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Hell Fire Does Not Exist According To Jehovah's Witnesses. Is That True?

Hey Guys both Muslim and Christian,Does Hell fire Exist?i'm seating in front of my house on sunday when some Jeovan withess come to preach for me and we started talking at the end of the talking they are telling me that Hell fire does not exist and God does not have Plan to put anyone in hell fire and we started Argument and they ask me if i have ever come accross any where in the bible that God says sinners we go to hell fire and they also ask me that i can not have children and just because they offend me and throw them in the fire thats is not possible they end up convicing me that hell fire does not exist then i started thinking that which bible does orther churches read that make them say hell fire exist?because i use to watched some christian film where people who do Bad things are put in Hell fire ?

if Hell Fire Exist t ,which chapter and Verse is it in the bible ?still have more to post here.

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keep posting up sh^t , judegement day is close, keep fronting

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By gum, you're right. I don't know how I missed it. I'll get on it now.

I'd like to apologise before hand for breaking your post into parts - I've found that it's the easiest way to address the contents of posts.

No problem, but I'm sure you'd understand if I mention that I am, naturally, wary of a response to my post that, rather than answering my actual questions, responds to what another thinks are issues behind my words. That is not to say, though, that it wouldn't address my points.

If my image is distorted, I have only the spokepersons (both the books and the human agents) of God to blame.

The first (omniscience) is what I understand the word to mean; the latter isn't. I will, however, accept your definition of that attribute of God. By the way, I don't think that verses actually support the view that the omnipotent Christian God has set boundaries for himself: the verses neither say that nor allude to that fact.

By any definition of freewill, it is untrue, in my opinion, that every person's will is absolute to their selves and cannot be enroached upon. It is the sign of human hubris to suppose that a person is somehow above the influences of his or her society, zeitgeist, the state of the mind and condition of the brain, and many other factors.

I think it is absurd because the Bible - particularly the Old Testament - says otherwise.

Most Witches don't pray to the devil.

I understand; however, you have to understand that good is relative and that many will, as a matter of principle, choose other Gods and philosophies that aren't the Christian one, because those are the ones that they "know" are good. It is - as I've attested over and over again - not just nor is it love to condemn them to eternal torment for sincerely held and honestly chosen ideoligies.

I think my question or what I was hinting towards wasn't any of those; it was something more along the lines of since Christians assert God is omniscient and omnipotent she knew and created the conditions necessary for the disobedience in Genesis. Also, God wouldn't have had to "enroach on the freewill" of the humans in Eden for them to have chosen good, anymore than the presence of a parent enroaches the freewill of a doubtful child. In fact, all God would have had to do was to show up before or during the serpents conversation with Eve (that, or not even put the tree there). No, to be logically consistent we have to accept that the outcome had to have been part of the plan.

Not since the Old Testament, that is.

I don't see how and I don't see anything that shows that to be so.

An omniscient God could not possibly be expecting something that is known wouldn't happen. Unless, of course, there's some kind of delusion at play.

Now, let's assume that human beings are indeed spirits possessing a soul and that the spirit is eternal, it still doesn't follow that the punishment for an eternal being has to be eternal. There is no absolutely no reason to logically assume or conclude that an eternal being has to be in the same state of grace or punishment for eternity. Furthermore, Christian theology has taught us, in its teachings on Lucifer and his cohorts, and other spiritual matters, that it is not the case that an eternal being remains in the same state infinitely.

First, for most of the human species, time has been rather short. Second, many who have indeed atoned for wrong actions will still be condemned to an eternal torture. Finally, I have understood that you do believe that humans only have the relatively short life span to choose the Christian doctrine, but I still don't see why it is that way. If human life is just one very, very limited aspect of our being, then one would have to wonder why an omniscient, omnipotent God who some have claimed is omni-benevolent would create conditions that ensure the better part of most of his beloved creatures' being is spent getting tortured with no chance for mercy due to sincere remorse.

Because I haven't seen the plus side and the whole is necessary for an honest choice.

