«Home

God Does Not Need Us; We Need Him - How Come He Created Us?

How true this is that God does not need us but we need, I have the following questions if anyone can help out:-

1. If God has not made us, what would have happened to us?

2. A man not created; can he be missing something he’s not aware of?

3. If we were not created, someone would say we would have missed all the beautiful things of this world, but what about those that died in war, famine, or killed by enemies etc. What kind of enjoyment or pleasure did they derived by coming into this world

4. If we were created out of love, then it should not matter what we do, because we did not asked to be created in the first place

5. Every product is as a result of a need or a purpose and to benefit the maker, if God made us, we are his product and should accept full responsibility for our existence unless we both exist together as one and only God in different manifestations so we both share the responsibility

Please I need your inputs

Avatar
Newbie
49 answers

Hi again sarmy.

Radiation is a natural consequence of existence. Everything, including stones, trees, animals, mountains, and etc, radiates. Thus it is impossible for anything to decide not to radiate. A stone radiates, for example, but a stone cannot decided to stop radiating neither can it decide to change its radiation; but a human spirit can decide to change its radiation, however it cannot decide to stop radiating. I repeat: Everything that exists radiates and it is impossible to exist without radiating.

I don't know if this helps but I am will to expand if you want me to; and I have a premonition of where you are going with this, but I rather wait till you ask the question that I suspect you have in mind.

Radiation is as a result of the motion of the innerconstituents of anything. The motion of the particles of stone causes it to radiate. A human spirit, for example who is filled with lust; this lust creates a disturbance in the motion of the particles of the spirit, and causes its radiation to change. This change in radiation can also be likened to a prayer, a request or a petition. For by giving off this radiation, the spirit makes itself homogeneous or easily assailable by that particular radiation, and consequently lustfull radiation will flow towards this spirit encouraging it to lust more and more.

It is like a radio turned to a particular channel; lets say channel 10. By switching your radio to channel 10, you cause the inner circuits of the radio to vibrate in a frequency similar to the frequency that channel 10 transmits. Though this homogeneity in vibration, your radio picks up signals from channel 10 while ignoring other channel's. Another way to put it is that the tuner of your radio has to resonate at a frequency homogeneous to what channel 10 puts out, and this allows you to pick up the signals.

The human spirit works in a similar way. By having a desire(lust for example), this desire radiates from the spirit and like a radio tuned to a particular channel, it picks up signals from that channel; ie the spirit begins to pick up signal from the centers of lust.

The same way, a spirit filled with desire to be healed. As long as this desire is from the spirit, it causes the spiritual radiation to change; The radiation is now attuned to the healing power centers, and through this connection healing flows to the spirit.

Thus the whole creation is like a very very very fertile soil. Anything that emanates from your spirit immediately receives help from the beyond. If a spirit radiates pure love, the purity of this love will allow his petition to receive help from God Himself who is Purity and Love.

So in answer to your question, every desire, petition, or prayer that emanates from the spirit is evidenced in the radiation of the spirit.

This in turn also causes your other bodies(astral, ethereal) to radiate; because it is actually the spirit that radiates through these bodies. In the olden days, and even up till today, clairvoyant people could see these radiation and their colors. Statements like "He is green with envy" is not just a figure of speech but it was driven from a reality in creation. Enviousness cause the astral body to radiate a greenish color.

I can go on and on about radiations, but this will deviate us from the theme of the tread.

Right. The spirit germs makes this petition after they have reached reached a certain stage in their maturity. The ability to make decisions lay slumbering in the spirit germs; overtime the powerful activity of the Primordial spiritual beings causes these slumbering abilities within the spirits germs to gradually awaken.

It's like a seed of mango left out in the sun. The currents of air, the heat from the sun, the rainfalls and etc are all the powerful activities of nature. Over time in the exposure to these powerful activities, the seed may begin to sprout. By sprouting, it is asking the farmer to plant it; for it can no longer remain as a seed.

The spirit germs remain germs(seedlings) and overtime evolved to a stage where they are ready to be planted. If this is what you mean by 'reaching point of maturity,' then you are right, and I never said the contrary. But if by maturity you mean fully developed, then that is wrong.

They reached a point where they are matured enough to be planted. Just like a mango seed has to reach a certain point before it has any chances of surviving when planted. Seeds inside a newly blossomed fruit(unripe fruit) may not be mature enough to be planted and if planted, it will not germinate.

The petition to be created was made by the radiations of God, in the Divine plane. These radiations of God could not take on form in the Divine plane, they accumulated at the outermost part or border of the Divine. Puting it in my own words: This is tantamount to saying that they knock on the walls of the Divine plane, asking to be let out. However these are just unformed radiations seeking to be formed, but could not do so in the Divine plane because of the pressure or heat of the proximity of God; not the spirit germs.

The possibility of these radiations to taken on form, can be likened to a petition to be allowed to do so. Thus in my perception, the petition lay in the possibility. I have already explained that where there is possibility or room for development, the love of God grants this oppotunity for development.

