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Is Christian Tithing A Salvational Issue?

There appears to be a lot of controversy amongst Christians about the subject of tithing. But why is it scuh a hot issue? Is it because;

1) It has got salvidic potential and anyone does not tithe is jeopardising their salvation?

2) It is the mainstay of the income of most churches?

3) As a doctrinal issue, the bible is equivocal about it?

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None of the references "confirms" any orgin of tithe for you - that was all the point. You didn't need to try and force that inference into the references, which was why I kept asking you to point out where you read the "origin" in them.

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Okay, no worries. Take care and enjoy.

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Where does the evidence reference show the "confirm" that you read into it?

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Again you infer. Did the references "confirm" that Abraham was taught about tithing from Mesopatamia? How is it that is only where you find in those references? It simply said that "the ‘tenth’ was usually approximate, not exact. The practice is known from Mesopotamia, Syria-Palestine, Greece and as far to the west as the Phoenician city of Carthage". How do you connect Abraham's tithe with paganism when Melchizedek was not said to be in that connection in Scripture?

None of the references "confirms" anything about the "origin" of tithes; only that the practice was known in those places.

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You're inferring things into the reference. The references did not point to the "origin" of tithe - neither in Mesopatamia, nor at Abraham's time, nor any of the other places mentioned; nor did it say it was "confirming" it was 'pagan'. Reading pagan into it is assuming things.

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You haven't shown that tithing ORIGINATED from MESOPATAMIA; nor do the references show that it began from that place or at the time Abraham gave tithes. Please look up the word "origin" or "originate" or that cognates.

Now, have I argued anywhere to make Abraham's tithe a matter of "requirement"? If not, what was supposed to be your interjection of that idea at this point? Besides, to say that there was NO religious conotation to his tithing is quite a weak excuse which might be laughed away. I wonder why several anti-tithers with Ph.Ds have argued a religious connotation thereto. Nevermind your continued vexations, charlatans or not, where do you get your own perfectly okay tithes for Christians? You keep pointing accusing fingers for others and yet have never been able to point out your own super-scholarship from Scripture. Why has that very thing eluded you for eons?

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Personally,i don't give a rat's Bottom if people pay tithes or offerings. My only beef is they shouldn't be forced or decieved.

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It's not only in Nigeria we find unbalanced teaching, as not everyone has got it right in the USA. I do know of a few local churches in Nigeria that don't see it as a sin if someone does not 'pay' tithes (although I don't know if there's any one of them that is categorically pentecostal). And yes, the Nigerian scenario cannot be used as the only situation worldwide concerning tithes.

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Good. Pastors in the U.S and elsewhere might preach tithing as non-compulsory,but in nigeria (mostly pentecostal churches),its preached as sin if you don't pay tithes.ask your relatives at home if you may.

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@Tùdor,

Thanks for your concerns. Unfortunately, I do not argue from sentiments or the flat opinion of the general public. I'm aware that many misunderstand this issue about tithing, and in my various posts I've endeavoured to show how many anti-tithers argue with assertions that are false and very misleading.

Take, for instance, the question of volition: several anti-tithers know that tithing could be voluntary: they've said so, written and published that it is so, and point to many references that clearly state that it is precisely so. Inspite of this, they often would not remind their crowds of this fact, and will forever sing the mantra that it is "compulsory". That is scenario 1.

Now, scenario 2: I used to follow the same misleading argument by demagoguery which saw tithing as always and only "compulsory" - nothing about it being voluntary. No less so, because both at home (Nigeria) and abroad some pastors indeed have preached it as compulsory. So, I argued endlessly that the tithe was 'evil. . a fraud. . false', etc. Ironically, in my anti-tithing days I realized that condemning tithing did not make me a generous giver; and also, I witnessed the same attitude first-hand among many anti-tithing leaders that condemned even fellow pastors who dared to preach tithes. Sadly, I confess that these few anti-tithers were the most stingy of leaders I ever met in religious circles, bar none!

Scenario 3: again, I realized within a short time that many anti-tithers were lying through their teeth. I mean, how many times have they been asked about certain statements they made, and when asked for clarification, they excused those questions and immediately resorted to uncouth language and ad hominems. I know you're not inclined to Christianity (pls correct me if I'm wrong); but it was a shame when I discovered the very assertions I borrowed from these 'respected' anti-tithers were false and could not be Biblically defended. The last one that turned me around was the one that "Jews today no longer tithe" - and if you check carefully (Google if you may), you would find that this fallacy is recycled by some 'Christian' minister(s) who leave no honestly substantiated references for what they say! Whereas, I discovered to the contrary from reliable sources that Jews today still tithe - most of them from the incomes!

