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Is Elijah John The Baptist?

Plz share this view with me. I was discussing with a friend and he said John is Elija and quoted Mt 11:14. He said Elija was kept somewhere till he was reborn to be John the baptist. It is true? If it is true, is it not reincarnation? Plz share your opinions with me because I don't believe in reincarnation.

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38 answers

Shahan

Thanks so much.

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No problem my dear.

Just take your time, I will love to hear from you because I can see ur special gift of evangelization.

Thanks and remain blessed in the mighty name of Jesus Christ.

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Shahan

Am still waiting for your posting about the works of spirits as you said you will post when u are less busy.

Thanks and God bless you.

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@luckyCO! In know where do they bible in any form teach re-incarnation,but believers in such paganistic teaching always search the bible to see, if they can find any text or texts of the scripture that alludes to that.

Back to the subject matter, When angel Gabriel appeared before Zechariah to announce his having a child, a part of what he told him is these (Luke Chapter 1:16-17,"and many of the sons of Isreal will be turned back to Jehovah (Yahweh) their God, vs 17,"Also he will go before him with Elijah's spirit and power, to turn back the heart of fathers to children, and the disobidient ones to practical wisdom of righteous ones, and to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.

What does having the spirit of Elijah mean? Is no other than someone saying lets imbibe the team spirit of a particular footbal team or the other, Or a ruler to, be saying, i shall rule or govern with the spirit of a known past ruler, lets take for example, I will rule with the spirit of Murtala Mohhamed, or Tunde Idiagbon etc.Any person who knew these past rulers will clearly understand what is meant by such.

So John the baptizer did became zealous for God's work of evangelisation just like Elijah, revealing evils no hold barred just like Elijah(that undo him his sliced head on a plate) But you have to know that in nowhere was it recorded that John performed miracles like Elijah

NOTE that when John was born his parents do not say, we have given birth to Elijah, or do the rejoicing neighbours understand it to be so.

Lets have some conversation between John and persons who perceived him as Elijah in (John Chapter 1:19-22 reads "Now this the witness of John when the Jews sent forth priests and levites from Jerusalem to him to ask ask him, Who re you? And he confessed and did not deny but confessed, "I am not the Christ, "And they asked him, What then? Are you Elijah? "And he said I am Not."Are you the prophet? and he answered No.

John have spoken for himself (Sunstance sufficient)

Adios!

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shahan

It is just now I noticed that I have being using your name(Or ID) wrongly. Am sorry for that. Please accept my applogy.

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Shannan

Thanks, take your time am not in a haste. Thanks and God bless.

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Hi Shahan & TayoD (and anyone else who is interested or following),

Thank you for your responses to my take on[b] Hebrews 9:27[/b]. To be honest, it was probably a good thing that I didn't respond immediately. I've taken time to think a little and realise that if I had responded likewise (hastily & dismisively?), there's a good chance the discussion may have degenerated.

Shahan, the hastiness of you last post makes me think you answered totally out of your preconcieved notions and without recourse to scripture. Likewise TayoD, who did not even bother to question my post. Which in some ways may be better than Shahan, who questioned it on the basis of her own seemingly unretractable position.

The point (to answer your question after my posting of the 8th chapter), was to post  the chapter in question & the preceeding one, and try and make headway from there. I have no problem, if you do not want to continue the discussion, or even if you'd like to do another (just say) way. I just thought this way we could literally walk through it and anyone else who was so inclined could follow.

Our initial point of difference seems to be the frame of reference of the immediate scriptural narrative. I see it as a contrasting of the earthly and heavenly High Priesthoods. And in stating so, I don't see any reason for verse 27 of chapter 9 to suddenly switch tack and launch into a one verse discourse about the "commonality of death the once to all men". I feel this is out of step with the Epistle, chapter and narrative, while it also appears to contradict other parts of scripture (as you yourself have posted regards Enoch and Elijah and anyone else can see from the numerous accounts of people dying and been brought back to life).

So based on the chapters posted or any other from the epistle (for focus), or even the scriptures as a whole, please feel free to ask the first question.

God bless.

