«Home

Do The Dead In Christ Go To Heaven Or Await Ressurrection?

Many self-proffessing christians readily claim that once a person dies in the Lord, he readily goes to heaven, yet they still believe in ressurection of the dead. some say both happens, but how can that be?

assuming one dies and goes to heaven, what will be ressurected since the person is already in heaven?

no doubt this is one of the most controversial subjects facing christiandom today.

No where in the old testament was the reward of obidience to God--- a place in Heaven. Jesus even clarified this in John 3vs13 "no one has ascended into heaven but He who came down from it", john 11vs25 "I am the ressurection and life, he who believes in me, though he may die, but he shall live". yet he made refrences to the kingdom of heaven in his numerous parables. God is definitely not the author of confusion, but if Jesus said this, where then is David, abraham, elijah, enoch, Moses and other prophets of old including the apostles of Christ?.

Job pondered in job14vs14, " if a man dies, shall he live again?", he answers himself in verses 14 and 15.

revelation20 gives a vivid account of a ressurrection and that Christ will reign on planet earth for a thousand years, with the saved.

yet our pastors and preachers teach of a reign in heaven.

sincerely, what do you think, do the dead in Christ go to heaven or await ressurection?

Avatar
Newbie
45 answers

The Answer to this question lies in the book of revelations, where it explains about the second heaven and the day of judgement. It points out that there will be a new heaven and hell. This is where the contradiction comes from because we miss this when reading gods word. The bible also shows us that the first heaven is like being asleep, in the silence of the grave or resting at peace, so after the second coming of christ we are awoken and resurrected to be judged for our acts, which gives us our seat in the second heaven.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Na wa o! Simple question to big big grammar and explanations! I sha know that when we die, we will be with our Creator-GOD.

0
Avatar
Newbie

We need to look at NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES. It is a very interesting topic.

It documents the experience of those that were (almost) pronounced dead but bounced back to life.

Click here for more info:> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ OGA TAYO-D

SCRIPTURE WITHOUT REFERENCE FOR ONE OF YOUR STUDENT, BESIDES THAT ONE NO DEY INSIGHTFUL ENOUGH ABI NO BE YOU TALK SAY MAKE PERSON COLLATE. ABEG FIRE ON BETA FOR US TO CLEARLY UNDERSTAND.

0
Avatar
Newbie

My understanding, is that no man, prior to the death of Jesus Christ ever ascended into Heaven because the Blood of Jesus Christ had not yet been paid. After His death on the Cross a miracle occured. The Holy Bible in Matthew 27: 52-53 says

27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

(http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/27.html)

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

I don't like to give a literal interpretation of the Holy Bible, because I am a learner also.

0
Avatar
Newbie

DEATH is a transition.

when a man dies(sleep) so to say, d spirit goes back 2 d owner-GOD. he gave it 2 you and receive it back. that ends it d issue of d spirit , it has 2 go back because d DEAD cannot praise or worship GOD.

what matter most is d state of d SOUL AND D BODY.

when a christian dies, d mortal body remains in d grave.

d soul, which is immortal is PRESERVE in a "temporal resting place called abraham bosom.it is a resting potential. better called PARADISE.

no body goes 2 heaven or hell fire UNTIL D GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT- final seperation.

a christian who die now will b securely kept in a peaceful , restful abode so as not 2 see CORRUPTION waiting for the RESSURRECTION OF D BODY.

when d trumpet sounds, the dead IN CHRIST will 1st RISE ( FIRST RESSURRECTION) and meet christ in d AIR , D rest saints will then be caught up 2 meet christ as well.( it is called RAPTURE)

series of events will take place in d air and on earth - ( d study is called " escatology')

so during d first ressurrection d soul takes on its REFINED, INCORRUPTIBLE BODY. d same body with which it lays inside d grave, but a renewed, refined , sinless, spotless body. dis is pattern according 2 christ's ressurrection.