Enter scenario 4: all that I had previously argued as an anti-tither up until that time collapsed, and I started afresh to look at the subject objectively. My attitude also changed, and today I'm not drawn to slurring people just because of the subject of tithes. What was my surprise - I visited so many churches in the USA, listened to several other pastors from around the world where I had not visited - and amazingly, these churches or pastors clearly preach tithes as not compulsory, and yet I witnessed their congregations tithe regularly and cheerfully. I could cite some examples for you upon request. But the point is that most of the things being claimed by anti-tithers are plain irresponsible lies! That is why they cannot defend their assertions from Scripture; that is why they shy away from dialogue; that is why they won't discuss or show intelligent answers for what they claim. . . but they enjoy castigating pastors who preach tithes and then justify themselves in doing so!

Now, is it only "tithing" pastors that may get it wrong? NO. I'm not inclined to the interpretation that a Christian who does not tithe could be cursed; but I certainly don't think that anybody who preaches tithe from Malachi 3 could be damned!

Secondly, I believe that many anti-tithers themselves have made far worse damning statements against tithing and tithers - including the false idea that those who tithe are going to hell! You decide, if you can: which one is worse:

someone sending people to hell for tithing?

or

someone cursing people for not tithing?

On either side, we find people making such obviously false and ignorant statements with a zeal beyond this world; and they would justify themselves in their fallacies. Good that this thread seeks to ask if tithing is a salvific issue; and clearly it is NOT - so what are these fellows doing busying themselves with false statements on either side of the fence?

The bottom line for me is this: on either side, people make mistakes - both pro-tithers and anti-tithers. Yet, it's not my style to castigate anyone (pro- or anti-) who makes unsubstantiated and even false assertions. I would rather seek to dialogue amicably to correct misunderstandings and also promote a healthy understanding to encourage what I'm persuaded about. That does not mean I should "force" my views on anyone; and anti-tithers cannot force their views on anyone else either. It is not enough to denounce or discourage tithing; for if anti-tithers actually have nothing against tithes, they should ENCOURAGE it and stop doodling on their inconsistencies.

Cheers.

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@pilgrim

far from it,tithing in churches is'nt by your free volition

On the contrary,pastor preaches on tithe, says if you don't pay you 'rob' god quoting malachi 3 in the process. Member naturally thinks robbing god is a crime/sin (taking into consideration threats issued in malachi 3 by god). He then has no option than to pay coz he doesn't plan to steal from the lord.

Now if its by free will as you're insinuating,members should be CLEARLY told its not compulsory.

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For pastors like adeboye and oyedepo, tithing is a 'private jet' issue.

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@chukwudi44,

The definition given by the OLD (Oxford Learners Dictionary) is not the only and all-embracing definition and meaning of the word tithe - there are also other dictionaries which in their own ways, etymologies and contexts render other definitions to cover wider considerations. Could it be possible that the Ox.L.D. you quoted might have been looking at the narrow British historical definition of that word?

However, some anti-tithers have used other dictionaries and resources in writing about the subject. For instance, Russell Kelly quoted several of them:

The Encyclopedia Americana defines the general tithe as “the tenth part

of produce or other income, paid voluntarily or under the compulsion of law

for the benefit of religious institutions, the support of priests and pastors,

and the relief of those in need.”

~~ Encyclopedia Americana, 1996 ed., s.v. “tithe.”

“In the ancient Near East lie the origins of a sacred offering or payment

of a tenth part of stated goods or property to the deity. Often given to

the king or to the royal temple, the ‘tenth’ was usually approximate, not exact.

The practice is known from Mesopotamia, Syria-Palestine, Greece and as far to

the west as the Phoenician city of Carthage.”

~~ Encyclopedia of Religion, Mircea Eliad, editor, 1987, s.v. “tithe.”

“A 10th part of one’s income consecrated to God. The separation of

a certain proportion of the products of one’s industry or of the spoils

of war as tribute to their gods was practiced by various nations of antiquity.

The Lydians offered a tithe of their booty (Herod. I, 89). The Phoenicians and

Carthaginians sent a tithe annually to the Tyrian Hercules. These tithes might

be regular or occasional, voluntary or prescribed by law.”