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Hebrews 9:1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance;

8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

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Hebrews 8: 1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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Shannon

Perhaps when I'm less busy this weekend, then I'll share with you a bit more about the sphere and operations of the spirits of the departed

Am still waiting to hear from you. Maybe u are not busy but when u are less busy I would like to hear from you more operation of evil as you said.

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@Shahan,

I've been so tied up at work this past week and been unable to post as much as I would love to. But in any case, I thought I'd shed more light on my position as earlier promised.

1 Samuel 28: I have no doubt in my heart that what Saul was dealing with was a familiar spirit and not the spirit of Samuel. The deceit of the enemy was compounded by the personal pronoun used by the spirit as well as the reference to the Word of God. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone because the devil knows and quotes God's Word very well. Do we remember how he quoted Bible verses to tempt Jesus? That the words of the spirit were truthful isn't a big deal if we remember the spirit that followed Paul around declaring truthfully that Paul was a servant of the Lord whose words should be heeded.

I wonder why God would allow the spirit of his saint to be roused from rest to partake of an act that God has forbidden. Like Apostle Paul argued, we cannot hope to promote righteousness through sinful means. So I very much doubt God will encourage sin in order to establish His will.

Hebrews 9:27

I defintely don't agree with what TV01 said concerning this scripture. His explanation is neither consistent with the entire passage nor sustained by revelation.

As I have established before, I believe the death mentioned in that verse cannot be physical death since we all know that not all men will die physically, and infact there are 2 we know who never tasted physical death.

At the same time, Hebrews 9:27 qualifies the word 'judgement' meaning that it refers to a single, common judgement that all men will face. May I bring to your attention that Christians will not be at the same judgment with unbelievers. As Christians, we will appear before the judgment seat of Christ while the unbels will report to the White throne judgement. With this back-drop, it is clear that "the judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 must not be the one after physical death because there is no single judgement common to all men.

As I said before, we are left with only the option of spiritual death and its consequence: judgment. If we'll recall, Adam was judged as soon as he sinned even before the Lord came into the garden. That judgment ensures he could no longer stand in God's prescence and alienated him from God.

It is this separation from God that the atonement deals with, and ensures that though we are appointed to die once and be judged, Christ has provided a means of reconcialiation back to God. That is the main theme of the entire passage.

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na wa.

lucky don baptize you new name.

Shannon kwa?

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Shannon

I will be very glad to see their various operations(Ghost) such that I will discuss with examples while discussing with him. His is a man that needs many examples before he believes. He was a pegan before converted into christianity. Am virgling for that. Thanks and God bless.

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Hi Guys,

Finally back as promised. I'll keep this short. As I said earlier, I think Shahan', interpretation is the default one for many. I also note TayoD's entry, which to my mind sounds somewhat far-fetched, and I'm far from agreeing with it. I won't give in-depth detail as I feel the explanation speaks the simple truth and will appear as such to those who hear it. Hopefully that will also engender a personal search. But I trust you guys on that anyway. So here goes;

I believe the verse in particular, the chapter generally, (as well as most of the book up to that point), is expounding on the excellency of the NC with particular reference to the saving work of our Lord jesus Christ, and specifically His High Priesthood. What the portion in question is doing is opening up the shadow-type of the day of atonement, outlined in some detail in Leviticus.

Just a little broad background. As many may be aware, on the day of atonement the High Priest would enter the Most Holy place (ceremonially just the one time each year). He would take the blood of a ritually specified sacrifice to make atonement in place of himself). The HP always had a rope tied to his ankle. This was because if the sacrifice was not acceptable to God, the ensuing judgment (by fire!) would kill the HP, and they could retrieve his corpse without having to enter (would you ?) the Holy of Holies.

So what the verse is doing is comparing the yearly atonement sacrifice (verse 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands), where the HP entered with blood of another, to the spiritual fulfilment of this type, where Christ offered up Himself. Verses 25 goes on to explain how the shadow-type was repeated yearly, with blood of another, while verse 26 explains and exalts at the superiority of Christs sacrifice, being just the once, and with His own blood.

And the verse in question: verse 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

This refers to the appointment of the house of Aaron (as HP) to ceremonially die once (but this was done vicariously via the ritual offering). The judgement being the judgement of God on the sacrifice offered for atonement. An imperfect (blemished!) sacrifice would have resulted in a consuming judgement and the death of the HP. It's acceptance being witnessed by the return of the HP (a type of ressurection in a sense as the blood should have been his?).