Thus creation became a necessry out the Love of the creator.

These Divine radiations have many constituents--Primordial Spiritual(the strongest), Spiritual, Animistic, and Matter; howerver in the Divine they could not separeate and take on form. Thus one can say that they did not exsist in the Divine, only thier component elements exsisted.

It should not be hard to decipher that it is the strongest constituent of the radiation that reached a point where one can say that it petitioned to be created.

It was the Primordial Spiritual that was directly created(allowed to taken on form) by God. What came after that was a reflection of the Primordial Spiritual folowing the law that 'where there is possibility or room for developement, the love of God grants this oppotunity for development.'

The Spiritual precipitated from the Primordial spiritual, after the Primordial Spiritual had been created.

The spirit germs originated in the lowest plane of the Spiritual.

The process is very gangantic and I didn't want to go very deep into it.

All creatures owe their existence to the radiation of God, but God is not the origin of all creatures. In other words: All creatures have thier origin in the radiation of God and not in God Himself. God and his radiation are two different things; God is not his radiation. m_nwankwo has written elaborately on this fact, so there is no need elaborating any further.

You can argue that the radiations of God are an inevitable consequence of the existence of God; but these radiations are not created creatures. It is up to God to create(allow creatures to arise) from these radiation; therefore created creatures are not an inevitable consequence of the existence of God.

I will give you an example. I, like all human beings excrete sweat. Thus the sweats that I excrete daily is an inevitable consequence of my existence in a physical body on earth. If I decide to collect my sweat over years, allow it to condense in a freezer, and then chisel our a statue from it. This is not impossible, I can chisel out a statue from my frozen sweat, just like people create statues from frozen water, ice blocks. Lets just call the statue I produced from my sweat Mr. Jonas.

It is true that this piece of work, Mr. Jonas, owe its existence to my excretion; but it will be very wrong to think that Mr. Jonas is an inevitable consequence of my existence.

If I leave Mr. Jonas in my living room, overtime it will start to defrost. By the defrosting, Mr. Jonas is telling to put it in a colder environment for it can no longer exist as it is in my living room. It is up to me wheather to grant this or allow Mr. Jonas to defrost and cease to exist. Just like it is up to the farmer wheather to plant the seeds that are beginning to sprout or leave them to perish.

Likewise it is up to God wheather to allow creation to continue by providing it with what it needs to continue or wheather to leave it to gradually diminish and finally cease to be.

I can decide to let Mr Jonas perish(melt and become liquid sweat again) without losing any particle of my being. Likewise God can allow creation to cease to exist Without losing any particle of Himself.

I definitely do not need Mr. Jonas, but he most definitely needs me to exist. Likewise God does not need creation to exsist but creation definitely needs God to exsist.

Thanks a lot and remain blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Thus there is God and his radiations. Everthing outside of God has its orgin in the radiations of God irrespective of whether it is within and outside of creation. God is not in creation but outside and above all creations, but his power or emanations lies in creation, indeed creation arose out of his radiations or emanations. Thus God is not in his creations or to put it more correctly, God is not in his radiations. Thus no radiation of God even if such a radiation is a divine being can see God. But since the power of God vibrates in creation and outside of creation, then any creature can connect to God by the process of radiation . Human beings uncounsciously or counsciously gain this connection through genuine prayer or by simply living in the sense of the laws of God.

The only way God can be in creation is by temporarily enveloping a very small part of Himself with his radiations. This proceess is known as incarnation, an event that once happened with the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The radiations become clocks or envelopes of the unsustantiate God. That was how it was when Jesus entered creation and lastly the earth. But after dropping all the radiation clocks, first the physical body and lastly the divine body, the unsubstantiate small part of God the Father that is Jesus Christ was drawn back to God the Father, the Primordial Light.

Thus Jesus Christ is no more in creation but outside and above creations as well as outside and above the eternal divine worlds. Jesus Christ, the son of God is in God the Father. Thus visions or revelations claiming to be from Jesus Christ are laughable for one who is permitted personal experience into these things. Even, a radiated picture of a primordial being will render the human spirit uncounscious, how much less an approach by a son of God. Every vision, revelation, genuine NDE experience, miracles and similar things can very easily be explained in the light of the laws of God but since these visionaries, seers or prophets or mystics imagine that they know, it is best to leave them at there own creations. Supreme over all else is the will of God which manifests in the irrevocable march of events. And this irrevocable march of events bearing the will of God will show which creature, individual , nations or groups have followed the right course.

As per the origin of the spirit germ and the process of its decent into the world of matter, Justcool has dealt with it. More importantly, the entire process of creation is descrined in the Grail Message and I refer you to that work. If however you still have some questions, I will be pleased to offer my perception.

