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Is God Really Omniscient (All-Knowing)?

I stand to be corrected, if i am wrong. We Know and proclaim that God is OMNISCIENCE, meaning that he knows all things, He knew us before we came into existence, and He knows what will happens the next second.

My question now is -According to Gen 3, where the serpent tricked Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit, WHY DID GOD PUT THAT TREE THERE WHEN HE KNEW THAT IF IT IS EATEN, IT WILL CAUSE HAVOC TO THE BEATIFUL WORLD HE CREATED.

Secondly in Gen 6 vs 7- GOD said " i will wipe out these paople i have created, and also the animals and the birds, because i am sorry that i made any of them. The Questions now is, WHY DID HE MAKE THAT KIND OF STATEMENT, IS IT THAT HE NEVER KNEW THAT HUMANS WERE GOING TO BE THAT BAD? WHY THE REGRET

Lastly, In 1 thess 4 vs 17- Then we which are living at that time will be gathered up along with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, And so shall we ever be with the Lord, THE QUESTION- Was It God's Intention, that we should be with him in heaven, if yes then why creating the earth?

I dont know if i am making sense to anybody.

There is also a portion of the binle that says no man has ascended to heaven except the Son of Man, who vame down from Heaven. Please can someone explain to me what happened to ENOCH and ELISHA?

P.S This does not mean i dont believe That GOd is OMNISCIENCE, i do believe, but i am just creating this thread, to enable us discuss and know our Bible very well. What do u think?

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the FOOLISHNESS of God is WISER than man (not just mans wisdom but the every every of a man. His wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and what ever he could ever imagine.)

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about eden nd the destruction of the earth.i wud like u to know dat every action of man is a test which outcome is in our hands so adam was tested by the serpent nd he failed nt by God nd if u ask y,man needed to b tested to prepare him for his blessings or further journey.so about the world at large nd d destruction of it.remember dat d wages of sin is death but God didnt destroy man immediadely because of love nd mercy even though the people care not of GOD but noah did and was saved though he wasnt totally righteous.it says dat their sins rose up to GOD which means it has rich d apex.

enoch and elisha didnt ascend but were respectively caught up(jst as it will be on d rapture day) nd taken up by a chariot of fire but our lord JESUS came of his own free will(philp 2 vr 4 downward) and ascended of his own free will

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This is an old thread, but I'll respond anyway. I don't see a conflict between God knowing all and the concept of free will. I used to. I mean, since God knew us before we were born, and some say God knows which will be saved and which will not, then that means God designed some of us for eternal suffering in hell but allowed others to escape, right? Doesn't seem like the God that I know, and that type of foreknowledge contradicts the Bible which spends an awful lot of time telling us what we should do ...if we were predestined as some believe (mus-interpretation of Ephesians for example) ...some elect and some not-so-elect, then why give us commands? We are just automatons putting in time and 'feeling' like we have free will, right? Whenever I see what appears to be an apparent contradiction in God's Word, it just means that I have not studied enough to come up with the right perspective, that's all. Here's what I believe and I believe this is in alignment with God's Word:

1. Is God omniscient? Yes. Does he know who is going to hell and who isn't? Sort of. God gave us free will, and like a computer program that can predict the results of myriad combinations of moves, God knows that if make the wrong decisions what our result will be and vice versa. God chooses to give us moral free will and asks that we use it wisely. Not guaranteeing our results is His choice, not some kind of lack of knowledge. We are saved by grace, not by deserving it, and we become saved by opening our hearts and minds to the fact that God is God and that we should give our lives to him, having faith in Him for our salvation and demonstrating our love and faith through our actions ...which includes 'repent' (the word so many churches nowadays leave out of their sermons).

2. Is God omnipotent? Yes ...with limitations. God cannot lie or do anything imperfect.

3. Revelation says the Book of Life existed before the foundation of the world. So? It gets filled out as we go, as people give themselves over to God, names are entered. It's wrong to assume that your name has always been there or not.