I know that there are many reasons people reject both the Christian God and the Christian doctrine, not just a reason.

Then it may become necessary for yiy share adequately what and how you know what you know.

I still haven't seen any reason to accept that as true.

No problem. Once again, thanks for taking the time.

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@Bobbyaf,

I would have obliged you the 'favour', but we have been there before. Your answer to my question as to How long exactly you think the lake of fire will last received a reply of "How would I know?" There's just no contest there - because if you don't know, what would be the use of arguing or debating the translations and original manuscripts with you?

You're trying to reharsh the debate that has already been tired-out in the other thread on this subject; which is not taking us anywhere, and I'm least interested in that.

My concern in this present one is simple: If you use II Pet. 3:10 to identify the EARTH as the LAKE OF FIRE, then my question is:

Are the HEAVENS also the same location as the LAKE OF FIRE?

Why leave out the heavens that are mentioned in the same connection with the earth as is evident in verses 7 and 12? People who have been holding on to the idea that the earth is the place of the lake of fire are reading their own thoughts into Scripture. And if I was greatly mistaken, then I wonder why they really haven't been able to deal with the mention of the heavens in the same connection.

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@ Stimulus

Can you do me a favour?

1. Can you locate all those texts that suggest that the lake of fire will be indefinite?

2. After you have located those texts can you compare them to the original transcript in Greek and say if any of those translations fit the original transcript or not. In other words can you be 100% certain that the expressions you utillise to support an everlasting hell fire are honest translations of the original?

Looking forward to your research.

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Hell’s a fabrication

The concept of hell is something that was created in the hearts and minds of the authors of your Bible and Koran. Before you were informed of what and where hell was, it never crossed your mind to even think about it. So, within the pages of your scriptures hell was born. Just as a God could not exist without the devil, heaven could not exist if there wasn’t a hell.

So where did hell come from? It didn’t exist in Adam’s, Noah’s, nor Abraham’s time. It is something that was fabricated so that they could capitalize off of your fear.

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@Bobbyaf,

I suspected you would quickly reference II Pet. 3:10 in your reply. However, if we're going to read what it says without favouring a partial view, here's another look at the context:

(a) that verse mentions the HEAVENS as well the EARTH.

(b) reading from verse 7 shows clearly that the HEAVENS also will be on fire:

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,

reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

(c) See verse 12 as well:

                             "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,

                              wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved,

                              and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

To those who are quick to quote II Pet. 3:10 to argue for the earth being the lake of fire, my question is:

           Are the HEAVENS also the same location as the LAKE OF FIRE?

You cannot quickly use that verse to teach that the EARTH itself is the lake of fire, whereas vs. 7 mentions the HEAVENS in the same connection as what is stated in verse 10.

I do not find the word 'UNTIL' remotely suggested there; and those introducing that idea are doing so simply to force their own interpretation into Scripture.

That being the case, I do not see the idea of an "UNTIL" even when read contextually.

Since you do not know, try not suggesting what Scripture does not teach.

I figured you would tow that line of response. God's love and justice does allow Him to pour out His wrath on evil; and any idea of euphemizing His indignation is simply humanistic reasoning.

I repeated my question for your repeated assertion.

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@ Stimulus

2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

Whatever verse that utilises the word "unquenchable", in other words the word used means that no one will be able to stop the fire from doing its work until its work is complete.

Most christians including you, are likely to use the word un-quenchable as meaning an indefinite burning, when in truth it means nothing of the sort when it is lined up contextually.

How would I know?

Can't recall ever using the word slight in my response. What I recall explaining is that God's love and justice cannot allow Him to unduly punish sinners.

See the above response for the same question you already posed above.

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@Bobbyaf,

Where in Scripture does it say that the earth itself is the lake of fire?

Where in the verses offered does it say: "UNTIL"??

How long exactly will the lake of fire last - one day, two weeks, a month??

Does the Bible present the punishment with the lake of fire as a slight punishment just because God is LOVE?

Where in Scripture does the Bible say that earth is the lake of fire?