I do not belong to any religion. I adhere to the teachings of the Grail Message. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Thanks so much for your time in explaining this further. However, kindly clarify the following issues:-

1. If everything in creation radiates including the spirit germs, could it have been possible for any of the creations to decide not to radiate

2. If change in radiation is likened to petition to develop further, can we likened no change in radiation to no-petition

3. If it was the powerful activities and radiations of the primordial beings above that caused the spirit germs to change to a point of maturity where they can make petition for self consciousness, its contradictory to say that they were already making any form of petition before reaching their point of maturity.

The creator therefore can be said to be responsible, since all the radiations emanated from him, without those radiations the unconcious spirit germs would not develop to a stage where they can make any form of petition.

Thanks

0
Avatar
Newbie

^^^^ Nwankwo, do you know what radiations mean? You say these socalled "radiations of God" are not part of God, but yet they are radiations emanating from God. Haven't you just contradicted yourself right there? Are the radiations of the sun not part of the sun? Just because the sun's radiations are projected outwards and far from the sun does not make them less integral part of the sun.

Are these radiations of God separate entities? Are you saying that these "radiations" are uncreated, unconscious, separate entities from God that yearn for existence? Do you realize how convoluted and self-contradictory that idea is? It is a ludicrously convoluted hypothetical gymnastics. It just doesn't work. While it is a creative concept, but it just does not work. I think you will need to either rework your current model or create a new one.

0
Avatar
Newbie

There are mulifarious gradations of the unformed radiations of God. The unformed radiations of God that existed before creation  are divine unformed radiations. The unformed spiritual radiations from which the spirit germs ermerged or precipitated from were not in existence before creation. The unformed spiritual radiations of God from which the human spiritual developed from came into existence only after the first or primordial creation.

God created out of love for his radiations and in answer to the uncounscious urge for existence that is hardwired in his radiations.  In these beautiful creations, each and every unformed radiation of God has the possibility to instantaneously emerge as a conformation or develop from a seed to a conformation. Every creature of God, no matter how blessed can counsciously exist only within creation.  Should God decide to limit his radiations to the way it was before creation, then the entire creation and all the creatures will cease to exist.

I see your point but do not agree with it. There is a relationship between the creator and his creation but that realtionship is not tantamount to inseparability. A Potter and the clay in his hands are not inseparable. The Potter can mould the clay to any form he so desires, pot, plates, blocks, even buildings and yet these are conformations of the clay and not conformations of the Potter. If the forms, pot, plates, buildings etc decays or disintegrates, they will return back to clay and not the Potter. Thus even if a conformation of the radiation of God is disintegrated, then it reverts back to unformed radiation of God. There is no transformation that will transform the stellar radiations into the sun. Similarly, no amount of transformation or development can turn a creature into the creator or parts of the creator. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

One can only answer from ones paradigm.

As a Christian U have to understand 'God" in a different way.

There is a spirit(invisible) aspect of God and there's a visible side.

The father is God, which no man has ever seen. He is a Spirit.

The father is said to dwell in an unapproachable light.

The son(Jesus) is God which pple have seen. He is the only manifested member of the Godhead,

the expression, and the image of God(the father).

The holy spirit, as the name implies is unseen too. U can call Him the energy of the Godhead.

So in essence there's the antromophic side of God.

God is not the uiverse He created the universe.

Where is His home? Well we are told He is in heaven. Lemme quickly say there are depth in the oceans

hights in the heaven , space in the universe that has not been and cannot be xplored by science.

He told them that if they've seen him(Jesus) then they'v seen the father, not because of the general "God is in us" talk.

If that was the case Jesus wuldda said as long as u see EACH OTHER u'v seen God.

Buthe said if u'v seen Him(Jesus) u'v seen God(the father) cos like i said Jesus is the expresion, the splittin image of Him.

Stay blessed.

oNe

0
Avatar
Newbie

@sarmy

In addition to what I wrote in my previous post and to further elaborate on the issue of the development of the spirit germs, here is what I wrote in another thread.

Please read:

Thanks

0
Avatar
Newbie

@sarmy

Thanks for your questions, I will treat them accordingly.

I agree with m_nwankwo's explanation but not in the words that you put it, and I don't think that your words accurately capture what m_nwankwo was conveying. It is not from their state of inexistance that the spirits germs longed to be created. Inexistance is the wrong choice of words; the spirit germs not only were already in existence before the longing arouse in them, but they had already reached a stage in their existence. Thus they were already in existence, and after a certain degree of maturity or ripeness did the urge for consciousness arise in them.

Replace the word 'inexistance' with the word 'unconscious.' The spirit germs were in existence in Paradise but in an unconscious state of existence.

Now I know your next question: "How can something unconscious develop an urge or a petition?"

The answer to this puzzle lie in the love of God and in the radiation of the spirit germs. There is a law in creation which can be expressed as "where there is room for development, development must be made." The love of God is always watchfull and always gives help where help it needed; it always provides an opportunity for development where development is possible.