4. Were we predestined to be saved (and vice versa) as some understand Ephesians to say? Yes. The Bible is not wrong. It was and is God's intention that all are saved and Christ died for all. That said, some will ignore the fact that a spot has been made for them and they will choose to go the wrong way. Predestined means it was not God's will for people to go the wrong way...

There are other questions that are harder to answer than these ...and it's very possible that we, as the Bible says 'see through a glass darkly' like a dirty mirror, may not reach full understanding and knowledge on some questions and we will find out the rest later. In the mean time, our job is to have faith in God (Jehovah God, the one mentioned in the Holy Bible ...and no, it's not the same 'god' worshiped by others ...it is the one that all can come to, regardless of where you were born and what you may have been taught).

Brian

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Hi brother backslider. The way I look at it is that science seeks the truth. God is truth. For 50 years science said that the universe was eternal and did not have a start or a end. The bible told us no the universe began when god created it and it Will end. In 1984 the last bit of scientific proof was in, the universe indeed did have a start called the big bang and it will end one day. So I and many religious people already knew the truth by faith that the universe was created because we know the truth and the truth is God. Amen?

; }>

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Omniscient is 2 words combined.

Science has to do with facts

Omni has to do with Universal knowledge.

God is All knowing based on facts about us that he sees though they can change at the last minute.

The bible says he searcheth the heart of man.

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And a happy day to you brother Grouppoint, and thanks for this fine forum, I have posted in many and this one is top drawer and alive! I agree with your reply as well, all good posting. If you are ever in East Tennessee stop by and I will show you around. You can find hillbilly land if you look for it and even find God in these mountains, and I can always use a extra hand in getting the missions and church up and running, they are always a work in progress and it seems we are always underfunded. Pastor Greg Dubois AKA Rev2bit, ; }>

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@Rev2Bit

I do believe that you were not Bloviating about your qualification and the number of times you have gone through your bible.

I also believe that you know that revelation does not come from the number of time you read it. I merely politely suggested that you read your bible and the Holy Spirit may show you a nugget of truth to cememnt your hypothesis. I sense that you read me otherwise. No offence meant brother.

Around when I gave my life to Christ, I pondered the significance of the various christian holidays; Easter & Christmas. I have also found that calling it by passover, eoshter, Winter solstice, etc whatever name should no longer make much difference, as the scripture says, 'as long as Christ is preached' or in this case since Christ is celebrated, it does not matter much to me what the original intent was.

My reason is this, I have reads that Sunday was originally intended as aday of worship to the sun god, which suggests that many christians may not be truly keeping holy the sabbath as commanded by God. Hence, if Easter, Christmas and even Sundays are all wrong, where then do we draw the line? I say this again; as long as Christ is preached and celebrated, then Ourlord owns precedes and supercedes all others concerning all those days.

Hence I no longer have issues wishing people Happy easter, afterall, as a non-jew, I am not really celebrating the passover. Rather I am celebrating the resurrection of the Living God. In todays language; Easter. (Pls see any dictionary for the definition , and meaning of easter sunday.)

defn:

. an annual Christian festival in commemoration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, observed on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox, as calculated according to tables based in Western churches on the Gregorian calendar and in Orthodox churches on the Julian calendar.

So Happy Easter, Passover, ressurection Sunday, My Brother.

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@Rev2bit: Quote Have you wondered why God rarely if ever exposes his true physical form to man? Its because IMO God has no physical form that can manifest in our domain, except in a modified form such as a burning bush or even a man (Jesus Christ!). I think at one time the physical universe was somehow perfect, but the introduction of sin ruined that.

