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Do You Believe In Fate?

I have being thinking on this issue of fate for quite some time now and I'll like to get your opinions. If you do believe in fate pls tell me why. Also is there a difference between fate and destiny. Well I believe everyone's destiny is in his/her hands, and the decisions we make, guided by our experiences and knowledge base, is what turns out to be what people call fate. What do you think?

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@Poster

I believe that God created us with a purpose and destiny.  I also believe that He has given us the key.  Meaning, our choices/free will determine whether we arrive to that purpose/destiny.  God has a perfect and permissive will.  From the very beginning God put Adam and Eve in a garden, gave His commands, their purpose (be fruitful, multiply, replenish the earth, ), and told them the consequences choosing to disobey.  (HIS PERFECT WILL). He could have not had the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right?  No, He left it at within reach.  They chose to disobey. (HIS PERMISSSIVE WILL). Why didn't He leave out that tree?  The gift of free choice and those choices will determine our destiny.  The word "IF" is a very small word but with great implications!!!!!  If you notice in the bible, whenever He gave a promise it was tied to an "IF".

For instance, how many wives would want their husbands to be in a world tempted by many woman and STILL choose to be faithful; without treats, spying, begging, munipulating him? But just out of his love for God, her, himself, and family. But if he chooses wrongly it hurts His whole life: marriage, family life, social standing, finances, etc.

In predestination, ppl forget the preceding words"For whom He (GOD) foreknew".  God in His omniscience knew and knows who would accept and who would reject Him.  He has planned accordingly.  He also knew Adam/Evil would should wrong and later be sorry.  Therefore, He pre-planned Jesus to die for and save those who have godly sorrow and repent. 

[b]Romans 8:29: For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:29:  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

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"Yes" because with fate you can pool dawn a mounting, if you have the fate that you will make it or you are going to get to the top, i promise you with fate you shall get there.

So with fate you can turn round everthing and ever situation.

Fate is the key of life.

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There is nothing like Fate when the situation goes bacd, God never wants his children to experience tough times, Remember the lord says he wil no let us go through what he longs we cannot handle, Lets just say bad things happen cos we are at the wrong place at the wrong time, DONT BLAME God

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i do agree wit u papermoon

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FATE,DESTINY OR WHAT NOT, all i know is that whatever will be will be and whatever has been was meant to be.

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I think best thing to do is; offer our scientific believe when it's necessary n vice versa.

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There are two problems in the co-existence of science and religion. It's not that they cannot exist together, but the relationship between the two beliefs will be problematic at least in some respects. Both problems try to limit the scope of science in one way or another. The core concept of any religion is faith, the belief in something without evidence, a belief that rests on prior acceptance of the basic premises of that religion.

1. The treatment of the religious source material (texts and tradition). You can read that material in two distinct ways. Either you take them at face value and consider them as a literal source of your religious conviction (e.g. the Bible is the literal word of God and all that is said in the Bible is correct), or you consider that material in an allegorical way, where you need to put it into context to understand the deeper meaning or message of that material. If you follow the first approach (like many protestant, fundamentalist churches do), you immediately come into conflict with science, because it is in direct contradiction with these texts. Some elaborate apologetic attempts have been tried to reason away those differences, but they always fail. Only people that don't have a clue about what science is about could be convinced by these arguments. Either that or they deliberately ignore the scientific findings.

2. There is an epistemological (source of knowledge) problem with bringing together faith and science. The application of reason in the real world requires a rational treatment of the available evidence in the natural world. By having faith in the principles of a religion, you accept these premises on authority. You remove them from rational scrutiny. In effect, you put a wall between those beliefs on faith and what reason can bring you to.

In effect, you limit the scope rationality. You are saying that rational thought cannot investigate these premises. This leads to the famous God-of-the -Gaps, a God that exists only there where science does not have the answers yet. Mind you, by taking that position, you are behaving irrational. This is exactly what many Christian scientists do and in most cases it doesn't cause any problems because their field of expertise does not overlap the domain of their God belief.

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"both can co exist". Of course they do. In some healing lines like dramatherapy, they work together. But no matter how much they co-exist, you still don't get somethings when u think about it. Think about ways in which science n religion is similar, try to use both to answer some question you've been dying to get answers (e.g. some religion teaches, there would be day of reckoning- heaven n hell. Use both to answer this question"what happen after we all die? What happen to the entire universe? Did both provide an answer?) U might get some answers for the first few mins but afterwards, u sort of get confused n u just decided not to think about it anymore.