I believe that in a simple way unlocks and explains that particular verse. To me it fits the context, harmonises with the surrounding verses, the chapter and the book and offers by far the clearest interpretation I've heard. And no, I never really doubted the rendering, just the interpretation.

But then the Bible, the Gospel is essentially simple. It doesn't require heaps of theorising and lengthy discourse, nor does it need excessive spiritualising. Default positions arise as a result of dogma. If we seek Him and not them, He will surely speak. I heard Him once and I haven't been the same.

I feel we've all been given pieces off the big picture. We can seek Him for yet more, and come together to share. The Christian discourse on Nairaland is hereby declared a Dogma-free, tradition-free, mog-free zone! Give God glory.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out![color=#990000][/color]

God bless

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Shannan

Plz don't say I ve asked too much on the this subject matter. Why because I hear so many people discussing about it and some believe in it without really asking those who are spiritually higher than them.

Plz What will I tell a person who said and I quote " I used to see my father sometimes in the night around 12am and 12pm and my father has not gone anywhere until the seond coming of Jesus Christ". This person is an elder in our area and a xtian. He said I was short words. Plz ur comments.

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@ Shahan

i really like you response to LuckyCo. God Bless You.

I have a question for you

Are familiar spirits just that (i.e evil spirits, demons that disguise as dead people) or actually the spirit of the dead people set loose on the earth? i believe they are just spirits.

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Hi TayoD,

I'm still very interested in your views on Heb. 9:27 and I Sam. 28. We are all learning and I trust that, perhaps, your insight might help me see what I might have missed.

Cheers.

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Shanno & others who commented on similar topic

How should I react or behave or believe on when I see a spirit of person that has died(Ghost)?

Again is it God's plan that somebody that will die and be coming out inform of spirit wearing white cloth or likes?

Again as a xtian what should I do when I see a spirit of somebody who has died?

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I think these scriptures clear  any doubt regarding John the Baptist.

There is indeed nothing like reincarnation

1Jhn 1:19   Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"

Jhn 1:20   He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."

Jhn 1:21   And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

Jhn 1:22   Then they said to him, "Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?

"

Jhn 1:23   He said: "I am

'The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

"Make straight the way of the LORD,"'*

as the prophet Isaiah said."

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Hi Everyone,

Apologies for my not being able to post as intended, technical hitch. I'll try and post as promised soon.

God bless

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Thanks shahan I love your response. May God continues to bless you as render your help to helpless.

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@TayoD,

I quite appreciate your exegesis of Heb. 9:27, although I may not really agree with you that it points more to spiritual death than to physical. Reason being simply that all men die spiritually once (which I agree with what you said), but the construct seems to hold that the writer was pointing more to when men are raised from the dead to face the judgement.

I had formerly reasoned a few years ago that it had to be spiritual death. What gave me the idea of my former position on this was Rom 5:12 & 14 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. . .Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

But then I had a rethink to understand it as a play of words that the writer of Hebrews is characteristically known to punctuate throughout this epistle. Another example is when he states in Heb. 11:17 that Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son when we know that Ishmael preceded Isaac.

What the writer wants us to understand (judging from the construct) is that the common lot of all men (the way of all the earth - I Kings 2:2) is death before the judgement - and you'll see there what the patriarch David meant by that. I'll not push this too strongly, even though I once held your position; but perhaps one day you'll come to see it is not what you might be suggesting. If not, no qualms.

Now regarding the case of Samuel's spirit in I Sam. 28:15, many people are persuaded it had to be a familiar spirit and not the prophet actually. Again, that's what I thought previously, until later study reveals otherwise that it was actually the prophet Samuel. This is one time that God in His sovereignty allowed a case like this in order to confirm to Saul that he had lost the kingdom. I'll wait to see your persuasions about why it is otherwise so, then share with you what you might be missing thereto.

Cheers.