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@ KAG,

i had two posts; i dont think you read the prior post, perhaps it would answer some of your questions.

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Sorry for the delay. No excuses.

That's fair enough, but I'm sure you'll understand when I say that it still doesn't explain how love and eternal torture aren't mutually exclusive.

How does that work? What I mean is, why woudl every man after Adam be in the image of Adam and not God? Furthermore, if everyone after Adam was sinful (that doesn't seem to be true though, because Enoch was sinless, if I recall correctly) then doesn't it stand to reason that they, except the chosen, are all being totured for eternity too?

That's a rather cynical view of morality if you don't me saying so. If pressed, I'd point out that morality isn't "determined" (morality isn't usually a conscious decision by people) by a creator, but by we humans. However, your point is taken and I get what you mean.

And we get to the rub of it. That, in my opinion, is neither just nor good. A person that chooses to lie for the good of another surely cannot be seen in the same light as someone that commits murder - it's usually considered insane to view things in that light. However, to get back to the main point, a being that tortures a being for infinity for lying, especially if the lie was for a good cause (and I can give you examples of what I mean by lying for a good cause) doesn't sound like a loving being.

Not to be a dick, but considering that the Christian God has committed murders too "holy" must have a meaning I haven't encountered.

I haven't come across any one that fills that bill, Christian or otherwise.

Fair enough.

Or one rejects the "offer" because one is sceptical about the claims, aware of the things that don't add up, and wary of the "good news". Really, there are many reasons one would reject what you call a free gift (take my gift or I'll kill you!) and many of them are no different from why you've rejected other religions.

So there is hope for the dead, Jesus wasn't necessarily the only way, etc?

Good to hear. Thanks for taking the time out. I'm still rather interested in how anyone can resolve eternal torture with love, though.

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@KAG,

Ok, I know where you are coming from. And i can see where your grouses mainly lie and i'd try to focus on them to the best of my ability to explain issues.

I wont really answer directly word for word what you wrote because it'd just drag endlessly. Rather i'd try to answer the issues behind what you wrote.

Let me explain the issues i percieve you have grouses with.

First, God's omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.

I'd try to paint a picture of God for you, and correct the image (distorted as it is) that you have of Him. As regards God's omniscience, try to see it as God being aware of what will happen before it does, while as regards his omnipotence, see it as it his; all-powerful - but understand it in this context; he has set boundaries for himself.

the first boundary is the fact that he has 'given' the earth to man. Ps. 115;16 "The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, but the earth He has given to the sons of men" Also Gen 1;26-30, Gen. 2:15

the other boundary is that he gave man a free will.

Now getting into more detail the issue of choice. God created beings with free wills. humans have free wills, angelic beings have free wills. God has his own will as well. see each person's will as a sphere of influence. every person's will can be absolute to himself and cannot be encroached upon. however you could have the two spheres coming in contact when a person chooses God or chooses satan such that God's will becomes the person's will or Satan's will becomes the person's will as the case may be. Now, here on earth spirits cannot encroach on a man's free will, but fellow men can. that is why an evil human being is of more threat to me than an evil spirit - because he is man, and can encroach on my will or sphere of influence (but that's something i don't want to get into now)

God cannot encroach in earthly affairs without a man's permission. That might seem absurd but it's the truth. That is why we pray. We pray so that we can allow God to 'encroach' in our affairs by His might. The same principle applies in witchcraft; some people pray to the devil and give him a gateway in their lives so he can operate.

However the down side is that having a choice does not exempt from consequences. No. the fact that you can choose what you want, inherently places a responsibility on you. and confers almost by definition, the need to act responsibly and choose good. You can easily understand this from human societies and human liberties, whilst we are free and can choose what we want, when we choose to do wrong, we face the consequences.

