of God in heavenly spheres. Jesus brought such a ceremony to his disciples and all men. But again it is not the purpose of this reply to explain  these mysteries.

I have already given explanation on prophecies. That Jesus knew that he will die is not an evidence that he approved of it or that it is the will of God. There are many things that God knew but such are not his will. God knew of the activities of Lucifer and his followers. Are the evil activities of Lucifer and his followers the will of God?

I have already explained why I do not agree with your interpretation of the the mission, death and resurrection of Jesus. Stay blessed.

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I dont understand why those who declare themselves to be doing good need to force themselves into the biblical heaven culled from the same bible they regard as irrelevant.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Literal explanation of all 5 examples:

1. The candidacy to heaven is very simple - YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN . . . it doesnt matter what you do that you self righteously term as "good". If you think your own personal "good" is enough to get you to heaven, create your own heaven and go there.

2. Without the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross, all your own "goodness" is irrelevant. However if you still feel you MUST go to heaven because of your "good" deeds, create your own heaven and go there.

3. The only route to salvation is BELIEVING IN JESUS CHRIST . . . if you choose not to believe, thrash the bible as a collection of medieval myths . . . then i wonder why you feel you reserve the right to enter heaven anyway. You can create your own.

4. Whosoever shall NOT call on the name of the Lord shall NOT be saved . . . good deeds or not.

5. As many as did NOT recieve Him, to them He did NOT bother to give power to become anything they wilfully chose to reject.

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Perhaps, if you consider allowing people who do good go to heaven as portraying the bible in a negative light.

can you please quote just 5 of the other verses that corroborate it ?

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funny how you insist on a literal translation of the bible when it comes to portraying it in a negative light.

I do not need to repeat the statement in Hebrew, there are far too many bible verses corroborating it.

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[center]HEAVEN is the honeymoon of Christ and the church. Yall coming back down to Earth - Matthew 5:5 [/center]

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Can yu repeat that statement in Hebrew? are yu sure that is the semantic translation of that statement? are all bible scholars agreed that those statements should be interpreted literaly?

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[center]HEAVEN is the honeymoon of Christ and the church. Yall coming back down to Earth - Matthew 5:5 [/center]

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I am a late comer to this thread but it shldnt take 2 pages to answer the thread -

NO! He that believeth NOT is condemned ALREADY!

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@ KunleOshob

Thank u for ur response. I would however like to know what the "TRUTH" of Jesus gospel was. what was the truth about? was it the same message primordial prophets have preached? why would Jesus have to come and deliver the message Himself? why did he not just send a prophet?

can u shed more light and educate me on ur understanding of the salvation of Jesus? I want to understand what u understand as the salvation of Jesus?

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@ m_nwankwo

Let me start by commending ur inherent ability to intelligibly present ur thoughts and analyses. Though I disagree with ALL your assertions, I must however commend ur tenacity, conviction and intellectual strength to present and defend ur beliefs. I commend u because, u are the ONLY one who I have debated on this forum (in the past two years) who was bold enough to produce an explicit analyses of his thoughts, beliefs and convictions regardless of how disagreeable they sound. Let me add that while I disagree, I also find ur points unconvincing though salient.

1. What is the essential message of God that the prophets sould not deliver, that the Son had to come and deliver Himself? If the message of Christ was just the "TRUTH" like u love to illustrate then one would wonder why John the baptist could not deliver that message or why there was no prophet recorded in the scriptures between malachi and mathew, which was a period of 400 years. One had to wonder what was so unique about the message and physical manifestation of God that the prophets could not deliver.

before the advent of Jesus, there were many prophets with innumerable works and miracles. Some included Elisha, Elijah and moses. This simply implies that the miracles of Jesus could not have been the unique issue about Jesus.