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Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

While Shahan's contribution so far is biblically based, I agree with TV01 that this Bible verse holds far greater meaning than the church has traditionally taught. The 'death' mentioned in this passage holds the key to the interpretation of the whole verse. The question is how many kinds of death is common to all men; and which one of these deaths must be experienced by every son of Adam? The fact that some men have been known to avoid physical death suggests that the passage might not be refering to physical death. From the scriptures, we know of 2 men who never tasted death. The first is Enoch and the second is Elijah. Some also believe Moses never tasted physical death, but there is evidence from the New Testament that he did. Apart from these 2 men, we also know that the entire church body that remain alive at the time of Jesus' coming will also be resurrected and never taste physical death. Doesn't that all but eliminate the notion that Hebrews 9:27 refer to physical death? I believe it does.

If we have eliminated physical death, then we are left with only one alternative: spiritual death. Reading the entire chapter of Hebrews 9 suggests that verse 27 refers strictly to spiritual death. The chapter talks about the redemption provided "once" by the sacrifice of Jesus which "once" and for all takes care of the "one" time consequence of sin: "spiritual death". For every man born of a woman, the Psalmist has this to say: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. And if we understand that the wages of sin is death; then we can only conclude that the death appointed unto all men must be the one they can never escape. And I do not see how anyone can escape the one that comes about right from our mother's womb.

While there may be more questions from my submission, I believe I should slow down a little and hear what TV01 has to say. It will be nice to have others shed some additional light on the topic as well. God willing and with available time, I will also further explain my position as we go.

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@Topic,

I agree with all the contributors so far that John the Baptist and Elijah are two different personalities altogether.  The Bible does not teach re-incarnation in any way and every appearance of the dead in the Bible is only a manifestation of what the Bible calls familiar spirits. In this, I respectfully disagree with Shahan that the spirit that spoke to the witch of Endor is actually that of Samuel. That is a familiar spirit in action and the deceit is only further heightened by the personal pronoun that was used by that spirit.

Having said this, the only time the real spirits of those who died were ever seen was after the resurrection of Jesus. That is why Paul wrote that Jesus led captivity captive. I strongly believe that Jesus went into the 3 compartments under the ground after His death. The first is Hell, the second Tatarus and the third is Abraham's Bossom. On rising from the dead, He took the Saints in Abraham's Bossom with Him on ascension to heaven. It was on transition to heaven that many of these Saints were spotted in Jerusalem. So now, any one who dies in the Lord does not go to Abraham's Bossom but straight up to Heaven to be present with the Lord. I have references for this for anyone who cares to know more. While it appears this is a little digression from the topic at hand, I believe it is relevant to answering the question about re-incarnation.

I will answer the question of Hebrews 9:27 subsequently.

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Thanks shahan, you are absolutely right, in answering out of your persuasions, and I particularly appreciate your forthrightness and willingness to hear a contrary position (and rightly invite me to enunciate it rather than circling).

First let me digress a little. I took a 2 month posting hiatus from this forum (and I only really post to the thread on religion), although I read pretty much everything posted. One of the things I ruminated on was how much benefit I derived from posting and what was my attitude (and also that of others) when posting.

I really feel we could all be so much more edified if we pooled our experience, walks & understanding. I'll stop here as I have to dash now, but I shall return with an alternative understanding of this verse. I intend to be no later than tomorrow night and possibly earlier.

Back soon.

God bless

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@luckyCo,

Here's my opinion about that article: in some sense they may be correct; in other matters, they have a slightly different view than we read in the Bible.

1. Ghosts are not always from Satan; although the devil uses this phenomena to deceive people - in just the same way that he can imitate the gifts of God to deceive some Christians. Recall in I Samuel 28 that the witch of endor used a diabolical art (witchcraft) to stir up the spirit/ghost of a godly man (Samuel) at the request of King Saul. The message delivered by Samuel's ghost/spirit was no different from that delievered by the same prophet when he was alive. Further, the spirit did not pretend to be Samuel, for he clearly queried Saul: "Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" (verse 15).

2. Believers are especially warned to be careful not to engage in spiritism - including communicating with the dead (necromancy). That is what Scripture denounces as an abomination before God (Deut. 18:10-12).

3. The stronghold of satanism (including juju, jazz, etc.) can be broken by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ. The enemy and his demonic emissaries know a true believer when they see one, because they understand the operations of the realms of spirits; and they know when the name of Jesus Christ is present in someone who lives to honour God in truth.