2 shortened d whole thing, it is d saved SOUL in an INCORRUPTIBLE BODY that will give ACCOUNT OF WHAT HE HAD DONE IN D BODY ACCORDING 2 THAT HE HAD DONE. d soul will be CONSCIOUSLLY PRESENT. note that word CONSCIOUSLLY PRESENT!

after series of events, both d good and d bad, righteous n unrighteous, d just n d unjust finally meet at d GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT for the final separation. each will now go back 2 its own DESTINATION either heaven or hell fire, not hell.

even d so called believers will not forever stay in heaven, they are STILL COMING BACK 2 THE EARTH, BUT A NEW EARTH COMING DOWN FROM D THRONE OF GOD. this is a REPLCAL OF D FIRST SINLESS GARDEN OF EDEN!

d soul lives on in a renewed, refined, incorruptible body and in a new earth, having a new heaven.

this is a summary, it is a comprehensive issue. which is more explicit when u take a course in ESCATOLOGY. u can can reach me on 08072705904, sikaz4u@yahoo.com

0
Avatar
Newbie

lazarus parable. did the apostles preach this (abrahams bossom) after the demise of Christ?

please refer me to the bible verse that states we go staraight to heaven ever since Jesus died?

after reading your contribution to the thread did God create hell fire? (through the link u provided)

I was suprised your position on hades/hell was unchallenged. hades is d place of the dead, righteous or unrighteous awaiting judgement.

it is interpreted in english to mean hell. but hell on its own exists as we all know it.

but wait this your other claim was really funny.

"by" giving gifts to men

and u are also claiming that Jesus ascended with other people. I don't c this in the bible.

in hebrews11:40, the bible does not imply what u are saying. read verse 35, u will understand that death is believed to be the end and then ressurection is awaited.

verse39 says they are still awaiting the promise God made to them (eternal life), even though Christ has risen. verse40 now says that better things have been made for those awaiting this promises, that without them(those awaiting d promise) things should not be perfect. that leads to the venue or essence of eternal life.

to be cont`d

0
Avatar
Newbie

its given to man to die once, after death comes judgement./

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

I will oblige you and meet up in the other thread. I am glad we are moving forward with this. And may I commend your gentlemaness in the face of contradictory views.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@Bobbyaf,

If you'd like to argue with the passage, then we'll provide you with more evidence.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ Rockiedink and Noetic

I asked Pilgrim to respond to my question as to what happens to the spirit of the wicked when he/she dies. She's clueless. Like Rockiedink says the bible is its own interpreter. Instead of extrapolating we need to simply accept what it says. If it says the dead are asleep then lets accept that.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

I have stated before that this is not a parable but a lesson of history. Here are some reasons why I hold to this belief:

1. Jesus never mentions a name in his parables. He almost always starts his parables with the statement: the KOG is like ,

2. Jesus used the word "certain" in describing the rich man and Lazarus. This is a definite article that indicates he had particular people in mind. See verses 19 There was a certain rich man; 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,. Jesus was essentially saying there was a particular rich man and there was a particular beggar.

3. In starting this parable, Jesus began by with the phrase: "There was", which shows He was talking about an event that took place.

Until u answer the questions I asked u about the spirit, I disagree with this statement.[/b]I believe I have provided you with answers earlier.

1 Cor 15:35-50 35 But some man will say, [b]How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. I hope that answers your question. What happened to jesus body after the resurrection is what will happen to our bodies. it will no longer be a natural body but a spiritual one. But the fact remains that it is the same body that will be raised as we see in Jesus.

As to how they were recognised, it is very possible that Jesus told them or they perceived it in the spirit. The biblical account account mentioned that what they first saw was Jesus and two men standing by His side. It was only when the men were gone that the disciples said anything. besides, Luke confirmed in his accout that the men were Abraham and elia before the disciples even woke up to witness the transfiguration.

1 Cor 9:27 -But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, [b][/b]I myself should be a castaway. Paul clearly differentiated between the spirit and the body there.

Eccl. 12 v 7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. this clearly indicates that death brings about a separation between the body and the spirit.

0
Avatar
Newbie

noetic,

2 Cor 4:4 lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. God's likeness is spirit, which is why we are told in John 4:24 - God is a Spirit. Man created in God's likeness must therefore be spirit.

Hebrews 10:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, Please explain away the phrase in bold. I don't believe I need to prove that their bodies are still in the grave.