Everything in creation radiates, the spirit germs radiates too, and at a certain stage in the state of the spirit germs their radiation changes. This change in radiation can be likened to a petition to the creator to be allowed to develop. The spirit germs carry the ability to develop within them, just as a mango seed carries the ability to grow into a mango tree. And I have already explained in my previous post that in creation every ability is constantly caressed into activity and cannot remain inactive.

The activity of the created primordial beings in Primordial spiritual planes radiate downwards towards the spiritual planes, influencing and supporting the spiritual into activity. It is these radiations that influences the unconscious spirit germs, caressing them to reach to the stage where they are ripe to be planted. At this stage, their colour of their radiation changes and the Love of God notices this change.

Thus it is not a conscious petition per-ser. It can be likened to a mango fruit which on reaching a certain state of ripeness changes colour. The watchful farmer notices this change in color and plucks the fruits. One can say that the fruits asked to be plucked by reaching that stage in their ripeness which necessitated their plucking.

It can also be likened to a child inside the womb of its mother. On reaching a stage in its development the child causes contractions which the woman feels as pains of labour and knows that the child is ready to be born. Thus one can say that the child asked its mother to give birth to it. Prior to birth, the child had existed but in a different form. Prior to birth the child is a developing fetus, but after birth it becomes a child. The same is applicable to the spirit germ; prior to ejection from paradise it was just an unconscious spirit germ or seed.

It is also compareable to an infant in a crib. On reaching a certain stage of hunger, the infant gives out a cry. The watchful mother recognises this cry as a request, petition or urge to be feed, and and picks up the infant and feeds it.

I will summerize:

The spirit germs came into existence in Paradise as unconscious spirit germs. The powerful activity of the primordial beings above has an effect on all that is spiritual, even the unconscious spirit germs. This effect causes the germs to reach a point in their maturity where they develop an urge towards self consciousness. The love of God notices this change in the spirit germs and affords them the opportunity to do so by allowing them to be ejected from paradise.

I hope this helps; you can always as questions.

You can also check out what I wrote in another thread about the development of the spirit germs and why they left Paradise here: http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=390145.msg5421272#msg5421272

Also check out my next post, immediatley after this post.

I offered my perception on the structure of creation, from Primordial to the coarsest gross matter, in following thread as well as many other threads.

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=443101.msg6013170#msg6013170

Please read it and let me know if you have questions. I will gladly offer my perceptions on any question you may have.

I will not call my perceptions 'a school of thought,' I write out of a LIVING conviction in me. I draw my knowledge from a book called 'In the Light of Truth: The Grail Message.' by Abd-ru-shin. You might want to examine the book yourself.

Thanks and remain blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@Sarmy and Jenwitemi,

I will address your comments and questions over the weekend. My apologies for not replying soonest. Stay blessed.

@Justcool,

Hi. Thanks for your kind words. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I was asking m_nwankwo if (from his perception) God is:-

1. A person with legs, hands, eyes, head, etc and siting on the throne somewhere

2. An energy source with no specific shape/size, or can take any shape he likes

3. Spiritual force, light or life living inside of us and has no specific shape size or place of abode

4. May be he's actually the universe like you said.

5. Where is his abode, is he ouside of this physical universe, or in a parallel invisible universe.

These questions and many more are begging for answers though we may not know which is the correct answer for now, but at least we can keep asking ourselves, in as much as he has never appeared to anyone, some claimed to have died and came back to life saying they saw Jesus, heaven, hell etc but no one has ever said they saw God. When Thomas asked Jesus to show them the father, he only said if they have seen him they have seen the father which mean God is in us. God in us, hope of glory

0
Avatar
Newbie

Thanks for that exposition but can you explain more on the need aspect of creation, are you 100% in support of m_nwankwo that even though "the drive or urge for existencce is hardwired in the spirit seed" by the creator, it was still the created longing for existence from their state of inexistence. if you agree with him, can you add more inputs.

Please don't hesistate to go into details on the primordial spiritual realm to the coarsest gross material realm or heaven and earth if you can, seems you and m_nwakwo are of thesame school of thought. Thanks

0
Avatar
Newbie

nice thread but jeez loooooooooong posts

0
Avatar
Newbie

The above is really very deep and I completely agree with it. When it comes to earthly manifestations one has to be careful before labeling what the individual making the manifestation is. What is important and what is decisive in setting into motion the laws of creation is the radiations of the spirit and not necessarily the physical manifestation of the ability which resides in the spirit.

I will give an example:

A man who has nourished(in his spirit) the desire to write stories; this desire radiates out of his spirit and attracts stories, but his physical body cannot bring these stories into the physical realm in the form of a book, because perhaps this man does not know how to read and write. Before the laws of creation such a man is a writer, even though he has never, physically written a book.

This man may have contributed, thorough his volition, to the writing of Chinua Achebe’s book without knowing it.

Another example:

An man is filled with the desire to murder, but out of fear of going to jail, he never committed murder physically. Before the laws of creation this man is a murderer, even though the earthly legal systems would not call him a murderer.