When God made man, He made him innocent, naive and placed choices before man. God put man on earth and effectively handed it over to him as man's domain. You say since God is all-powerful, why didn't he make him choose good? or since he is all-knowing, why did He make man since He knew man would fall? However what you should remember is that we are made in the image of God, each man is a world unto himself and can autonomously determine his sphere not being encroached. For God to be fair, he had to make man, and he had to make him have the ability to choose irrespective of the outcome (ie rejection). Do you think GOd was happy that man didn't choose him, of course not. that was why it greived his loving heart when man rejected Him. God is not some angry avenger out to 'get' everyone who disobeys Him. No. he is a God who is interested in fellowshipping with his creation. and the decison to choose wrong affected God just as much, if not more, than it affected man.

For a choice to be that, a choice, God's omnipotence and omniscience cannot be involved; those are God's attributes not man's. He wanted and expected the man to choose life (the tree of life) but man did not. (and we can indeed say he could not). However, where God's omnipotence and omniscience plays in is when he provides a remedy for the fall. Ordinarily, in a level playing field of justice, man is, or should be, condemned for disobeying. but God in His foreknowledge had provided a way out. And that way out was ultimately played out years later in the death and ressurection of Christ. How you would know that God could not influence man's outcome because 'his hands were tied' (by man's free will) is when you understand that at one point, GOd 'regretted that he had made man'.

So now the other thing is; fine, there is punishment, but why does it have to be 'eternal'? human beings are spirits pocessing a soul and living in a body. spirits are by nature eternal, they don't die. SO if there has to be a punishment for a spirit, it has to be an eternal punishment. A man has a long time (the space of a lifetime) to avert the eternal consequences of wrong actions and within that time frame, GOd forgives, and he forgives, and he forgives (i'm talking from both knowledge and experience). I have known His love and mercy and He does forgive, but like i said i'll say again, his forgiveness is within a time frame; and that time frame is a man's life. Once that life leaves the body, a man must face judgement.

So what i'd advise is, rather than focus on the potential for punishment and the possibilty of being lost, why not focus on the plus side and see that, there is really no reason for any body to be lost. we know the real reason why people reject God and his provision (i don't really want to get into it now). what i usually tell people "if you know what i know, you'd be in the same position i am". God is indeed love, but there are many things we have to seek understanding for, and i understand your concerns. My goal is to answer as many questions as i can when the objective is knowledge and not mere arguements.

I have to go home; i'd answer the other issues when i get home.

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Not so much a point as a question: how can eternal torment be reconciled with love? Does God forgive? Apparently, not after one has died and sometimes not if the leader of one's tribe or society has been "bad".

Also, I was careful to specify that humans can and do show clemency when "when there is a chance for repentance and rehabilitation". The idea of eternal punishment for grossly evil things like not belonging to the right religion or telling a white lie for example, leaves neither the opportunity for redemption nor does it even seem justified. Justice is meting out punishment for a crime or wrong fairly, singly and with the aim of hopefully changing the person or keeping society safe. Those aren't done with omniscience in the human system, but they are usually effective and fair.

That's part of the point, why have a time limit? A time limit that condemns, once again, the vast majority, even the contrite, to infinite, unending punishment. Sounds neither like justice nor love.

Asking a question.

The point of the question was why would an omnipotent God need to have "himself" die temporarily after billions of years of earth time and thousands of years of human life to save humans from something he either ochestrated or knew was going to happen? It all seems rather melodramatic and unnecessary. I have read the Bible, but I got lost somewhere between God is love and damn you all to hell. Also, and I hope this isn't off-topic, what exactly is/are the sins moral humans (that is, the moral non-christians) have committed that they deserve to be punished for? And are children included in the whole deserving punishment thing, too?

No, it isn't enough. First, why can't humans live above "sin"? There have been many incidents and reporst of people who have lived moral and blameless lives. They managed it. Furthemore, without really understanding what sin means to you, it is arguable that people could possibly need to be punished for their "sins"; however, I don't see how eternal punishment can be a justified punishment.

I have.

Not quite. I meant something along the lines of "Why would an omnipotent God need to have "himself" die temporarily after billions of years of earth time and thousands of years, etc?" Also, he really doesn't have to make humans puppets to get his point or across or to give a better chance for choice (remember, people are sceptical for a reason).