To make things clearer, you need to understand that dead saints were usually taken to Abraham's Bossom before Christ. After Christ's ascension we all go to heaven. I have explained this several times on nairaland. Please check out the following if you are interested - http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-8687.32.html#msg346855

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-42512.64.html#msg954861

Hebrews 11:40 - God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. When Christ arose and brought them justification, their spirits were perfected and they were raised with Him to heaven. It is the spirits of these men that the people of Jerusalem saw - Matthew 27;52-53. Hebrews 10:22 -23 that I quoted above tells us that the spirits of these just men that have been perfected are now in heaven.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

(a) They could not have been in the GRAVE:

~ the grave is not the same place as the ALTAR:

"I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God"

(b) They could not have been on EARTH:

~ that is why they cried about those on earth:

"avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth"

If these people were in the graves, could you please kindly establih WHERE it says so?

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

I don't want to respond to you since you obviously didn't consider it important to respond to my direct take on the thread.

However, don't allude statements to me that i didnt say. I NEVER said the spirit of man has feelings. It might seem trivial but it isn't.

Beyond that, I think I've established the case (at least in my most recent posts) for WHY an understanding of man's makeup is crucial to understanding man's destination. Your assumption that I've not addressed that necessity is NOT because I didn't but becuase your position is different than mine. In other words, because you hold to the position that man lies in the grave, you do not think it is important to understand man's make up. I've shown that that isn't the case.

The word play on 'distinct' isn't such a big issue IMO. I'll just give a very concise summary. The spirit doesn't have to be doing another thing from the body at the same time in order for the spirit to be distinct from it. Jesus told the apostles: "the spirit is willing BUT the flesh is weak". It is a given that the spirit, for physical things, has to act through the body. The "BUT" in Jesus' statement shows that the physical limitation poses a problem for the spirit. That is why the whole point of the life of the christian, to be spirit-controlled or spirit-led and NOT to be led by the flesh. Paul shows us this clear dichotomy both in Romans and Galatians, and that dichotomy (of flesh - actually, the sinful nature of the soul - and spirit) is only resolved by exercising the will to "yeild one's members" or one's body to the leading or control of the Spirit of God in our spirits. Paul said "I beat my body, making it my slave"

Also, I still don't understand YOUR position on 'spirit' and you have not addressed it in the appropriate thread neither. Perhaps if TayoD reads your reply to me he'd be able to make some inferences that I couldn't make.

I'll stop there for now. Cheers.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@all

this people described here (below), where are they?

Rev. 6:9-10 - "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? "?

I thought u said they were in heaven?

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

Like I said, a very brief response to your original post. There are too many things in there for me to talk in any detail.

Unfortunately, there is so much stuff here for me to go into.

First, the REWARD is different from the DESTINATION. Heaven has never been the reward. All christians go to the same place but have different rewards.

No one has ascended to heaven 'to bring Christ down'. See Rom 10. Secondly, that statement was made a while ago.

Those prophets were in Hades albeit a part of hades where they were comforted rather than tormented. I believe they are now with the Lord.

Those are my opinions on the subject. I could be wrong and would gladly love to hear your views.

Cheers.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

2 Tim 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

In summary, death is a separation. And according to Paul in 1 Thess 5:23, the spirit, soul and body are distinct and there is a separation between these at death.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@Oluchia: My sister, you won. Your advise is taken to heart. thank you.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@olabowale,

Again, for the sake of not inviting what you won't be able to handle, may I request that you desist from referring in derogatory terms to the convictions of other people?

I have clearly and briefly answered this allegation of the Muslim mindset on accusing the Bible as having been tampered with - and I offered pointers to shawn123 in another thread that there are different Qur'ans all saying different things ("In it are textual variations from the standard Qur'an that is presently read throughout the world" - Wikipedia). This is not the thread to discuss your misgivings, olabowale; and if you would like to enter into that debate on a corrupt and watered-down Qur'an, please oblige us and open a thread for that so that your vexations can be put to rest once and for all.

It's no use trying to incessantly attack the Bible and Christians if you're so unsatisfied with the false claims of Muhammad in the Qur'an. Once again, I caution you to apply common sense and respect to non-Muslim convictions, and refrain from your continuous derision.

And just as well you have inadvertently dressed up your wrong notions fancifully and demonstrated yourself to be the very unbeliever that you allege against others. We have asked you to apply your own litmus tests and observations in several instances where you mixed up your own ideas - and typically, you vamoosed from those threads without addressing your misconceptions. Two examples:

(a) when you floated the thread out of your over-reaction from the YIM chats we had last week, it was left there for that long as a public specimen of your mindset. But the moment pilgrim.1 responded by sharing about the outcome of your actions behind the scenes, the thread vanished promptly!