Hmmm’ I read your entire reply and noticed quite a confrontational tone that saddened me. In any case I see that you are in NYC, but seem to be of a different culture, so I am going to be cautious in my replies to you including dismissing the tone of your reply while hoping that you merely misunderstood my intent and some factual aspects of my thread . Again these following replies are only my opinion and should not influence a believer in any faith. When the time is right God will (or not) call me to preach these ideas. As for your question/statement is gods manifestation’s into our temporal world a sign or is it actually him? I think that the spirit of God permeates the temporal universe. That is God is actually part of the universe, we can no more separate God from his universe than we could take the aroma from perfume. There would be no use for odorless perfume, nor a universe without God. That said God exists even when the universe ceases to. God does not need the universe the universe needs God. So God was both a sign in the burning bush as well as his spirit being ‘there’ where the bush was. The bush only provided a temporal liaison to be able to communicate with man on his level. (a temporal manner).

I am not sure I understand are you saying that you delineate between what you call the sign of God and God? If they did not remove their shoes I would think it was not out of disrespect but of ignorance.

We must agree to disagree about Jesus. However I did say that Jesus was God just as the burning bush was God . Jesus was special because he was human and had prophesy to fulfill , I know we won’t agree, but that does not mean I don’t respect your opinion I simply disagree.

Again I find us in disagreement my friend. I would say that Jesus was the most successful prophet in the history of mankind. Why is Christianity called that? Paul only paid homage and did as Jesus prophesied.

I can agree that God was at the geographical location where the Burning Bush was located, and would go so far to say its holy and sacred ground. There could have been a translational error in where the burning bush was Sinai mountain. I have formed no hard opinion on this. In any case Moses was appointed by Yahweh to lead the Israelites out of Egypt and into Canaan, much different that what Jesus was to do.

Again we must agree to disagree. Moses had a personal relationship with God , I feel that Jesus was Christ and was God in a temporal form. Moses was not God but only a agent of God. There is very much difference between the two concepts. This is why I am a Christian and you are not. Again, I respect your beliefs but do not share them.

Yes he was a vessel that was imbued with the holy ghost and spirit in my opinion. BTW I too like those old films.

Well you are incorrect in both statements. I have a atypical Christian attitude. Most traditional Christians belief that God is 100% perfect. It this were the case we would have no free will and have no use for this universe. God is no more a burning bush than a rock. God instilled and manifested himself into our universe to a form that we could have dialog with. As for Jesus God instilled himself into the virgin to be born the Christ. Jesus Christ was God in a temporal form. Its suggested in scripture that we can not view God directly and live. So anytime that God manifests himself in this temporal universe has done it in a form that we can see and communicate with. Jesus Christ is no exception.

There are some things that I take on faith that Jesus was the Christ is one of them. I have no ill will to the Islamic faith, but will keep my faith in Jesus Christ, BTW , God has 100% knowledge in his realm , we being human are unable to understand it , and it, 100% certainty that anything is 100% true is in error. Perfection can not exist in our (the temporal universe), only God is 100% truth.

Thanks for your reply ; }>

Oh the photo is of the crosses near my mission , we built them out of 40' ling telephone poles,

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@Rev2bit:

I am not surprised to see Jesus mentioned prominently as you described "Christian concept of God!" Can God Almighty do anything with Jesus? Was the burning bush then God, or a sign of God presence to Moses, etc? It has just to be a sign, because does not have to leave His position of Honor in other to manifest His presence, His sign.

The same sign or manifestation of the presence of God, was what Moses served to Pharaoh and his court, his people and also the Children of Israel! later, it is not impossible that some researchers must have canvassed mount sanai and had walked over the place where the burning bush occurred. And they may not have removed their shoes.

As in the case of Jesus, he was not greater than just a mere sign to his people. The Children of Israel. They needed another shephard, and God provided it, in the person of Jesus. Te same way Moses was to them. Moses took them out of slavery to man, so that they may become the ambassador of true faithto mankind. Inviting people to the religion that will be the way of salvation, away from Idol worshipping. Instead, they immediately started out to Idol worshipping in form of Golden calf, from what they took from the Black Egyptians. There is no way slaves could have acquired all they left with in their exodus out of Egypt!