~~ John D. Davis, ed., Westminster Dictionary of the Bible

(Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1964), s.v. “tithe.

Although Russell could not fault them, he nonetheless could not accept them for some mere incoherent excuses. But the point is simple: just as you tried to make a case for the Ox.L.D. which you quoted, could you also 'prove' that these other dictionaries and resources are no longer reliable?

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@ pilgrim

The oxford advanced learner's dictionary defines tithes as;

One tenth of the annual produce of a farm paid as a tax especially to support the church.

You can see that the tithe is not just only a a tenth but also an anual event which was restricted to just farm produce and never involved money.

Except you want to prove to me that the oxford dictionary is no longer reliable

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Pilgim For christ's sake stop being mischievous,the word tithe means a tenth.In some bible translationss what you have is a a tenth and not tithe.Any thing other than 10% cannot be called tithes.In the book of Malachi He made mention of "Tithes and offerings".Tithes and offerings are not and can never be the same.

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@chukwudi44,

Let me say this to you personally: if you want to discuss, please do. If you have nothing intelligent to say, don't assume 'pranks' into other people's posts just to placate your vast ignorance. I've studied the texts carefully before posting my replies: they stand as they are, and I can take you to the cleaners to bleach your otiose remarks if you care.

So many times I've pointed out that the Biblical tithes is not a rigid "10% only" - and anti-tithers know this for a fact! Many anti-tithers have written volumes about this and affirm that tithe is not a "strict 10%", but varies:

       ~ Russell Kelly argues that it amounted to 40%

       (how in the world he came to that is beyond reason)

       ~ the same Russell Kelly argues tithes from Numbers 31 -

       in that chapter the percentage there is a mere 0.002%

       ~ John MacArthur bellows that when someone says

       the Jews gave 10%, that is NOT correct

       ~ Jewish scholars who are in the best position to understand

       their own Jewish Law have taught that it is anything between

       10-20%

       ~ when analysing the tithe in Judaism, Jewish scholars vary the amount,

       from the first portion (terumah) to what remained, and then how the rest

       was appropriated.

You obviously are too thick to just come blow open your arrogance with such silly remarks since you have no clue what you want to argue. If you anti-tithers have nothing sensible to say, hold your otiose remarks so you don't draw out replies like this from me.

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Tithing is just another scam. According to their bible Jesus never took from his congregation. He never passed around a basket or tray to receive pledges and donations at the end of each sermon. He never asked for a payment. Nor did he ever tell his disciples to accept money for their assistance as found in Matthew 10:8-10:

“Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

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Pilgrim, how do you know tithing is NOT a salvidic issue? Any reference will be welcome. And can you show how other issue which you think are salvidic are expressly mandated in the scriptures?

When one gives to the church, what makes one a tithe and another not?

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True, but that could not be applied across board. There are indeed many Christians who do not understand so many things in the faith, and quite a handful of matured believers have certain controversies on some subjects. It's not only in Christianity you find this situation - so many other worldviews and fields of enquiry have people saying different things within the same 'coterie' (for want of a better expression).

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If there's a controversy in Christianity, it's either someone doesn't understand something or someone isn't a true Christian. Even Christ said that not everyone that claims to be a Christian is one.

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When someone says that it is NOT a Christian teaching or doctrine, we would like to know then how he agrees that it is perfectly okay for Christians to do that very thing. If Scripture has been manipulated and twisted, we also would like to know if he has done that same thing (manipulating and twisting) for his own "perfectly okay" recommendation of the same thing he condemns.

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Salvation is not based on any type of giving - call it whatever one may: tithes, contributions, donations, alms, offerings, firstfruit, seed-sowing, etc. Giving is connected with temporal as well spiritual blessings; but tithing in itself was not taught as a salvific matter as if it brings anyone to hell for failing to do so.

No; there are other types of giving which provide funding for churches.

It all depends in what context you use 'equivocal' - it definitely has several meanings, but it is not an uncertain subject.

By the way, what caught your interest on the subject?

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It is NOt a christian teaching or doctrine.

It was just smuggled into christianity at least seven centuries after the death of christ.

The scriptures tithing is preached from is actually twisted and manipulted to justify the nonsense they preach.

Biblical tithing is totally and completely different from the scam our pastors preach and define as tithes today.

Those that preach it are the ones giving christianity a bad name just becos they are out to make a quick buck.

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