(b) you are yet to apply your "litmus test and observation" to your own idea that "in heaven there are Paradise and Hellfire"; and that idea was queried several times (see it by clicking here, here and here). Where have you addressed that misconception, olabowale?

If you don't have a handle on your own misconceptions, what do you hope to achieve from your vexations against what you have no clues about?

Cheers.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I love your reasoning and I think this mature and logical reasoning give room for learning.

Man comprises of Body (Flesh), Spirit(Breath of Life) and soul(Mind or reasoning). Now i explain each briefly:

Body of man is different from that of animal in the sense that God created it with His hand and Specially made in His own Image. By the power of God like animals and other things made, they were not created lifeless (Without any breath) so I beleive is Man. So the "Breath of life" is what make the difference because that special breath is only in Man and it worked with the Soul of man. the bible says ", and man became a living Soul"

Spirit (Breath of life infar from the above is that force (Unseen) that make the soul to function differently from animal.

About the Soul, we can see that Man reason differently from animals they are both breathing. Just because animals do not have breath of life in them and so they are not a living Soul. Please also not that Man could be dead while still alive. "That is why we pray that God do not let us be alive as if we are not. When you say people lost sense of reasoning they seize to be called a living soul.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@Bobbyaf: Yardee, may disagree with you as to the definition of Soul, and the definition of Spirit, but I have to commend you for your boldness. You argue sensibly. Unfortunately, you are using the wrong material source. Of course, it is the only one you know. Mind you, it is an already diluted, weak product of the Pure Original.

But when the living spirit dies (the man who was alive is now dead), it seems as from Bobbyaf that the SPIRIT is separated from the Body. Therefore there is a dead soul (Soul dies, according to Bobbyaf, from his material source; the Protestant Bible. Probably KJV!), and what remains is lifeless Body!

See how weak or turnover its head the Trinity argument is when a Spiritually uneducated person is paralleling it with what man is made of. Living soul means body and spirit. It could also mean living body with a spirit or spirit alive in a body or living spirit. Is there any possibility here that I could be wrong?

Whats so interesting though, is that there is a part of this dead man that is still alive. But that living part can not function, unless it is fused with the body! So apply the same to dead Jesus, 1/3 god. It means that the 2/3 god remaining could not do anything and function as god! If through all of the time that the Christians claimed that Jesus was dead, there was a God fully functioning as God, then Jesus must not have been important to this God's ability and capability to fully function. Hence, I submit to you the enlightened people of Nairaland and to the world at large, that just because the Christians call or say Jesus is part of god; 1/3 god, son of god, does not mean it is so and that that it is absolutely true. From the above, we see that the role of Jesus in the Power capability of God to be God is Zero and unimportant, whether Jesus is alive or dead!

Those who are adovating 'acceptence by faith,' without any litmus test and observation, inference and hard fact conclusion are truly believers of anything, as long as it is dressed up fancifully! They are truly disbelievers of true faith therefore!

0
Avatar
Newbie

@poster

We accept issues like this by faith. Only the dead knows for sure. Wait till you die to find out because until then you will never know.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Bobbyaf, your response is entirely conjectural and lacks essential Biblical evidence.

Yes he did, and so did the apostles in their writings. However, we must balance the word of God properly. It is improper to impute your own meaning to this euphemism (i.e. that 'sleep' in this context means absolute unconsciousness), when other Scriptural evidence clearly shows that dead saints  are clearly consciously with God. This evidence has been diligently provided by ricadelide, Tayo-D, and others. Now let's deal with the little evidence I brought up.

8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name."

9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?"

10 Saul swore to her by the LORD, "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this."

11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"

      "Bring up Samuel," he said.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"

13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"

      The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground."

14 "What does he look like?" he asked.

      "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.

      Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.

15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

      "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines."

20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and night.

The Bible writer clearly states that Samuel was brought up. We are told that the woman saw Samuel, and that she was surprised! Why would she be surprised, and how did she realise that her client was actually King Saul, if this was just like all her other episodes of necromancy? We are also told that Saul KNEW (as opposed to 'thought') that it was Samuel. It was Samuel, IMHO. Now this interpretation is rejected by many on the basis of discomfort with the non-Biblical practice of necromancy, and I can understand this to an extent. However, soch problems do not exist with the Transfiguration of Jesus, to which you said:

Your repeated quotes from Ecclesiastes deserve notice, and perhaps I can already imagine ricadelide's opinions about these quotations; however, as a precursor to that, I will post the wider context of your earlier quotation from Ecclesiastes 9, which should hopefully reveal one of the problems with your exegesis of this verses.