Jesus, was the most unsuccessful prophet, in terms of pure fellowership, from his stated ministry. If he was ever a deity, he also failed miserably. Think of it. No sooner that he was lifted up (not that he was lifted up, he did not lift himself), than the true leadership of Christendom emerged in the personage of Paul! Now thats a successly man!

The point that I have made here is that the burning bush as a place was not God. The event was a dialogue for which God chose to make Moses a prophet and empowered him, so that he can be certain that whoever followed him had followed God. Whoever saw him had seen God's emissary. In the case of Jesus, it is the same thing. If Jesus had lived and there was no miracles performed, no one would have thought of him but just another flippant. All the miracles were from God.

As I watched Charleston Helston yesterday in his timeless performance in the 10 commandment, he was telling (Nefertiri), Nefertiti that he can not perform any miracle, but he was just a mere vessel of those miracles truly performed by God. The final miracle was the death of all the first born. Jesus himself said that he was nothing (in the same way Moses said it to nefertiti), but all the miracles were from God, but he was the vessel of manifestation at that time.

Typical Christian thinking about God! It is no surprise that you continue to belittle God, since you made him to be a man or even the burning bush. Afterall Jesus did not know many things: the last hour. that fig fruit can never be found out of its season on any fig tree, etc. Yet you call him god, seeing that he had limited knowledge. just the same way that you said god lacks 100% knowledge. If your god lacks any knowledge, it is time you turn to the Mu""slim God who is all knowing.

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Hi brother Grouppoing! It’s a wonderful day in the neighborhood (remember Mr Rogers? ). I would like to respectfully make a small correction. I didn’t say that my opinions were not backed by scripture, I said that most, if not all my opinions were backed by scripture in some capacity, but that I probably interpreted scripture differently than you or most people. That said you may be interested to know that I am a pastor, and minister able to legally marry or bury you. If it makes any difference I hold a M.A. in Theology (masters degree UT Knoxville, and a master of divinity at Milligan College/Seminary both in Tennessee) (USA). So I had to read the bible many times to pass muster!

I agree that education is important if only to defend our faith from outside influences like the Secular Humanists which includes the ‘Evolutionists’ and ‘Darwinists’. At age 53 I have read the holy scripture so many times that I know much of our lords work by rote. Having said that, I too think that faith is far more important than education and have seen many of my brothers and sisters fall away from God as their education level increased! You may of misunderstood me in saying that nothing is 100%. God in his realm is perfect, and the earth was at one time perfect. We have tainted the earth with sin which makes it less than 100% perfect, so nothing is for sure in our universe , it can’t be due to our own sinful actions.

Oh BTW, did you know that Easter is very much a pagan holiday? Being a brit you should know that. Easter is not a Christian name. It is Chaldean (Babylonian) in origin - the name Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven. The name Astarte, as found on the Assyrian was the name Ishtar. The worship of Bel and Astarte was introduced very early into Britain, along by the Druids, "the priests of the groves," the high places where the pagans worshiped the idols of Baal. In the Almanac of the 1800's, May 1st is called Beltane, from the pagan god, Bel. The titles Bel and Molech both belong to the same god.

But I know you meant Passover thank you and happy Passover to you , praise Christ for he is risen.

; }>

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@Rev2Bit,

You may have put nearly everyone to sleep.

Good thing you inserted the disclaimer before your postulation that these ideas were your personal opinion and cannot be backed by scripture.

So this means that it may not be of God. And we know that anything that is not of God is,

However, if you study your scripture some more, the Holy spirit may reveal to you or through you, a nugget of truth, which may yet prove your hypothesis.

I do doubt that may happen because attributing 99.9999% to God is simpply not good enough. I personally will stop serving Him if I found this to be the case.

I need a God who is 100% in control 100% of the time.

Happy Easter to you Brother.

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Dang, I think I put everyone to sleep? I maen I know it was, zzzz, ahhhh did I dose off, I mean it was a long , zzzzz, WHAT? Oh it was a lonngg, ZZZZZZZzzzzzzz ,

: }>

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[quote="Grouppoint"]

Dont worry, you are not alone in your thinking re: freewill v Omniscience.