I hope that this helps, and will be glad to learn from anyone contributing to the subject.

Cheers.

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@TV01,

Lol. . . I was only offering help, and my persuasions are borne out of having carefully studied that verse in Heb. 9:27. The one thing that came across to me is that you were beginning to sound argumentative without offering an alternative opinion if you were not satisfied with my inputs. Let me assure you: I'm not the writer of the Bible, and to keep questioning the rendition of the verse is simply to question the Word of God. What you read in my lines are my persuasions of the verse in its contexts.

Perhaps you should give it a careful study and offer us your views: you might do well to add to our understanding, rather than long drawn-out debates on just one point.

That said, I think if you take a look again at the verse, it does not drive just one point hinged on the word "once". Verse 27 is illustrative of verse 28: both are connected, and to just hinge this discussion on that one word is counter-productive. However, if your concern is basically about that one word, your will get help by understanding how David himself said in I Kings 2:2 - "I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man."

Might I say that "the way of all the earth" does not conflict with what I sahred earlier, for the patriarch was stating the same truth as that physical death is the common experience of men. Some men may experience death more than once; but Heb. 9:27 is not saying that men can experience death only once! neither does it say that judgement takes place immediately upon death.

Cheers.

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What is ur oppion on the article?

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According to one article about Ghost( I mean somebody that has been already died and being buried ), they are demon using the image of the person to decieve people to believe contrary to the teachings of God that their is re-incarnation. Satan(Demon) uses people who saved him or the family of people who is serving him to implement and achieve this purpose. But I don't know how true it is because it is not written in the bible.

As for the article, that Ghost is not the real person but the face of that person that was assumed by one of the demons to counter and disturb to believe in the Adiolatry. The article further explained that once the observes this type of thing and went to Juju-man, the Juju-man will came and beg(Chain) the demon (Already planned) to leave and the demon will inturn possess all the members of that family except those  who are spiritually string before accepting to go.

The Artcle Conclusion:

Ghost appear with this two purposes;

1. To decieve people to believe that their is something like re-incarnation

2. To possess people who have accepted that with the help of using satan to drive a satan.

3. To frustrate that (family or the person  who invited the juju-man) with the essence that they or he will never forget about Idolatry. Which means juju-man will be their solutions all the time.

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Back again,

I never said it was categorically wrong, I said it was possibly rendered wrong or the interpretation is incorrect. That is, if it's not incorrectly rendered. could this verse be better or differently expounded. You appear to be certain that both the rendering and interpretation are correct, right?

The appointment to die is once and after this the judgement. It could have said finally permanently ultimately or even severally. It does not, it say's once. A one time occurence. And it's emphatic in stating the occurence/event as once.

I find this explanation a bit of a stretch. Are you emphatically saying that is the best interpretation of this verse? Or that no other is plausible/possible? King David said, "I go the way of all the earth". Death is fully expounded on in the Scripture, both OT & NT. Why the need to emphasise the "once" in this verse, which bringss into question other verses and accounts of Biblical events?

I am not infering that it says all men must die at least once, it doesn't say that. Scripture plainly teaches that there will be some alive at His coming. What it clearly says is that it is appointed for men to die once. And how can it be common to all men, if not all die?

True, Christ died the once, but some men died more than once, so again, again, this could be stretching it. Neither am I questioning the timing of the judgement, understanding it to be as it is rendered, sometime after death, and said death is appointed to take place once. There is nothing ambiguous about this verse. Or anything that suggests it requires added non-contextual comment.

So again, is everyone satisfied that both rendering and generally accepted interpretation are spot on? is there no suggestion that there may be an alternative or deeper interpretation of this verse in lieu of any change to it's rendering? Anybody?

Let's keep talking.

God bless

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The questions from TV01 and your reply have raised some questions in my mind.