May I suggest that your analogy doesn't quite fit the situation as I've heard it told. It's more like alledgedly discovering the cure for AIDS, after alledgedly creating or causing AIDS. Then, after pointedly refusing to divulge how I got the cure and to show actual evidence of the cure (I tell people to just have faith), I go through a bizzare and paradoxical procedure that involves most of the intended target not even knowing that the cure exists. Did I also mention that after marketing the drug, the effects of the cure on people can't be distinguished from those who haven't been cured nor from those who used the drugs of other healers I assure you are quacks. Is it illogical? Perhaps.

Let's just say for the omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient deity he has being alledged to be, he's doing a rather poor job of not wanting anyone to perish.

The statement or question sought to explore the concept of an omniscient God doing an implausible deed to save people from a relatively intangible thing and doing it in a way that elicits rejection by a good number and is unknown by others.

You mean the reasons like: "wait, where's the evidence for such an extraordinary claim", "that makes absolutely no sense, why would God have to sacrifice himself to himself" and all those others that point to the disreprancies aren't real reasons and are just conjured up out of spite or something?

Maybe you should look up the meaning of omniscient. According to Christian theology (at least the one that preaches omni-deity), God knows the outcome of everything, knew even before creating humans what would happen with humans and knows/knew the end result of every human - do you see where I'm going with this? - and generally planned it all. It stands to reason, logically, that if hell was planned for the Devil and his followers (by the way, by follower, I thought you meant demons), then God did plan and design for humans (the majority as the case turns out) to end up in hell. That brings us back to my initial question - how can that be reconciled with love?

By the way, would the people who didn't reject the Christian God but ended up committing some sin or the other before death be considered followers of the Devil?

I wasn't; it was based on primarily on interpreting "followers" as demons.

I want discussion and answers. Read into that what you will.

Your response was clear, but, like I mentioned, didn't really address my question. Also, I just quickly re-read my responses, they were all related to what you wrote.

I'm a struggling atheist; my questions - at least most of them - have been relevant and related to both the thread and your post; I'm always interested in gaining knowledge; and my perspective is, while I have seen no way to reconcile eternal torment with omniscience and omnibenevolence, maybe some other person could attempt it or point out a way before I consider it a closed subject (in my mind).

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You have all been knocked out of the game.

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God has set limits within which a man can recieve forgiveness and therefore escape indefinite punishment. that limit is called 'time'. within the human time frame, a man can obtain forgiveness. but once a man dies, he has lost his capacity to ask for forgiveness, and thus brings upon himself eternal damnation. Heb.9.27 "People die once, and after that they are judged"

why would Jesus have had to die to save sinful men? Are you actually asking a question or trying to sound wise? I've explained why Jesus had to die; if you bothered to read the scriptures i put it would help. Let me restate; man sinned, and deserved to be punished. God, who is rich in mercy, knew that man, in his own natural effort, can never live above sin, therefore he sent his son who lived a sinless life and on the cross he bore man's sin and therefore the consequences of our sin ie punishment for our sins. But because he is God, death could not hold him captive and He rose again breaking the power of sin and death and setting free from sin those who beleive in Him. Is that enough? you might need to read ROmans, Hebrews, Ephesians to understand the details. i just paraphrased the whole thing cos that's the whole christian message.

Isn't the Christian GOd all-powerful? Meaning what? I dont get your drift - do you mean he should in his 'all powerfulness' make us all holy or make us obey him or what? He made human beings, not puppets, that they should choose Him of their own free will.

Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?

Wow. I'm baffled by this statement. Let me give an analogy, you discover a drug that cures AIDs, then when you are about to market the drug, it was brought to your notice that some people will not buy the drug. Because some people (as always) will doubt the drug's potency, will you decide not to market the drug? How illogical is that?

Morever, how many times do we have to say that God DOES NOT want anyone to perish. 2Pet3;9. Even if it was only one sinner on earth, He would still have come down to die. your statement is severely flawed; the fact that some people choose to reject him doesn't mean that He shouldnt do the right thing. it only shows that people choose to reject him without cause conjuring up reasons when there isn't any.