1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad,the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.

As it is with the good man,

so with the sinner;

as it is with those who take oaths,

so with those who are afraid to take them.

3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Questions:

[list]

[li]Verse 1: Are the righteous truly unsure of what awaits them, whether love or hate?[/li]

[li]Verse 6: Do the dead really have no further reward, esp. the dead in Christ?[/li]

[li]Verses 7-10: Is this really the proper attitude for a Christian in his approach to life?[/li]

[/list]

These questions should highlight the problem with unrestrained and unqualified doctrination of the book of Ecclesiastes. The same can be demonstrated with your quotations from the Psalms, in fact.

Finally, take note of Jesus' comments concerning the ressurection in Luke 20:37,38:

37But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

Enough said.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ Longman83

There is actually no confusion at all. The spirit means "breath of life"

Jesus calls death a sleep. (See John 11)

Well, in actual fact king Saul communicated with a "familiar spirit" or one of Satan's demons pretending to be Samuel. Today people practise chanelling, or using a medium to reach their supposedly loved ones who are alive in the spirit world. This kind of practice was forbidden by God. God knew that Satan was only decieving people into believing that when a person dies they are not really dead. Recall that satan once led Eve to believe the same thing when he told her she would not surely die if she ate the forbidden fruit.

Thats why I am wary of such arguments about people going to heaven after death. The spirit that goes back to God in heaven is not conscious or aware of what is going on, since it only the breath of life and nothing more.

Simple. Moses was resurrected. How else do you explain his conversation with Christ.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@Bobbyaf,

I actually saw your responses and read through each one before asking you my simple questions. Apparently, it is obvious that you have already favoured the FACT that man's spirit (the man himself) goes to HEAVEN when he is dead. HOW?

Obviously, God is not in the grave - and if the spirit (which "departs" from the body) "goes back to God from whence it came", you cannot be assuming that God lives in the grave where the spirit "goes back" to!

This is how simply the whole discussion is - but typically, you are ignoring even the FACT that you stated and proffering other arguments to contradict your premise.

This is one of the reasons why I have only been concise all this while in my responses.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Big  kudos to Ricadelide for the neat job done.I still have some few things to add. We should not forget the promise of life Christ offered the robber while awaiting  physical death on the cross.

                               "And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise (heaven)", Luke 23:43.

                                "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:, "

Jesus actually went to heaven in the spirit the day He died; so also the robber. Many Scholars have reasoned that Christ was only promising the robber eternal life in  the distant future. However, Jesus said "To day" not in the future. Some, in an attempt to cover their error with the glit of doctrinal bigotry, have assumed that the word "To day" is not referring to the very day Christ died simply because it is not written as "today". We must understand that this is not the only place in the canon of the sacred Scriptures where the word today is written as To day. Heb 3:7-15 declares

                             "Wherefore as the holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, ;While it is said,To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts,as in the provocation.",

Luke 16:20-31 also supports the fact that the saints of the Lord immediately enter into His rest after death. Some Theologians have ,however, thought and taught that Christ was only speaking in parables and that the event narrated here isi not a real story, and as such should not be taken hook, line and sinker. I want to say that this is not a parable but a real series of fact that must be given serious considerations. Jesus, in all His spoken parables, never mentioned the names of the characters involved but in this, He mentioned the name of Lazarus and father Abraham. This shows that this is a real story and not a parable. Additionally, the fact that Abraham was mentioned also lends credence to what Christ told the ignorant Sadducees in Mark 12:26-27