You would agree with me that the unique point of Jesus visitation was His message. but the content of that message is what we both differ on. It is in light of this that I state that ur analogy above about the death of Jesus does not hold water. I would like to reiterate here that the core message of Jesus was His death and resurrection as defined by the love He commanded. On these basis I make the following assertions.

a. The death of Jesus was the will of God.

# The prayer of Jesus in the garden was very simple. that the will of God be done. To suggest that Jesus died outside of God's will is to suggest that His prayer in the garden was not answered. . .what then is the basis of the xtian/beliver's prayer.

# His coming, death and ressurection was long prophesied long before the principal actor in His murder/crucifixion was born. His death was prophesied hundreds of years before Judas was born, before the priests were born and before the castigators were born. fro where did these prophecies come from? they came from God and God's will alone was done.

# Jesus gave several hints that He was to be killed. And He also illustrated on several occasions that His victory over death would be the basis of the new covenant. He said that "break this temple, and I will raise it in 3 days" . . . . .he was refering to himself. He mentioned severally in Luke 22:22 Luke22:53 and mathew 26:53 that He was to be betrayed and would die. I believe that Jesus was aware of His death and this death was the will of God.

# Apostle Paul would later state that If Christ did not die or ressurect, that there would be no basis for Christianity. This message implies that the crux of the xtian faith and hope lies solely in the divinity of Jesus as expressed on the cross and His ressurection.

b. The blood of Jesus wipes away sin.

I understand that ur position might be influenced from the bastardization of the blood of Jesus by the present day church, but ur position is very far from the truth.

The blood of Jesus is an integral and essential part of the gospel, and as a matter of fact, this is the ONLY thing Christ wants the church to do in remembrance of Him by drinking the wine as done in the last supper and repeated as a holy communion in churches all over the world.

To understand the import of this blood, one needs to understand the primordial process through which sins were forgiven as ordained in the laws of the prophets. as a matter of fact, there was NO remission of sins as written in the laws of moses. offenders were usually stoned to death or excommunicated. This was the state of things before the coming of Jesus.

how then does one explain the confidence of jews like peter and paul who were conversant with the laws of moses, that their sins were forgiven? these were people who had believed all their lives that the wages of sin is PHYSICAL death. . .only now to turn around and not only to proclaim forgiveness but the right to live till eternity.

The blood of Jesus is the MOST crucial part of the message of Jesus. In that blood is the right to overcome sin and attain pardon.

Except for the death and resurrection of Jesus including His immaculate birth the gospel of Jesus holds no uniqueness in the context of previous prophets.

c. As far as ur above analogy is concerned, the man who went into the fire took a rist out of love. but ur analogy is porous for several reasons.

# Jesus knows the beginning from the end. As such could not have gone into the fire without knowing the outcome. So if Jesus went into the fire and died in the fire, then He knew of it and as such approved of it.

# The crucifixion of Jesus was ordained from the foundation of the world.

1. while I agree that Jesus brought light into our darkness, ur understanding and definition of that light does NOT capture the light Jesus represented.

The light He brought was within the acknowledgement and worship of God, to renew hope and let us know that we have a sonship right to live at eternity if only we believe.

believing has to do with believing Jesus as the son of God, His divinity and death. why should anyone believe his words and not believe his death or resurrection?

Jesus came to save the world. . .from what? from sin. How can one live in denial of this principal purpose and then claim to love Jesus or have the love of Christ in him?

2. Jesus specifically asked that wine be drank in remembrance of Him as depicted in the last supper. This is what is done in the form of a communion in millions of churches world wide. This is not in any way a form of idolatory. . . no one is worshipping the blood. All xtians are doing is to acknowledge the sacrifice involved in the shedding of that blood.

3. Except a man be saved, except he acknowledges the salvation of Jesus as depicted on the cross. . .he is CONDEMNED regardless of his good works.