Likewise a man may be filled with the volition to make money, this volition radiates from his spirit. He decides that the best way to make money is by becoming a pastor. Filled with this volition he goes to school and learns how to preach and becomes a pastor. Men on earth would call him a pastor, but before the laws of creation, such a man is not a pastor. Before the laws of creation he remains a man lusting after money. As long as his desire to preach did not emanate from his spirit, as long as this desire is merely propelled by the spiritual volition to make money, this man remain a man lusting for money and not a pastor as far as the laws of creation are concerned.

Thus it is not the outward manifestation that determines what a man is, but rather that which radiates from his spirit.

One thing about creation is that that abilities, desires, and volitions never remain inactive. Every desire, ability or volition that emanates from the spirit takes on form and presses upon condensation. Even if the person who produced it did not condense it personally, it can press upon another person of the same nature and gets condescend through that parson.

Every ability that resides in your spirit is constantly being coarse into activity. If it ever becomes inactive in you, you will lose this ability; it will be pulled away from you by one who makes use of it. To him who has little, even the little he has will be taken away from him and be given to him who has more.

No volition can remain inactive, it is constantly evolving, growing, attracting others and being attracted to others; it is constantly affecting others and the person who produced it. It may cause another person to anchor it in the physical, and not necessarily the person who produced it.

The same is applicable to God, only in a higher form. God’s volition can never become inactive. It takes on form and is constantly working. The creative ability of God took on form and is constantly working -- eternally creating and renewing creation. As long as this ability resides in God, God is a creator. Thus what makes God a creator is not what He created but the ability to create which lies eternally in God.

God can exist without creation(From primordial spiritual realm to the coarsest gross material realm or heaven and earth) But God cannot exist without His creative ability; as much as He cannot exist without His love; because these are intricate parts of His being. Even the radiations of God carry these qualities(abilities); and these qualities(abilities) in the radiation of God takes on form and formed the realm of Divine substantiality. I.e. the Primordial Queen is the conformation of the Love of God in the radiations of God; while Jesus is the conformation of the love of God that is in God Himself(within God).

Thus God did not need to create creation(Heaven and earth) to become a creator; He was, He is and He will eternally be the Creator, because the ability to create is eternally living within Him as an intricate part of Him.

Likewise God did not need to create creation(heaven and earth) to become love; He was, He is and He will eternally remain the LOVE, because the Living LOVE(Jesus) is eternally living within Him as an intricate part of Him.

This is my perception though.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@m_nwankwo, thanks for the additional information. I will like to clarify the following.

1. From your believe, is God a spirit person and having eyes, legs, hands, etc or an enegy source like sun or what? (I personally obseved that most people that claimed to have died and came back to life or NDE's no one has ever seen God, some may claim to have see heaven or met Jesus but not God, so is God a person or energy source)

2. Like you rightly said that the drive or urge for existencce is hardwired in the spirit seed, it means that God did the wiring, if he had not done that we would not have had any urge to exist and if we did not exist we would not have known or missed anything at all

I'm interested in that process if you can share more.

3. By the way, are you a xtain, muslim, or what?

Thanks

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ Jenwitemi. Hi, my answer to Sarmy is relevant to some of the questions you raised in your last post. Hopefully tommorrow, I will find time to address some of the specific questions/comments in your last post. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi Sarmy. Thanks for your response. The questions you raised are pertinent and I will attempt to address them as follows. God is the Primordial Life or the Primordial Light or the Primordial Power. In other words only God is alive and everything else that is alive derived their "life" from God. One can also say that God is the Primordial source of Energy. A natural consequence of Primordial Life, Light, Power or Primordial Energy is that it radiates or produces emanations. Thus, there is only God and his emanations or radiations. The divine radiations of God is everthing else outside of the unsubstantiate Primordial Source. A crude analogy will be to use the sun and its stellar radiations. The stellar radiations are produced or emanate from the sun but they are not the sun itself.

Now, this divine radiations of God contain all the building blocks of what ever was, is and will take on form. Now, the ability to take on form is dependent on the intrinsic strength of any radiation of God to withstand the enormous pressure or force field that is a consequnce of the Primordial Energy. Now the strongest of all these radiations were able to take on form and became divine confirmations of the radiation of God. Now when everthing that can withstand this force field from God has taken on form, there remained residues of these divine radiations which can not form themselves because they are not strong to withstand the  force fields in the "proximity" of God. These residues cannot form  but they do have the intrinsic drive or urge or longing for existence. These residues of the divine radiations are hardwired to strive from uncounsciousness to counsciousness and then to self counsciousness.