Of course, many scientist believe in God n also using it to answer their scientific questions by comparing their religious teachings with scientific researches. Take Galileo Galilei for example. He was a great scientist, trying to find some answers, trying to prove the co-existence of science n religion n he was also a devout catholic. People then, (leaders of church)think he shouldn't be using the church to prove his researches. They think he was underestimating God. So, he was given house arrest for the rest of his life n was banned from publishing further books.

I think when we think about science n religion, we just tend to ignore it because it took us too far in thinking. I think best thing to do is; offer our scientific believe when it's necessary n vice versa.

[b]Most scientist here, means leading scientists like Galileo, Alexandre, Newton and so.on and scientist that believe in their works n those ffg their footsteps.

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Thanks 4 d observation, nicetohave!

But please let me explain how fate and destiny are not different. Both are popular names for one of the four parts of a natural law which keep life moving. This rule of doer beware is called: cause & effect, or retributive justice, or what u sow u reap, or Karma.

When u are born - your skin color, parents, sex, tribe, appearance, family members and circumstances, interests including talent, relationships - these are determined by the accounting balancesheet of how u lived the pastlives. This is what fate you bring into a new life, and as you grow up into these conditions, you like some and you don't like some, but its your life. Your talents and interests are tools of your freewill to accept or not to accept the ones you do not like. It is how you can change your destiny or what fate-karma prescribes for you.

On a daily basis however, each day you face choices and take action, manage your thoughts and feelings and words. The karma in each case credits or debits u accordingly. This is daily-karma in your accounting ledger.

Depending on how u use your freewill, at the end of each life, there are surplusses where you sowed good and bad that you didn't payback. There are debits, eg. grave offences such as murder, and credits, eg. gracious gifts of love and service, which you have not settled through payback or receipts from those involved.

There are some whose settlement would require drastic changes in fortune and so need to be administered to you at a pace to recreate the exact same circumstances under which you did them to others. These issues are reserved in a ledger until circumstances are right; such as a sudden lottery win and sudden death/accident/incapacity. This is reserve-karma.

The balancesheet places the normal day-to-day debits and credits, at each end of life into the fate-karma for the next incarnation. Such that when you meet someone even for the first time, you can feel such love or hate without knowing where it came from because you have both met before.

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some scientists, not [b]most.............[/b]nferyn's last comment is rather impressive i must say.

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chrisd. Both are not mutually exclusive, but it does mean that their beliefs cannot be of the literalist fire-and-brimstone kind. If you are open, tolerant and look for meaning and context rather than obedience and blind faith, both can certainly co-exist.

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Fate is different from destiny but our fate sort of control our destiny. fate is believed to be the power that control our life events of which we don't have power over while destiny is what we believed to happen in our future. It's what we believe(fate) that predicts our future.

I believe in both and the reason; I can really say but I think it's because I believe there is God. Most scientist don't believe in fate because they don't believe there is God.

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@ nferyn, I refer to yr conclusion!

I'd like to infer instead that it urges us to understand the goal of religion, beginning from the known.

What is the goal of religion? Should it be one that no one wishes to achieve?

Should death be a burden of fear or, like Saint Paul, can each of us also die daily?

I bet we may agree that every goal is one which will inspire even compel effort in particular direction.

So let me say that life is like a school of God, and the goal of religion is to train each and every child of God to be like God through direct and regular contact and curriculum. And not a one-off thing, to mention visible evidence of those who have achieved this goal already, plus the rest who are at varying stages learning and growing to reach it here and now. That is an evidence, I believe, you need now.

If you will, let me post-mail u a present, a book titled: [b][/b][i][/i]Those Wonderful ECK Masters, by Harold Klemp. It's an insight into hundreds and thousands of guardian angels, people like u & me, who have seen God and become godlike, living all around to teach the rest.

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@ lifexpress,

thank you for your insights. What I came to realise later in life is that your childhood and socialisation play a very important role in your basic outlook on life. During that time, you create an interpretative framework in your brain that allows you to make sense of the world around you. As you may know, certain thing (e.g. languages) become extremely difficult to learn or unlearn once you reach puberty.

I guess that also goes for the capacity to be religious or capability of accepting the supernatural. For me the experiental aspects of a God belief (things like feeling the spirit) absolutely make no sense at all. It might as well be an alien that is speaking to me.