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@Noetic 15

Thank you for your response. Below is my response to some of the issues you raised in your post:

No, I did not disregard the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God. I only stated that salvation and remission of sins do not lie in his death but in the word of God that he brought to humanity. I also stated that the death of of the physical body of Jesus was murder and an outrage against the will of God. If it is the will of God that Jesus will die, why then did Jesus pray to his Father for the cup to pass away. How can Jesus who is a son of God, a part of God the Father pray that the cup should pass away if the cup (his death) is the will of God. Even on earth, Jesus is one with God the Father and knows with clinical precision what is the will of his Father. That he prayed in Gethsemani is  a clear evidence that his death is not the will of God. Jesus knew that his subsequent death is as a result of the free will of men under the influence of Lucifer, the antichrist. Jesus prayed in Gethsemani to recieve the strength from God the Father so as to pass through the gruesome physical torture and subsequent murder with equananimity and imperturbtabilty. If it is the will of God for Jesus to die, Why then did Jesus ask his Father to forgive those who orchestrated and executed his death? Do you ask for forgiveness when you do the will of God? or you ask for forgiveness when you disobey the will of God? Yes his death has spiritual implication but not they way you see it. Indeed the whole creation was outranged, that even the elements shouted in protest. When the sun darkens and the holiest of holies is torn, it is actually signs of estrangement from divinity rather than reconciliation. By your train of thought, Judas, the high priests, Caiphas and others were doing the will of God as they plotted and finally executed the physical body of the son of God. Again another crude analogy may suffice. Ones wife and kids are trapped in a burning house. The intesity of the inferno was so much that fire fighters, neigbours lacked the courage to go in for they fear that they may die in the process. As the husband looked at the inferno and the incapability of the fire fighters and neighbours, the deep love for his wife and kids silenced all fear and out of this love, the husband stepped forward to save his wife and kids even though he is aware that he may die in the process. Couragiously he moved into the burning house and succeded in saving his wife and kids from the ranging inferno. Sadly he suffered fatal burns and died shortly afterwords. It is correct to report that he entered the burning inferno out of love for his family. It is correct to report that he entered the burning house to save his family. It is correct to report that he died in the process of saving his family. It is absolutely wrong to say that he entered the burning house to die and his death is what saved his family. I hope you may be able to relate this analogy to the mission, death and resurrection of the son of God.

Jesus brought Light into the darkness of this world. He is the Light himself. Because he is a part of God the Father, he has the power to transmit both absolute Truth and and divine miracles. The word he brought is the seed that on germination purified the darkness encasing the souls and liberating them from the shacles of sin. It is the word of Jesus that does the miracle of  opening the path to God. In the word of Jesus also lies the power to thread the path leading to heaven, the kingdom of God. Flesh and blood including that of Jesus remain physical substance and cannot even rise to worlds closer to earth, much less the spiritual kingdom of God. God is not in his creations. God can only enter creation by incarnation as happened 2000 years ago in Jesus of Nazereth. After his death and subsequent resurrection, the divinity that is Jesus returned back to his Father. Thus there is no God in creation and any worship of anything in creation is idolatory. When Jesus forgived sins, he did it becuase he is God. It is God that is Jesus that forgave sins, not the pysical body of Jesus. The physical body of Jesus, that his flesh and blood are physical and it is idolatory to inwardly or outwardly expect the physical blood to wash away sins.

I will not at this moment explain the meachanism underlying prophecies. What I will say at the moment is that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to show them that LIFE survives physical death, that physical death is but a transition or birth into another world. Christ however did not ressurect in a physicl body as is wildly believed but in a transformed body.

That is your opinion. I respect it but do not agree with it. Stay blessed.

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I gave up on u from ur first post on this thread. It showed that u are completely ignorant of what the scriptures says about eternity.

is Ghandi a peace maker?

in human language YES: based on his great revolutionary work in India.

but in bible terms NOPE.

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Ghandi's understanding of God is completely different from what the bible teaches. Ghandi rejected Jesus, as such he has rejected God.

u find it impossible to conceive in the container of ur imagination that Ghandi would go to hell . . . .but thats not mmy proposition but the word of God.