Just like life on earth is possible only billions of light years from our sun, so is it that these uncounscious residues of divine radiations can only take on form at cosmic distances from God. It is in aswer to this hardwired uncounscious urge for existence that God through an act of his will brought creation into existence. It is only in creation will these residues  be able to take on form instantaneously or through development. Now the first cooling off of these residues constitute the first creation or what is refered to as Primordial creation. The Primordial creation is the direct creation of God and it can be described as an image or a reflection of the divine worlds. A cooling off of the unformed residues of the primordial creation gave rise to spiritual creation. The spiritual creation is again an image or reflection of the primordial creation. At the last plane of the spiritual creation, there remained some spirtual radiations which can not take on form in the spirtual instantaneously or by development. To these belong the human spirt germs or seeds. Again just like a seed can only develop into a plant if it sown in a fertile soil, the only possiblity for the human spirit seeds or germs to develop and form is to be expelled from the heaven or the kingdom of God into the world of matter. The world of matter both visible and invinsible was created by servants of God under the command of God so that the human spirit seeds can have the possibility of development from an uncounscious seed to the likeness of the images of God.

Just like sparks fly off from an amber or bubbles sprout from a heated water at a precise temperature, so do spirit germs constantaly get ejected from the last plane of the spirtual into the world of matter. Germs whose drive or longing has not ripened, something analogous to reaching a specific temperature remain as spirt germs in heaven, the kingdom of God. Thus strange as it may sound, we were created because we uncounsciously sent out a petition to God, not in words but by the nature of the emanations that comes from the uncouscious residues. It is in the various planes of the world of matter that they have the opportunity to transform from an uncounscious spirit seed into a personality with a human spiritual form. The step by step process of how the spirt germ sinks into the world of matter, how it is cloaked in the various planes and how finally it recieves a physical cloak or body in the womb of a  woman can be explained to the minutest detail but that may not be necessary now and probably will cause confusion.

Thus to answer your question, the human spirit was not in existence before creation. He developed from a spirt germ and spirt germs came into existence only at the last plane of the spiritual world. Human spirts who developed their self counsciousness according to the will of God will return back to the kingdom of God as a self counscious human spirit. Those who developed their self counsciousness in contradiction to the will of God will loose this self counsciousness, and revert back to spirit germs, a process refered to as spirtual death or effacement from the book of life. If you also follow my explanations above, you will decipher that man was in existence before he was born on earth for the first time and that happened around 1.8 million years ago. All human beings who are presently on earth have been here atleast seven times in various earthly incarnations. There are other parts of the the world of matter where fresh huuman spirit germs go for their development. Our earth has already passed its middle cycle and that makes it impossible for new spirit germs from heaven to incarnate here. There are other earth-like planets in other physical universes where fresh human spirits are incarnated. But it is not the purpose of this discussion to give detailed insight into this and I will leave it. Besides, what is happening in other universes have no spiritual benefit to us leaving in our own physical universe. Someday, when a human spirt has developed in the sense of the laws of God, the gates of heaven will open up for him, and from such a hight, he or she can then survey, the incomprehensible magnitude of creations of God below the spiritual creation. He will also percieve inwardly and through higher spiritual guides the vastness of creations above the spiritual creation, and how small he is in comparison to what is above him. His guides may permit him a radiated picture of a primordial being and when he sees that just one primordial beign can hold our entire milky way galaxy in the palm of his hands , then his place in creation will become clearer. The claim by men that are God or can develop into God or are parts of God cannot be taken seriously by one who really knows.

Now I stated that the drive or urge for existencce is hardwired in the spirit seed. You can even in physical enviroment see examples of inherent drive or urge or desire in an uncounscious thing. A mango seed for instance is uncounscious but is hardwired intrinsically to become a mango tree once the appropriate environmet is given. It intrinsically follows the process of germination, growth and fructification without being counscious of it. A human zygote for example is uncounscious but the genetic program it inherited from its parents propels it through the various stages of embryogenesis, birth, cry etc. If you are married, I will advise you to be around when your wife will deliver and watch closely, the instinctive actions of a new born including the instinctive seeking for the mothers n.ipp.le, then certain things may become clear. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I agree with you, how can the uncreated be [b]longing [/b]to exist from an unconcious state.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Personally, i do not buy this "unformed radiations" concept because it would mean that before creation of individual humans, they were already in existence as individual "radiations" of God (whatever that means) that can individually and independently desire for existence. I do not buy that at all.

In my view, the only life form that can desire for existence is the only thing in existence and that is the creative life force itself, the creator. It's desire for bring one form of existence or the other to manifest is the only driving factor that brings everything into existence.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Please explain, how can the uncouncious be longing for existence, where was a man before creation, are you saying we were all longing to exist here on earth, before birth as well. How?

0
Avatar
Newbie

Achebe's contemporaries would still know that Achebe can write after his works have been destroyed, but if his works are not recreated quickly and they are neglected for generations, his ability would seize to exist together with the expressions, because they would have been forgotten by the new generation of sentient beings, and he being still alive or dead would have made little or no difference.