Apart from these, Jesus took Peter, James and John ( the inner circle) to a mountain for a night vigil. " And there appeared unto them Elias ( Elijah) with Moses: and they were  talking with Jesus, Mark 9:4". The fact that Elijah and Moses appeared even in glory and talked with full consciousness to Jesus renders the theory ,that Saints are locked up in the grave while awaiting resurrection, invalid and unacceptable. We know from the Scriptures that Moses died and was buried by God (Deut 34:5-6). If the whole personality (soul,spirit and body) of Moses is in the grave, according to the "Theory of Noeticism", how could he have risen from the grave and appeared and talked with Jesus when the resurrection morning has not come? This "Noetic proposition" also states that Elijah did not go heaven and that he probably died at some unspecified time. Let me pretend to agree with this assertion at least for the sake of argument. If Elijah died and was buried, how would he (from the grave) have appeared on the mount of transfiguration. This shows that the Noetic postulation is full of self contradictions. Permit me to ask the following questions. Where are Elijah and Moses now? Are they resting in Glory with the Lord? Are they hanging and gambolling somewhere around the moon and other planetary bodies? Do they have disembodied spirits? Are their spirits clothe or covered with  temporal spiritual bodies while awaiting the final resurrection, with full spiritual bodies? Please help me to proffer solutions and logical answers to these questions.

The Saints will not be rewarded at this time of resting with the Lord for they have just ceased from their earthly labour. ", Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them", Rev14:13. However, they will be rewarded at the resurrection of the just (the Rapture), Luke 14:14.

In addition to the aforementioned, contemporary testimonies also attest to the fact that the Saints go to meet with the Lord at death. A man of God,Pastor Daniel, narrated his experience at the brink of eternity in Evangelist Bonke's crusade in Nigeria. I listened to the testimony myself. My lovely sister, who is a fervent Christain, also had similar experience at her sick bed. She came back to life only by the prayer of the Saints around. She told me all that she saw. Let us therefore leave theology aside and prepare to meet the Lord.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

ricadelide has eloquently expressed. He expresses my thoughts vey clearly and articlately. If this was a personality contest, then I'll feel the need to chip in and make this all about verbosity. But since it is about issues that others have adequately addressed, then I can only add if and when necessary.

ricadelide has done well to present his case line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here and a little there.

Like I told you before, to avoid any mix-ups, it is good to make your points very clear. What are the issues? Are you saying there is no conciousness in the grave? What do you consider the destination of the dead? What are your views about resurrection? Highlight each point and let's take it up from there.

I believe ricadelide has started at the very basic by discussing the make up of man. Are you in agreement with what he wrote or not. Understanding man's make up is one of the vital keys to dealing with this topic.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Not surprisingly, I sense a great deal of semantic confusion here, esp. over the word 'spirit'.

Let's leave that for now. Noetic, Bobbyaf et al, if I understand your position properly, you are saying that there is no consciousness in the grave. If that is the case then,

[list]

[li] How do you explain the conversation between Saul and the spirit of a dead Samuel in 1 Samuel 28?[/li]

[li] How do you explain the appearance of a long-dead Moses talking with Jesus in his Transfiguration(Matthew 17:3, Mark 9:4, Luke 9:30,31?[/li]

[li][/li]

[/list]

0
Avatar
Newbie

Now, coming to the spirit, the spirit is NOT mere breath as I’ve endeavored to show you previously. I’ll do so more explicitly now.

Gen. 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Like you said, God breathed into man’s nostrils and he became “a living soul”. Understanding the parts of the whole man from 1Thess.5:23, we can draw a parallel with the creation account. The body is that which was formed out of the dust of the ground, the spirit is that which was formed out of the breath of the Almighty (see Zech. 12:1b). These are the two independent entities. That which was produced in the man as a result of contact of the spirit WITH the body, and which became the coordinating seat or meeting point of the two is the soul. It is the self-aware part of man or the seat of individuality and personality and that is why men are called 'souls' and Adam, a 'living soul'.

Now, the attributes of the spirit that was so formed in the man can be gleaned from other sources. I’ll show you things that the spirit can do, and hope that you’d realize that you’re mistaken, as a mere breath or life principle cannot possess such attributes. There are so many scriptures, but I do hope these few would do.

1Cor. 2:11

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

The spirit is capable of knowledge, a mere breath cannot ‘know’.

Acts 17:16

Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was being provoked within him as he was observing the city full of idols.

The spirit is capable of being provoked.

Luke 1:47

And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

The spirit of man is capable of rejoicing

1Cor 14:15-16

What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless in the spirit only, how will the one who fills the place of the ungifted say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not know what you are saying?

This draws a contrast between praying with the mind and praying with the spirit. The spirit is NOT the mind. Yet, the spirit is capable of knowledge. You can’t sing with or pray with a mere breath. And NO, this verse is not referring to the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:16

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.