Ghandi refused the gift of salvation. . .why should he then inherit eternal life?

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Noetic - In addittion to all this, you are willing to assert that the Beatitudes were lies.

I am amazed that in order to support man-made dogma, you are willing to declare that Jesus was telling lies when he mouthed the beatitudes?

Because if he was not telling lies, then -

"Blessed are the Peace Makers, for they shall be called Children of God"

Defintely qualifies Mahatma Ghandi, beyond any human being living or dead, to be called a Child of God.

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Noetic - Who's being irrational, me, or someone who declares Mahatma Ghandi damned on account of the dogma below:

A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it.

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Above, i already showed you what believing in him is all about.

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1. can u just stop being intellectually irrational. why do u keep singling out verses to suit ur own dogma?

the bible says clearly in john3:17. . . that those who dont believe are condemned. The parable of the good samaritan establishes that the love of God is founded on the worship of God, . . .what else do u want? u cannot choose and pick what message of Jesus to believe or disbelieve? how do u explain these verses?

2. u are helplessly blinded by preconceived dogmas. why do want to go to heaven without believing in Jesus? why do u have a problem acknowledging his death and salvation?

The verses u posted above are strictly for those who believe and worship God and not for every tom, dick and harry.

3. construct a meaningful argument from the bible and stop all these needless distractions.

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^^^ Man, i am thoroughly amazed at your limited reading of scripture, but more at your world view.

Its ok, i think our world-views are so drastically different that we may never convince each other.

I wonder what you think will happen to children or adolescents in this regard.

How can you fail to see how your dogma would sound to a person of a different culture.

A man lived in Israel. He is the Son of God (i suppose the rest of us are sons of the devil). The man, aside from being the Son of God, is also God. The man was murdered. Without this murder, you cannot be saved. Particularly, you must believe that this murder was for your sins, otherwise you are damned, since we have now told you about it.

Gosh.

I just cant believe how any rational person could believe this in the first place.

And worse still, believe that if others do not accept it as he has, then such others are damned, regardless of the purity of their hearts, the goodness of their ways, the humilty of their minds, or the peace and love they giv ethe world.

Let me ask you how belief in a fact, would validate or invalidate that fact? How belief in a fact, would change the state of a pure or evil soul. A good man who disbelieves it does not cease to be good, any more than an evil man who believes it will cease to be evil. I am surprised the essence of M_Nwankwo's example of the Child - Professor is lost on you. Cant you see that one can already be something without recognising it? Did we not give you the verse where Jesus said he would welcome people to his kingdom who did not even know that they were serving him?

How can you say these things Noetic? Dont you realise how awfully narrow-minded you are beginning to sound? ? ?

Go and read the beatitudes again.  -

Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,

for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,

for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,

for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,

for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven

Look at the highlighted parts again. What do they tell you Noetic?

Where does it say here that one needs to know or even believe in any death? And this was his most succinct and in-depth statement on salvation.

Gosh, Noetic - CANT YOU SEE IT? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

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@ m_nwankwo . . . .thanks for ur reply, . . .this is my fourth attempt to post this . . .my connection is acting funny.

The truth Jesus brought to the world is not subject to the unbiblical analyses u have stated. And I find it disturbing that I have to respond to such. Honestly ur claims are very ambiguous.

a. The truth of Christ is the establishment of the kingdom of God. The link to that kingdom is Jesus Christ, His salvation and divinity. I do not know of any biblical injunction that allows that the death of Jesus be seperated from his message. Recognising Jesus as the Son of God is a personal choice and just like the acknowledgement of His death and salvation. The death of Jesus is a spiritual event that took place from the foundation of the world as the remedy for the sins and disconnect of man. To disregard or dismiss the death on the cross is an attempt to look at the death from a mere physical angle. The death on the cross dennoted several spiritual dimensions and events namely:

# the tearing of the holiest of the holiest of the temple. . . . thus allowing that abode of God became in humans and not in temple.