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We do, however, complain when "evil", guilty men are punished indefinitely when there is a chance for repentance and rehabilitation. It seems the human system, despite its lack of omniscience, has figured out somethings the Christian God hasn't.

Why? Why would Jesus have had to die to save "us sinful men"? Isn't the Christian God all-powerful? Also, isn't the "sacrifice" a tad redundant considering the vast majority (and we're talking billions and billions) of people will end up in hell?

If hell wasn't originally prepared for humans, then God isn't omniscient. Is that a fair assumption?

I most certainly do not understand. I hope this oesn't come across as hostile or anything, but your response did not really answer my question.

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However, that is a small part of the story, the greater part of the story is that in Rom 3: 23 -26 and Eph. 2:1-7. In the former verse, Jesus, who was sinless, was shown to have died as a propitiation for us sinful men, and took upon himself our sin (2Cor 5: 21, Isaiah 53:6) and thus the punishment we deserve, so that we who have beleived in him are justified and declared righteous and free from guilt and condemnation. Also, see John 3:16.

So although God is Love and full of mercy, He is also a God of Justice.

God has done so much for us in Christ Jesus that the question of hell should not even arise if we respond properly to the gospel message in faith and obedient acceptance of his gift of grace. It is not God's will that any man should perish (2Pet 2:9, John 3:17). Hell was not originally prepared for man but for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41) However, people who reject God's salvation declare themselves enemies of God and willingly remain followers of the devil thereby earning the same punishment (John 3: 18 - 21, Eph. 2:1-7)

Hope you understand. Pray you accept His gracious gift of life. Cheers.

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Now that we've established that hell is like a lake of fire or something, and, I'm assuming, people will be cast there for like eternity, can somebody explain how that doesn't contradict the idea of love, especially in an apparently omniscient being?

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Dead ryt, stimulus. Dead ryt.

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Hi @Viable,

Did the Bible describe the lake of fire in Rev. 20:10 as an event and not a place? Were the devil and his rebellious host cast into an event or into a place?

Where did the Bible say "UNTIL" it has consumed every sinner, when in fact it says day and night for ever and ever?

We don't read of what you described in Isaiah 24:1-6. The 6th verse says: "Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left." The earth and lake of fire are not the same place; nobody is left who is cast into the lake of fire.

The Jehovah Witnesses are doubly wrong. The lake of fire is described in Scripture as a place into which the devil and his rebellious host will be cast. That event occurs at the final judgement.

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RE-HELL FIRE DOES NOT EXIST ACCORDING TO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. IS IT TRUE?           I want to address this question from the biblical point of view. Hell fire is an event and not a place as so many christian denominations do teach today. One pastor said that sinners will be burning forever and ever that is not what the bible says. The bible says unquenchable fire, that is a fire which nobody can put off untill it consume every sinner. that means that sinners will be burnt up with fire which noone can put off. see Isaiah 24;1-6 and jude verse 7 where the bible mentioned the destruction of sodom and gomorrha as example of eternal fire. The question for anyone who says that hell fire will burn forever, the question for such person is , is sodom and gomorrha still burning till today? So if the Jehovah's Witnesses told you that hell fire is not a place as many christians teaches today, they are right but if they taught you that GOD will not punish sinners to death with fire, they are wrong,

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JVI - Jack Van Impe.

I enjoy Hal Lindsey as well.

HELL BELLS should make careless souls think - very revealing.

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JVI on TBN? Isn't that supposed to be JCTV or better yet HELL'S BELLS on TBN, the programme is very revealing. U've got to see it.

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wow! didnt know that.lets wait , The judgement day is starting to scare me oo, heaven is real, hell is real, yall nee to watch JVI on Tbn

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Matt. 3:10 - And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matt. 3:12 - Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matt. 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt. 13:49 & 50 - So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. (see verses 44 -48 ).

Rev. 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You can follow the discussion here, or visit the thread to read what others have debated on the subject: Hell Fire: A Twisted Truth Untangled

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