Here we see a mention of the Holy Spirit AND the spirit of man and we see that they are in contact. Here we realize that the testifying or witnessing of the Spirit of God to/in us is actually to our spirits. This can be understood more accurately in the light of this verse:

Prov. 20: 27

The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, searching all the innermost parts of his being.

This shows us that the guidance or leading of God to the man is via the man’s spirit. It is via the spirit of the man that God gives light the whole of a man’s being. Thus the spirit is the part of the man that is capable of communicating with God, and it is via this faculty that the Holy Spirit speaks to and leads us. (Rom. 8:14)

Finally for now,

Heb. 12: 23

to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect

Among the throng in the Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, the writer of Hebrews mentions “the spirits of just men”. I hope it should be obvious that God did not gather the breaths (whatever that is) of the men of old together to be kept in one place.

Now, all these should suffice to show that the spirit of the man is a faculty within the man that is[b] capable of knowing, perceiving, rejoicing, praying and many other things[/b]. I really do hope you’d be open-minded and let the scriptures speak for themselves – it is NOT mere breath (again, whatever that means).

0
Avatar
Newbie

@bobbyaf,

Unfortunately, this would be a diversion from the topic at hand to something entirely different. However, since it’s obvious you do not understand some of these issues (no offence) I’d go into them.

First, the bible makes it explicitly clear that there are THREE parts to the WHOLE man.

1Thess 5:23

And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here there are three distinct entities which must be preserved complete and blameless at the coming of Christ. The order in which they are mentioned is also important, for it is from the innermost man to the outer man. These are what make up the WHOLE man.

For this discussion we can discountenance talking about the body. However, this verse makes it clear that the spirit is NOT synonymous with the soul. That they are different entities can be buttressed by this latter scripture:

Heb 4:12

For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Here we are made to realize that the Word of God is the instrument by which a separation or division of the spirit and the soul of man takes place. What the soul is and why there needs be such a separation isn’t my emphasis for now. Suffice it to say that, the mere fact that they CAN BE separated shows that they are two distinct entities.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@rockiedink,

(whom by the way I can teach a great deal from the scripture - in this I do not lie), is not an evidence of a humble mind, but one who does not know yet as he ought to know - 1 Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ricadelide,

A very good job you've done there. I was just going to come back and make a few statement, but you've covere it already.

I was going to refer to Mark 12:27 - He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken This alone should jettison any thought that those who died in faith are in one unconscious state as noetic and bobbyaf want us to believe. God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

Also you refered to the story of Lazarus which makes it clear that when a righteous man or sinner dies, they will be consious though there destinations are different. How clearer can these be?!

0
Avatar
Newbie

I want to commend the boldness of my friend, Noetic, for openly airing this seemingly enigmatic doctrine in the Church. However, we need to rightly divide the Word of truth. We need to know that God places a high premium on the death of the Righteous. Psalm 116:15 declares that

                           "precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints"

When a Christain dies, he goes directly without any hindrance to the presence of Christ in Heaven. Before I kick on, I observe that one is treading the path of error and doctrinal heresy if personal or private interpretation is employed in expounding the sacred Scriptures. Let us stay glued to the truth of the WORD however illogical it may appeal to our finite minds.

Thousands of years ago, a man of God, Asaph, was discouraged when he saw the prosperity of the wicked and he wanted to know the hope of the Righteous. He then marched to the Sanctuary of the Lord and the Spirit of the Lord assured him what would become of him after death. Listen to his testimony in Psalm 73:23-24

    " Nevertheless I am continually with thee (God): thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel (His Word and His Spirit), and afterward receive me to glory"  Asaph knew that he would be translated into His Glory after death. The Bible says Christ in you; the hope of glory.

There are sufficient incontestable and incontrovertible evidence(s), in the New Testament, that fortify the fact that Christains enter into rest immediately after death. I am going to give at least 5 facts to demonstrate this.I will be back shortly to do this. Bro Noetic, I am challenging you to reconsider your stance that Elijah was seen somewhere  within the coast of Israel some years  after his rapture.  Elijah actually went to Heaven after his rapture. The answer to your confusion is in 2 King  1:17-18. Read that and come to the house to apologise. Always try to have copious empirical facts before theorising your hypothesis.