# the ressurection of the dead to eternity.

# the manifestation of the holy spirit to man. prior to that it has been the exclusive preserve of a select few.

# the radical redirection of the religious practices of that age.

It is pertinent to understand that the death and ressurection of Jesus lend credence to several events as we see of it today. Its spiritual significance is better illustrated in the sonship one enjoys with God today. If one does not have to believe in the death and ressurection of Jesus. . how then does one become a Child of God? how then does one get the holy spirit? how does one get to fellowship with God, since He no longer resides in man made temples?

The message of Jesus did NOT connect ur to God. . . . . twas His death and ressurection that did. By believing He died and was raised, we receive the power to become God's sons, by using this power (holy spirit) we become God's sons and inherit eternity. how then can u become a child of God without believing the death and resurrection of Christ.

b. contrary to ur assertion. . .Jesus came to the earth to die for our sins and He made that very very clear. He foretold His death and also affirmed that whatsoever is asked in his name (after He has resurrected), according to the will of God will be granted. how then can anyone dismiss this singular event of His death and ressurection?

The xtian hope is largely centred around the victory over death. . . . .the core message of the gospel has been about his resurrection.

This singular event gave the likes of peter and other disciples the faith and courage to preach the gospel at the expense of their lives. . .how then can u seprate this from Christ's message? . . . . .Salvation lies in the death of Jesus.

c. ur understanding of "LOVE" has no place with the bible, Jesus or God.

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'say 'GOD is one, the self sufficient, He beget not nor was He begotten, and there is none co equal or comparable to Him' Quran 112 : 1-4

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And verily I tell you that mohammed and Allah are liars. . . .

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'verily, it is of their falsehood that they say God has begotten ? And verily they are liars' Quran 37:151-152

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Hi Noetic 15. Thanks for your response to my post. Below is a brief response to some of the issues you raised:

1. What I said may not be reconciled with your own view of what the gospel of Jesus Christ is. I have not stated that my posts are in sync with your view of the gospel of Jesus Christ. On the contrary my posts show that the gospel of Jesus Christ as I know it is different from yours. The mission of Jesus, the son of God lies in bringing the Truth, the will of God the Father to humankind. Humankind rejected Jesus and the word of God that he brought and sealed their enmity by murdering his physical body. I do not believe that the Almighty God require the blood of his son to save his creatures. Jesus was killed because humanity opposed the will of God and became willing tools in the hand of the darkness. Jesus did not come to die but to bring the eternal Truth to humankind. His death is a dastardly murder, a sacrilege committed against God. Salvation does not lie in the death of Jesus but on the word of Truth that Jesus brought. How can blood shed by murder bring humankind closer to God? Jesus is divine but his physical body is just like the body of any other man. How then can a physical blood bring spiritual redemption and salvation? Is there physical flesh and blood in heaven? I am certain that the blood of Jesus did not atone for any of our guilt but rather burdened us with a sacrilege which many can only recognize when they drop this physical body. Jesus was murdered because the Truth of God which he brought became a danger to priests and their religion. They thus conspired to eliminate the him. After committing this heinous crime, they declared that it is better that one man should die for the sins of others, and that became the foundation for the believe in sacrificial death of Jesus, the son of God. Jesus did not sin and it is not possible for him to directly take on the sins of others. He can only give them the word of God as well as mediate the power to those who are willing to live according to the word of God. I have in several threads given detailed explanations on what I am convinced is the mission and work of the redeemer, Jesus-the son of God. I will not repeat them here.