When u say men must die at least once (i.e. possibly twice) it gives credence to those who believe in Ghosts. More so when you use the phrase when all things would have run their course. Can you give a reply to the question by TV01 that cuts out the possibility of Ghosts ( or like one thread a few months ago said, dead people paying bus fares)

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TV01,

Many thanks for the insightful enquiries. However, let me clear a few issues:

1. I agree with yours about reincarnation not taught in the Bible.

2. The rendering of Heb. 9:27 is not wrong, as is given in most translations and versions: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

3. The fact that people have been raised from the dead does not conflict with the verse above. It rather points out the following: (a) it is the common lot of (appointed unto) men to experience death at least once; (b) judgement does not take place immediately upon death: rather, "after this" - after the common lot of men has run its course - at the end of it all, then the judgement takes place.

Let me expatiate:

(a) the common lot of men to experience death at least once:

This does not stretch the idea that all men must die at least once; for in I Cor. 15:51-52 we are given the mystery that some will be alive and not have experienced death when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. The construct of Heb. 9:27 is a general sense of what is common to all men; and that at the last, when all things would have run their course, then the judgement takes place.

(b) the judgement does not take place immediate upon death:

Notice that it is a specific judgement here referenced - "the judgement". Of course, we know that this occurs only at the end of the age when Jesus returns for expressly that purpose. We understand this from the fact that verse 27 illustrates verse 28; as if to say, "Just as men die once, so Christ died once" - to strengthen the fact that both the judgement of men (at the end of the age) and the sacrifice of Christ for salvation occur once without the hint of repetition.

I hope this helps and I've tried to understand your enquiry.

Cheers.

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Erudite post shahan, and thank you.

But I thought I clearly stated,  the question was not about re-incarnation. I am settled on that.

The question is the interpretation of Hebrews  Chapter 9 verse 27.

It clearly says "it is given unto men once to die". And almost universally interpreted to mean that the sequence is death then judgment.

But as I mentioned, there are numerous cases of people being revived (not re-incarnated), in the Bible. That says to me either the rendition is wrong or the generally accepted interpretation is incorrect.

Now back to my question;

If the verse simply means "it is given to men to die once and then judgement", as most interprete it, how do you explain Lazarus et al being raised from the dead?

Thanks

God bless

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@TV01,

Notice my phraseology: "One verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation is Heb. 9:27" - I didn't say that is the only verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation.

Now the text you might have been alluding to:

II Kings 13:21

"And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet."

First, this does not indicate reincarnation, as you well know; for reincarnation and rising from the dead are not the same thing. The former speaks of an idea that a dead person is re-birthed as a baby and assumes another personality. That is totally antithetical to a rising from the dead, where people never lose their identity.

The case of Hebrews 9:27 is a summing up of stated divine judgement that men will face when the Judge sits expressly for that purpose. It does not suppose that men who rise from the dead as in the afore-mentioned miracles, will not be judged; rather, it affirms that all will stand before God to give an accounting of their lives on earth - at that Day.

The strength os this is that a man being miraculously raised from the dead comes in his own personality and identity - not as in the case of reincarnation into someone else's personality. On that Day, we can be sure that John the Baptist will stand distinguished from Elijah the prophet; as well everyone else. No one will stand before God in that day with multiple identities of reincarnation.

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shahan

Thanks so much for your reply. I really thank God for your knowledge and I appreciate it alot. It is a perfect solution to my question. Remain blessed in Jesus Name.

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@luckyCO,

Rest your heart - Christianity has no verse in support of re-incarnation. The only One who was incarnated is the Lord Jesus Christ, for the express purpose of giving His life in the flesh in order to redeem us:

The Incarnation: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14).

The Purpose: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Pet. 3:18 ).

One verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation is Heb. 9:27 >> "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." There's no coming back this side of existence, just as the rich man had requested but was denied his wish in Luke 16:27-31.

Now, John the Baptist and Elijah.

When Jesus affirmed about John that "this is Elias, which was for to come"Matt.11:14, KJV - He was not inferring that John had reincarnated as Elijah. He was using a very familiar Jewish expression that pointed out the reality of a thing in proverbial language. In effect, He was saying that John was the one who fulfilled the prophesy of Elijah's coming in that context.

How are we to understand Elijah's coming as a forerunner of Christ? Not a literal fulfillment of the man Elijah appearing; but that the one who was to come would appear among the people of Israel 'in the spirit and power of Elijah':

"And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Luke 1:17).

John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's coming in the context discussed by Christ to His disciples, but He was not making any inference to the concept of reincarnation.

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