The other possible aspects of a God belief (evidenctial indications of God's existence such as history, the Bible, etc) are so incoherent and rely so much on that conceptual, interpretative framework, that they are rather a strong indication against the existence of God than for the existence of God.

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Your brief story is a true gift of love; which means any gift from life to you which you pass on to another!

Let me also share my own true story:

At twenty, I got so disappointed with the concept of God in my Catholic Church that I changed its order of worship and re-wrote its prayers to suit me. For example, the Lord's Prayer, I had noticed that few if anyone forgave others as easily as the prayer assumed. Not to mention that so few other christians used that right-way-to-pray anymore. 5years after in March 1980, I came into my office at a university hospital and on my desk was a bookmark from my new religion, it introduced the concept of dreams as a one-on-one contact time with the Holy Spirit. and how to Sing HU to meet this Life Force. In my heart and in my head I was already ready for a change, but I had been willing to wait for it to happen. I knew no other member of my religion in that city at the time. The rest is history.

Please accept my sympathy for your very strong feelings, but I can assure you that it's a first step to realizing that you are the Image & Likeness of God yourself.

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Lifexpress, let me tell you a story.

I was born in an atheist household. the concept of God was completely alien to me. Later one, when I went to primary, I saw some kids were going to their weekly hour of religion class, they even did things like go to church. I found it quite funny and became interested in this thing they called God. I started to ask questions. I wanted to understand what they were talking about. Their answers however did not make any sense. Later on, I continued to do the same and started reading the Bible, church history and the like. I still didn't understand what that God character actually was, the only thing that changed was that the arguments became more sophisticated, just as my refutations of these arguments.

At adulthood I came to the conclusion that there is no sufficient proof for the existence of God, especially not for the Christian conception of God. Today I'm still open for the arguments in favor of the existence of God, but unfortunately, they are lacking because they require the one thing that I am incapable of: faith. They require that I accept things without evidence, only on authority. This is a grave insult of my intellect.

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fair statement on the surface, but not enough to justify your unbelief in God..........i pray you find what you need.

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Omniscience is one of the properties as declared by the great monotheistc religions. I reason from that point onward, but it does not mean that I accept that assumption. I use reason and evidence to give meaning to the world around me. The concept of a supreme being does not fit in that picture.

I am an athiest, I lack the belief in the concept of a supreme being. What would make me change my stance is conclusive evidence or proof of that being. I am incapable of faith; I could possibly believe in it, but not on faith alone.

I have read the Bible and found it lacking as a source to give meaning to the world or my life, as it contradicts too much knowledge I have that is based on belief in the evidence of science. On top of that the Christian concept of God is also full of logical contradictions that need to be explained aways by using epistemiological tricks (such as ascribing God's omniscience to be of a different kind than ours).

This is why I remain atheist unless someone brings me evidence of the existence of God.

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It is not an assumption that God is omniscient, because he tells the end from the beginning and he declares to us what will happen in the end of times...........if perhaps a God might exist, have you cared to search to know this even as you have done diligently the work of science? if you would discard the bible, perhaps have you sought other means to find this God if he so exists?

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I personally believe that, if God were to exist, it would be impossible to have any knowledge of him. On the other hand, I don not believe in the existence of God, but that belief is not absolute (i.e. I acknowledge the fact the God might exist, but then he would be very different from all the conceptions of all humans of him)

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you give me something to think about......do you speak here for yourself or is it a general statement?

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in your opinion then those that have something to say about him speak falsehood?

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Nobody can say anything at all about God.

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That's one riddle 4 all to resolve! Welcome to it, now or later.

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That's an easy cop out. You can explain away anything an everything like that. This would mean that God's omniscience is different in kind than our own conception of it, making it empty of meaning. You can just as well say that God is hdfsjsdf

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The inconsistencies you refer exists in their dozens only in the human mind trying to understand its creator. It's like your own toy created by you trying to decipher whether you exist! A computer trying to determine if man actually exists!

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This is the classical inconsistency of Christian doctrine: if you believe in an omniscient (all-seeing) God, then, by definition, you believe in predestination. Some protestant denominations (e.g. the Calvinists) accept that this is a consequence of believing in an omniscient God.

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Before we get pretty messed up in here let me set some things straight. The Bible has never taught predestination. Free will has always been the watch-word of christianity. Take for instance the case of the isrealites. In deteronomy they were told, 'I have put life and death, blessing and malediction, in front of you, and you should choose life in order to continue living, you and your offspring'.