2. Genuine love is the same love that Jesus preached and lived. I clearly stated in my first post that this genuine love emanates from Jesus. I equally stated that the recognition of Jesus as the son of God is among the highest recognition permitted a creature and this recognition will come to anyone who lives according to genuine love. Spiritual evolution is in steps just like our earthly schools. A crude analogy may suffice. Imagine a person who has a deep longing to become a Professor of Molecular Biology. As a primary school kid he does not know what molecular biology or professor is all about but is very much fascinated by animals, insects and numbers. While other kids are playing pranks, he is busy trying to find out why a planted seed grows, why  their are patterns on  butterfly wings etc. This fascination with nature and how it works in reciprocity programs his brain to understand biological structures. In his first biology class in high school, he was so fascinated as he piped through a section of a living cell in a light microscope. He was so overwhelmed by this experience  that he does not want to let go off the microscope until the instructor forcibly removed him from pipping into the magic class. It was not surprising that in high school, he graduated with top grades in mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. At this point he is beginning to have a faint idea of what molecular biology is but lacks understanding of what it means to be  a Professor. But unknown to him, his fascination with nature and biology have sown the seed that will germinate and in 25 years time will ripen as a professor of Molecular Biology. A superficial observer will not be able to see the professor in the kid when he was in high school, undergrad or even in his graduate school. But a deeper look will show that the seed was sown as the child gallivanted about trying to fathom how a maggot turns to a housefly. Meanwhile another kid have no interest in biology or nature but is the son of a professor of molecular biology. Because he regularly hears about DNA, sequencing, cloning, PCR etc from his dad, he soon imagines that he is a molecular biologist. But you do not become a molecular biologist by being the son of one but you become one by acquiring the requisite skills and training. What takes a decade or more post first degree with respect to this crude analogy may take few earthly years to millions of earthly years for the spiritual recognition of Jesus as the redeemer and son of God. If you sow yam, you reap yam and it does not matter if you call yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, an Agnostic, a deist etc. The obedience to the will of God lies in the sowing of the yam and not on the toga of religion. Love is love whether from a christian or a buddhist. Lies are lies whether it is from an agnostic or deist. The eternal law of God has intrinsically made yam to be yam. Thus if you want to rip corn, then sow corn but you will be wasting your time if you want corn and sow yam. You can gather all the prayer warriors on earth to change the yam to corn and it will not change. It is a mockery of divine justice to say that genuine love sown by those whose religious persuasions are different from us is not the true love that Jesus brought.

3. Genuine love is the spiritual lever, the guide that leads to God and Jesus and as long as one opens his heart to this genuine love, he or she will sooner or later come to the recognition of God and his son Jesus Christ either in this world or beyond this world. Stay blessed.

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Let me personalise it.

A. Do u (kunle) believe that Jesus died and rose?

B. Do u (kunle) believe that (A) is the basis and centre of Jesus mission on earth?

C. Do u (kunle) believe that without believing in event (A), one can make heaven?

D. Do u (kunle) believe in the salvation of Jesus?

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Here's the Poster-Boy for my argument. . . my hero, Mahatma Ghandi. . .

Please digest this before we proceed further, and try to understand the enormity of the suggestion that a braggart like Davidlylan who insults everybody at the slightest criticism will make it to "Jesus' heaven" before this great guy. . .

Mahatma Gandhi

Hinduism at its best

Mohandas Gandhi, (1869 – 1948) was a major political and spiritual leader of India and its independence movment. He was a pioneer of non-violent, civil disobedience, a tactic and philosophy that figured in many of the human rights movements of the 20th century. Gandhi was commonly known as Mahatma Gandhi, a title derived from the Sanskrit for "Great Soul." In some respects, Gandhi not only represents the best elements of Hinduism, he also was interested in the reform of this and other world religions, which he acknowledged, sometimes are applied and interpreted in ways that keep the poor and oppressed peoples of the planet in a permanent state of powerlessness.

Gandhi first employed his ideas of civil disobedience in the Indian struggle for civil rights in South Africa. Upon his return to India, he helped lead poor farmers and labourers to protest oppressive taxation and widespread discrimination. Leading the Indian National Congress, Gandhi worked for the alleviation of poverty, the liberation of women, and an end to the caste system.