Conclusion, an unexpressed ability exists only as mere potential until it is brought to reality via physical expression. A cat might possess the ability to sing and write poems, but until that ability is physically expressed and witnessed, that ability does not exist. It will remain just a mere, unprovable, unobservable potential. IMHO.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi Jenwitemi. Thanks for your response. My point is that an ability and an expression of an ability are not one and the same thing. An expression or conformation is an effect of an ability but not the ability itself. If for example, the novels of Chinua Achebe are destroyed, the ability to be an author remains with Chinua Achebe. He can decide to produce more novels in future and can also decide not to. I also dare say that Chinua Achebe is already an author even before he wrote his first novel "Things fall Apart". Anyone who has been blessed to engage in creative activities either in science or in arts may understand why I say that Achebe is already an author even before his first novel. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Thanks Sarmy. If an actor has the ability to act, then he is an actor whether or not he produces a work of art.  The main point is that such a one is capable of acting and he will produce a work of art if he wants and willnot if he does not want. Thus whether or not he produces a work of art depends on if he wills so. Now coming to God, it lies in his omnipotence to decide to create or not to create. In the radiations of God lies all that is necessary for creations to spring forth. But these radiations of God cannot take on form and become creations except God wills so. Husband and wife is a relationship and not an ability. Creation is a very big word. Awareness that God created us is not the same as God created us. Thus, until we came into existence, we are just an unformed radiation of God but it takes an act of will of God to give conformation to these unformed radiations, hence our coming into being. Besides there are several other creations of God that came into existence before us. Thus even at the time we did not exist, other higher beings existed and these higher beings were created by God. God does not need his creations but his creations is absolutely dependent on God. It is the uncounscious longing for existence in these radiations of God that GOD answered to by bringing all creations into existence. It is the incomprehensible living love that is in God that permitted the miracle of creation. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi Deep Sight, please take it easy on Jenwitemi, these things are difficult to explain, personally I'm trying my best not to offend one's faith.

Yes, the one who created existed before the creating just like a man first make a move in marrying a woman but the act of the marriage makes him the husband if not he will remain a bachelor. I think this is what Jenwitemi meant (that we made each other, this does not mean we created God per se but the singular act of making us made God as well)

0
Avatar
Newbie

Remember He created us for His pleasure, so who needed the pleasure or enjoyment or delight.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi m_nwankwo, thanks for the submission. However, God's ability to create will not have allowed him to be without creating so He had to create and the reason he created us.

Would you call a man an Actor if he cannot act when he has every opportunity to act?

A man who is not married will not be recognised as a husband but a bachelor no matter the ability in him, he needs to marry first

In this case, we are like the wife and He's like the busband, He married us by creating us and the name "God that created us" came into being

0
Avatar
Newbie

From Jenwitemi

This is very good. I would expand that and say that maybe the universe is god. It is infinite, created itself, all around us and created us. We are in it and of it and just now beginning to start to understand it, just as we are starting to understand ourselves.

However, the universe has been around billions of years before the earth was formed and will continue long after the earth is consumed by the sun. We humans have only been in existence for a mere nano second in the timescale of the whole universe. Why did god (if he exists) take so long to bring us (homo sapiens) into his creation?

0
Avatar
Newbie

Thanks for your kind words. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

^^^ Brilliant as always. Accepted.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi Deepsight. Yes, what does the painting is the ability and not the expression of the ability. Thus one who has the abilty to paint or the ability to produce engineering works is an artist or an engineer. But even this remains a very crude analogy for in these earthly examples, the abilty was acquired or developed, presuppossing that at some time the one who is an artist today is not one several years ago. With respect to God, the ability has no beginning and no end for it is living in God. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi M_Nwankwo.

Would you describe a person who has the ability to paint but has never painted at all as an artist?

Would you describe me as an engineer merely because the ability to study and apply engineering resides in me?

0
Avatar
Newbie

He could have created anything else to serve the purpose of us being in existence, So yes, we need Him

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi Deepsight and Sarmy. My view is that the above statements are not entirely correct. God is the creator, not because he created creations but because the living ability to create is in God. Whether or not, this ability to create is expressed (creations) or unexpressed (no creations) have no bearing to the ability to create. The ability to create is not the same thing with the expression of the creative ability that is in God. Thus God is the creator whether or not he expresses his creative ability. Since the creative ability is in God, it is also irrelevant whether his creatures percieves his existence or not. A crude analogy may suffice. Daylight did not exist because the eyes and the visual cortex can percieve it rather it exists because of the sun and its effect on the blue planet. Thus if one suddenly regains his sight and sees daylight for the first time, it does not mean that there was no daylight all the time that he is blind. Similarly if one is to go blind and cannot percieve daylight, then daylight did not cease on the day he has gone blind. This claim that all are God and God is  all is wrong in my view. People are confusing the sun and its rays. I challenge anybody who says he is a God to give me a step by step insight/DESCRIPTION on the origin and evolution of our physical universe, not to mention, the spirtitual and the divine worlds. Stay blessed.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Mr. Jenwitemi got it wrong because he expressly and repeatedly stated that without the recognition of God by created beings, then God does not exist. That is wrong because -

  1.If the creator DID create the created: that would remain true REGARDLESS of whether the created beings know of or recognise their creator. For crying out loud, this is so bleeding obvious as it is the case with animals - they do not regognise the concept of a transcendental creator, do they? Now would this in any way vitiate the creator's existence? It would not. So why would the non-recognition of the creator by sentient beings vitiate the creator's existence? Recall that Mr. Jenwitemi was so intrepid as to make the frankly comical assertion that the Solar System did not exist until humans began to observe it. Justify that.