They had the power to choose! Even that far back God gave options. The future is never fixed for anyone. If the bible taught pre-destination, then all the tenets of christianity would be found wanting.

Why?

1. There would be nothing like true repentance

2. God will have no moral integrity to judge sinners since He destined sin on them

3. God would be seen as partial( the bible says 'God is not partial')

Let us be careful not to ascribe doctrines of popular churches as teachings of the bible. Fate, destiny, and predestination are teachings that have roots in ancient greek mythology. That some churches choose to teach them is their business. To show how ridiculous believe in fate is, Read the statement that follows: Walk across a major highway with your eyes closed. If you were not destined to die then, nothing will happen to you, but if you were, you'll die even with your eyes wide open!

Lets think with our heads, fellow Nigerians. God is not to be mocked!

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@ logical it's all good giving us your supposed islamic take on destiny but i totally disagree with you. Destiny or fate is one of the articles of faith i.e not believing in one nullifies your faith. Destiny or fate in islam mean qadeer meaning your life is already decided and whatever happens Allah has already ordained hence the quote "All things good or bad are from Allah".

6 articles of faith if i still remember correctly are

1 faith in Allah

2 faith in the angels

3 faith in the prophets

4 faith in the last day

5 faith in the holy books

6 faith in destiny of fate whichever

Destiny in Islam is so important that there are countless ahadith on how a person's life is already predetermined from the moment he/she is still a drop of sermen about to fertilise an egg.

By the way I don't believe in destiny it's an excuse for all wrongs that should be right

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Destiny or fate brings us into this life, the conditions and circumstances, freewill takes us out the way we choose to use it, or not to use it at all. Such as being unable to learn and apply better judgement and discrimination to improve your life! Sickness is one example of how we choose to use freewill to hurt ourselves or others close to us in family or business.

There is destiny, but as princes and princesses of God, we each have the right to re-write this destiny through over-coming the issues of anger, greed, lust, attachment to material possessions and vanity. This means, living this life as children of God - a life of love, service and self-responsibility. There is more, if you choose; visit www.eckankar.org

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FATE IS:.destiny: an event (or a course of events) that will inevitably happen in the future

.fortune: your overall circumstances or condition in life (including everything that happens to you); "whatever my fortune may be"; "deserved a better fate"; "has a happy lot"; "the luck of the Irish"; "a victim of circumstances"; "success that was her portion"

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Fate: A final result or consequence; an outcome.

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...throw a coin, it will always land with a side, so no matter what you do or believe, just remember that there is ALWAYS a REWARD

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@ Logica, It won't be logical to say that both Christianity and Islam holds same view when it comes to Fate.

Both of my arguments above would not need any refference were you to be a Christian., and neither would I pretend to have any Idea of what the Holy Quran is saying, despite sleeping and waking up with a copy(My Ma is a Muslim).

And since most of us agreed that the ways of the gods and God is not the way of we human beings, then we can also agree that there is nothing Logical in the Spiritual realms relating to us human beings because our ways are not the same.

I won't argue with an Indian now on Fate because they too have their funny views on it(I used to have an Indian girlfriend).

All the same, like I concluded in my ealier posting....let's just keep doing good, no matter what, all have it's reward..more like kama.

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fate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ft)

n.

...The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.

...The inevitable events predestined by this force.

...A final result or consequence; an outcome.

...Unfavorable destiny; doom.

From the definition above, it's obvious fate is an outcome...not a route to an outcome.

Fate is bad Destiny.

Your explanation of the difference btw fate and destiny pictures GOD as a confused one and thus I strongly disagree.

Why would GOD destine you to be rich without a definite route to make that riches? Why the vacumm in destiny (btw the time u were born and the time u became rich)?

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There is a very clear-cut distinction between fate and destiny. It's just that people find it difficult to understand. Your destiny is in God's hands and your fate is in your hands. Your dsetiny has been pre-detremined by God. Fate is the route you take  there and what happens afterwards as a result of your actions. Let me bring forward premises to back my argument.

1. Mr Jack has been destined to be rich - Destiny

2. He worked hard for his riches and dies honourably- Fate 1, or

3. He opted for rituals (blood money) to get rich and dies mysteriously - Fate 2, or

4. He opted for dirty business ranging from stealing to 419ing and was sentenced to death by hanging - Fate 3.

From the above premises, it will be noted that God's pre-determined will for him is to be rich which is his destiny( premise 1). It is now left for him to decide which route to take to his richies which brings him fate (premises 2,3, or 4). The aftermath (consequences) of the route to his richies is also his fate. It is his fate because he diecided that for himself. What God does is choose a destiny for you which is to be rich, its now left for you to choose your way to riches and that is your fate.