   

Cheer

0
Avatar
Newbie

I will be gladly waiting

0
Avatar
Newbie

@topic,

Pilgrim1, thanks for your contributions. Maybe your bility to articulate things better will help drive the points home better than I could.

@bobbyaf and noetic,

I am kinda busy now, but will find some time to come back and address the points you made. In the mean time, pilgrim1 has done a good job trying to set your thinking straight.

Like Shwazenegger, I'll be back!!!!!!!!

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Hebrews 12:23 - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Before the ascension of Jesus, dead saints were rested in what jesus refers to as Abraham's bossom. They could not go to heaven despite the fact that they were justified spirits. Their spirits had to be made perfect. Paul mentioned that these men could not be made perfect without the Church - Hebrews 11:40 - God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.  So you see, these men's spirits were made perfect when the church came into existence and as such were taken up to heaven with Jesus after his resurrection. That explains why they are on the role call in heaven as I showed in Hebrews 12:23 above.

I'll continue with my answers subsequently. I don't want my responses to be too long for the sake of easy reading.

0
Avatar
Newbie

you are muddling things up and u didnt answer my question.

If you are already in heaven in spirit, why then do u need your physical body in heaven?

comparing the ressurection of Jesus to ours is ok. but note that Jesus was in spirit form from the beginning.(this is confirmed in the hebrew bible, where the creation was done by Elohim the plural name for God in genesis 1) it was His decision to die for mankind that made him come in flesh. this implies that dominion in heaven has always been in spirit. tha father, the son and the spirit plus the hosts of heaven have always been in spirit.

John 3vs13 Jesus said"no one has gone into heaven, except the Son of man that came down from it"

when apostle peter was explaining the concept and intrigues of Christs ressurection, to convince the isrealites about the realities of Jesus ressurection, he made startling revealations. lets examine them.

Acts2vs29-34

29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. , 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said

   " 'The Lord said to my Lord:

      "Sit at my right hand

notice the last verse david did not ascend into heaven. tayo-d where is david?

again to butress what I said earlier on, that the state of everyone before judgement is death. In john5:28, Jesus said "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice". This readily implies that on the day of judgement the state of all is dead.

you made refrence to apostle paul. true he said in phillipians1:23-24 that "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

he said this because as David also confirmed, once u re dead, u loose all sense of time, the next phase you know is judgement. also check ecclesiatess9:5 "For the living know that they will die,

       but the dead know nothing;

       they have no further reward,

       and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Paul re-affirmed this in 1thessalonians4:16 that "16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

and when he finished his good work i.e when he knew his time was up he said in 2timothy4:6-7 "6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, [b]will award to me on that day—[/b]and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing"

notice that he said on that day, and not immediately I die.

like I said, this is not an antheist or anti-Christian idea or provocation, I am a born again Christian, I only want us to know the truth and abide by it.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

absent in the body but present with the Lord. there is a separation at death, but there is a reuniting at the ressurection.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Noetic, Tayo-D's response is a good and biblically sound one.

1Cor15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

  It implies just what it says. Christ was the first ever to resurrect and never die (firstfruit), and so it'll be for "those who belong to Him"

0
Avatar
Newbie

@tayo-D

your last paragraph was contradictory. if the dead is in heaven, y ressurect the body again?

I am raising this issue that we may learn and abide by the truth.

apostle paul wrote in 1corth15:22-23 "for as in adam all die, even so in christ all shall be made alive, but each in his own order, Christ the firsth fruit and they that are His at His coming" what does that imply?

Rev20:4-5 " they came to life and reigned with christ for a thousand years" verse 11  mentions a great white throne judgement. in verse 12"and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened which was the book of life. and the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the book"

notice that the bible kept calling them dead, because that is their state before the judgement.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@noetic,

Let me give you a simple answer. If you really seek for more understanding, you will check out the Bible in depth to check out what I now present as the truth.

Indeed, a Christian who dies now goes straight to Heaven. Paul said "to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord." the Lord there being refernce to Jesus who is in heaven.

With regards to the resurrection, what happens to believers that are already dead is that there bodies will be raised up as well. This is one of the uniquneness of the Christian faith. Ours is the only one that teaches about the resurrection of our bodies. so you see, there is no controversy at all, except in the minds of those who lack this knowledge.

0
Avatar
Newbie
Your answer
Add image

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.