  2. Being a creator is differnet from existing as a deity or spirit being. Just as surely as being a husband is different from existing as a man. I am not married: and yet i exist, do i not? ? ?

0
Avatar
Newbie

Inserted in red above: is an adjustment i believe reflects more correctly the truth.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I do get your point, I think what he's trying to explain is that for example, if a man is yet to marry a woman, though he's a man but he's yet to assume the title of a husband, so the man marries the woman and the marriage makes him a husband.

Likewise, a creator without a creation can exist as a different [b]personality [/b]but not as a creator, just like a man who is yet to get a woman can not be reffered to as a husband, that's why Jenwitemi said both the creator and the creation created each other like man and woman both made themselves husband and wife.

This is what I think he meant.

Not that God does not exist without His creation but that He can not be referred to as such without His concious creation

0
Avatar
Newbie

Dear Sarmy, I do not know whether you and Mr. Jenwitemi are on the same page.

If i do not marry a woman, i am not a husband.

That does not mean that if i do not marry a woman then i do not exist.

Two different things. I sense you recognise this simple distinction, but Mr. Jenwitemi simply doesn't get it.

I had tried to explain it earlier -

0
Avatar
Newbie

guys, why make God an overly complex cosmic entity just because we cannot figure out why he has a mole on his nose, It becomes a divine mystery only to be believed without question.

0
Avatar
Newbie

it appears u re the only person on nairaland that knows about GOD!

0
Avatar
Newbie

It seems people will find it difficult to comprehend this idea of a creator who even though has created other creations but will not be a creator until aknowledge, that may be difficult to understand

I think if you are talking from the perspective of us in the physical plane, if we all believe there is no God then there will be no God to us even though He exist in another dimention

I think thats the gist.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Because we are a very crucial functioning parts/expressions of God serving the function that you yourself already mentioned in your post. We are vastly important to God because we are IT, as well as it is US. Through us, God can be.

0
Avatar
Newbie

This is just brilliant!

0
Avatar
Newbie

GOD needs us to shows his workings, God created us out of love, to see himself amongst men, doing wonderful stuffs., he created us to fellowship with us, who are we that he is mindful of,

GOD needs us, for we carry in us the evidence that God exists,

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ Sarmy -

I can't start this all over again. Jenwitemi's serial delusions have already been duscussed in-toto here -

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-459287.0.html

0
Avatar
Newbie

Hi Deep Sight, do you think He created us because He needed us and we needed not to have been created but he chose to and should solely responsible for all things or we both exists together as one and therefore co-responsible

0
Avatar
Newbie

If the creator actually needed to create us and He made us, therefore we could not have created him as he would have been existing before creating us, so it's either He created us or we both exist together as one from the start.

But to say that both the creator and the created are inseparable, can you expand this a little more, that seems to be the main problem regarding our existence here on earth, could this mean that "I and my father are one" is applicable to all men as in our relationship with God.

Lack of understanding of our real identify seems to be the root cause of all problems,

0
Avatar
Newbie

Jenwitemi's illogical fantasies again?

Maybe we can resolve it this way for you: if God did not create anything: then God would not be a creator. In other words he would not be referred to as a creator. Indeed there would be nothing and nobody to refer to him as such. Thus the act of creating is what makes him a creator. It is not what makes him EXIST ab-initio.

The fact of God's being a creator is ALTOGETHER different from HIS EXISTENCE - his existence NOT contingent on whether he creates anything or not.

So for example if YOU create works of art you are an artist. This does not mean that if you do not create works of art then you do not exist. That would be a ludicruous line of thinking. Its that simple.

0
Avatar
Newbie

1)If God had not made us, we would not have existed to be driving ourselves nuts with all these unproven mythological crap that go with religions, and not be beaten ourselves in the head with books arguing back and forth on whose idea of God is right or wrong.

2)No, man can't miss anything when man does not exist.

3)If we had not been created, there would have been no "someone" talking about what was missed. There would have been nobody to have died in wars, no famine to experience, nor would there have been enemies to have been killed by. There would have been nothing.

4)I am quite with you on that one.

5)You just spoke my language, right there.

My input is very clear on this one. We were created by the creator because the creator God needed to create us. Without God, there is no us, and without us there is no God to talk about.  The creator and the created are one inseparable unit in an eternal dance of creation. They both create each other, thus they need each other for existence.

0
Avatar
Newbie
Your answer
Add image

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.