In a nutshell,  nferyn understands this better than I do and he has explained it in a simplistic way.

What God has pre0-determined for you is your destiny

The results of your own action - positive or negative - is your fate.

Nobody can change or influence destiny, you can infleunce your fate by your actions.

I rest my argument.

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There is nothing like free will? Man, u must be funny. That God said they shouldn't eat a particular fruit doesn't mean there is no free will. If you are told not to drink while driving, you still have the free will do do it and the free will to die when u do it.

God can drag us to him if he wants to but he's powerful to resist the temptation. He wants us to desire him of our free will. That is the power Obasanjo doesn't have. He can't leave power alone.

And if u must strive to understand God. At least understand enough to do his will that will get u to heaven else u will join ppl like Ka in hell.

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I have explained to you before and inputs from logical have put it into a broader perspective, and i repeat again not because i hope you will see it now but later perhaps and for the benefit of others that, Freewill is encoded in predestination, what God wants you to be is one and what he wants you to be is never in isolation from the entirety of his creation, the entire universe, what he wants you to be is in one way or another interconnected with the big picture, just as i have said that Jesus was predestined to die for our sins yet if he had declined in the graden of gethsemane man would still have been redeeemed, how? i don't know but we will----now his free will was subject to predestination but was not taken away from him...........God told cain if he had done right he would have been accepted, but God knew with sin lying at the door of cain knew what he was about to do, but was his free will to stop from butchering his brother taken from him? NO, free will is given to us to use in accordance to the will of God, or predestination, we can go on and on...................does it get any simpler than this?

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Predestination does not contradict free will but makes room for it

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@ logical

Universal Knowledge implies knowledge of the future

Knowledge of the future implies predestination

Predestination contradicts free will

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To nferyn it is not, and it wont................until he realises there is a God in the first instance, then other things shall be clearer to him

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@Nferyn

Om·nis·cient

a.

[Omni- + L. sciens, -entis, p. pr. of scire to know: cf. F. omniscient. See Science.]

Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise; as, the omniscient God. -- Om·nis·cient·ly, adv.

Having universal knowledge. Yes Allah does have universal knowledge, but the choice of mankind is not knowledge. It is the choice of which he makes, the effects of the choice is knowledge. My apologise, but I think you dont see what I am trying to explain.

I dont want to confuse you, I think I have tried my best in trying to explain the difference between knowledge and choice made by factors that surrounds the knowledge. its logical. I think.

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@ Logical

So in Islam, Allah is not omniscient, which makes him different from the Judeo-Christain God. He knows all possible outcomes of the actions people can take, but he does not know which actions they will take, as he leaves to choice to them.

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I dont see how their free will was taken away, afterall they eventually ate the fruit afterall..............free will is the ability to chose and act on your choice, at the same time bearing the brunt of the consequences; what you want to refer to as free will is to act in a certain way and yet be free of its damnable consequences, yes we all have our free will, to make up your own mind............to serve him or not, to believe him or not, that removes the concept of fate, removes the concept of destiny but does not remove the concept of predestination because that is the premise upon which your free will hinges, accept it or not, and face the consequences, life or death, thereafter; if God is omnipotent, omniscience, omnibenevolent, that is not for me to defend anymore because i have made my mind known on that earlier on, we waste precious time sometimes, i think!!!

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@ logical

Thank you for trying to bring some sense into this debate. I think though that you've just added a layer of abstraction to the discussion.

From what I understood, in Islam, the properties of Allah are still in contradiction with the concept of free will.

Isn't Allah omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent? If so, then there is still no free will.

Can you clarify?

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I don't intend to start a religious debate here, but I really need to clarify an issue here.

Islamic opinions and facts are not for you to judge, thats why I said a little bit of rationality would be greatly appreciated. It is very logical.

Is that an opinion based on your understanding, or from the bible. A reference would be appreciated.

Well said, so every humanity has a chance then, not based on destiny, since God can change his mind according to your opinion.

And last of all. God is all loving. He is Fair, he does not pre-destine Hell for some nor pre-destine Heaven for some. The choice of heaven and Hell is in the hands of humanity based on their deeds, thanks to freedom of free will. Destiny in Islam is clearly defined, and does not cover all aspects of life. I repeat this is an Islamic point of view. So treat it with rationality.

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