Gandhi remained committed to non-violence even in the most extreme situations. He was a student of Hindu philosophy and lived simply, organizing an ashram that was self-sufficient in its needs. He made his own clothes and lived on a simple vegetarian diet. He used rigorous fasts for self-purification as well as a means of protest. One of his foremost concerns was improving that status of India's lower classes, drawing the poor and the marginalized into the freedom struggle. Gandhi's teachings have inspired civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in the US and Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

Famous Gandhi quotations:

Religion - a Matter of the Heart: "True religion is not a narrow dogma. It is not external observance. It is faith in God and living in the presence of God. It means faith in a future life, in truth and Ahimsa…. Religion is a matter of the heart. No physical inconvenience can warrant abandonment of one's own religion."

Hinduism: "I call myself a Sanatani Hindu, because I believe in the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, and all that goes by the name of Hindu scripture, and therefore in avataras and rebirth; I believe in the varnashrama dharma in a sense, in my opinion strictly Vedic but not in its presently popular crude sense; I believe in the protection of cow … I do not disbelieve in murti puja." (Young India: June 10, 1921)

The Gita: "Hinduism as I know it entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being … When doubts haunt me, when disappointments stare me in the face, and when I see not one ray of light on the horizon, I turn to the Bhagavad Gita, and find a verse to comfort me; and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming sorrow.

My life has been full of tragedies and if they have not left any visible and indelible effect on me, I owe it to the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita." (Young India: June 8, 1925)

Seeking God: "I worship God as Truth only. I have not yet found Him, but I am seeking after Him. I am prepared to sacrifice the things dearest to me in pursuit of this quest. Even if the sacrifice demanded my very life, I hope I may be prepared to give it.

The Future of Religions: No religion which is narrow and which cannot satisfy the test of reason, will survive the coming reconstruction of society in which the values will have changed and character, not possession of wealth, title or birth will be the test of merit.

Faith in God: "Everyone has faith in God though everyone does not know it. For everyone has faith in himself and that multiplied to the nth degree is God. The sum total of all that lives is God. We may not be God, but we are of God, even as a little drop of water is of the ocean."

God is Strength: "Who am I? I have no strength save what God gives me. I have no authority over my countrymen save the pure moral. If He holds me to be a pure instrument for the spread of non-violence in place of the awful violence now ruling the earth, He will give me the strength and show me the way. My greatest weapon is mute prayer. The cause of peace is therefore, in God's good hands."

Christ: "I regard Jesus as a great teacher of humanity, but I do not regard him as the only begotten son of God. That epithet in its material interpretation is quite unacceptable. Metaphorically we are all sons of God, but for each of us there may be different sons of God in a special sense. Thus for me Chaitanya may be the only begotten son of God … God cannot be the exclusive Father and I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus." (Harijan: June 3, 1937)

Conversion: "I believe that there is no such thing as conversion from one faith to another in the accepted sense of the word. It is a highly personal matter for the individual and his God. I may not have any design upon my neighbour as to his faith, which I must honour even as I honour my own. Having reverently studied the scriptures of the world I could no more think of asking a Christian or a Musalman, or a Parsi or a Jew to change his faith than I would think of changing my own." (Harijan: September 9, 1935)

All Religions are True: "I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian." (Young India: January 19, 1928) [/color]

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No need to duplicate threads - there is already one in existence, and only four posts so far, so we can hijack the thread. . .

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-338352.0.html

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Please i have never done this. . .

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@Deep Sight

I want to know exactly why you choose the Jewish/Christian god as evidence for your nameless god. . . .

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Accordingly Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Elijah, Elisha as well as all the apostles who wrote that Jesus was inferior to the Father . . .

All do not love God! Great, i am getting used to you and enjoying your delightful lines of reasoning!

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open a new thread. . . . I will gladly educate u there.

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I will give you $1 Million of my own money if you can point out a single verse in the Bible where Jesus himself stated that he was God.

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