However, if you understand that knowing all things is quite different from causing all things to occur are two distinct separate things.

If God is the Omega as you rightly stated, then you must understand that he is already there at the end, so he knew what you were going to do before you did it (different from being the cause of your decision).

Its kind of like seeing the end of a movie, then rewinding back to the start and watch events unfold just as you had previously seen it.

I understand that one may argue that, with freewill, man can change the decisions several times after God had see the plot. I would say that God watched all the various changes of mind (read: backslides, sin, Faith, hypocrisy, salvation, etc), and most importantly God saw tha very last decision you were to make concerning any issue. [/quote]

With all due respect brother Grouppoint, I think we will disagree before this is over. I hope that we agree as I find your company pleasant. I will tell you that I have discussed this very same thing before in many forums, and at least once as a guest pastor at the local ’biker church’. I think a hanging or sticking point that prevents many people from agreeing with me is that they feel that I am saying that they have no free will because God knows what we (humans) are going to do, and what the universe down to every muon, boson, and electron or person will do in its ‘life time‘. I am saying the opposite, that its precisely that God does not know (or want to in a strange way) what we will do with a accuracy of 100% in the phyical (our everyday) realm. His knowledge is close enough in supernatural terms as to be indistinguishable from 100% in human terms. In other words we could not know anyway if God was 100% accurate, because we are not perfect.

I see no difference in pre destiny and God knowing every aspect of our future with 100% accuracy. If God did know with an accuracy of 100% (a perfect knowledge) of everything we could have no free will. Using your movie film analogy according to God the film would already be in the can. But according you maybe its act one where you are just going to the market to buy milk. If God knows with 100% accuracy that you will go to the store and but milk you have no free will , because you must do what God knows you will do. You just think you made a free will decision to go get milk.

This is precisely the reason that I think that God does not know with a 100% certainty that you will go to the market and buy the milk. In the bible it tells us God is blind to sin, I think that God does not look (observe) at us all the time to start with , which gives us start on our free will path. Then remember I said that God maybe knows that you will go to the store to buy milk with an accuracy rate of 99.99999%> to the thousands power. This almost non existent amount of wiggle room [I]is[/I] our free will! It also allows the physical universe to run on its God given physical laws (the quantum uncertainty effect) set into motion at the moment of the Big Bang. God is in his 100% perfect domain ‘looking’ and projecting his powers of observation (of knowing the universe start to finish) through the ‘liaison dimension’ (the dimension that is like a conduit or a kind of ether’ partially supernatural and partially physical like where quantum process rule, quantum entanglement, superposition etc ) to our dimension the tangible temporal universe that we consider reality, and the everyday world.

When we interpret anything that God does, it can not be with an accuracy of 100% , which is a lucky for us, and its designed in feature of our temporal universe! That fallibility or not being able discern a 100% accuracy of anything from what time really is to what mass really is saves us from a plethora of evils! Our fallible flesh and blood brain is a perfect instrument or a temporal vessel to house and navigate our soul (or self) through a sometimes hostile universe.

So we only have free will because God does allow this imperfect universe to exist where nothing can be perfect or understood with 100% accuracy. I would add that there may be one exception and that would be miracles, where god may violate his own rules that he made for the temporal part of his three component reality, but that’s another thread.

Again please excuse the length of this reply. And if anyone has any questions I invite them because all this is not easy to put into words. I hope to put all my ideas into a book form so if anyone knows a good ghost writer that can condense down my words and concepts and will work on commission please let me know! I will provide a finder fee or send a pound of flesh .

; }>

Note one (1), a function of ‘spacetime’ ; length (or depth), width, and height, often expressed as 'x', 'y' and 'z'. Space time is these three function when incorporated with time. However if we consider time as the "fourth dimension", the additional fourth spatial other than x,y and z, it may be referred to as the fifth dimension. Or to for ease of understanding, time can be thought of as the 0th dimension, and all positive-numbered dimensions spatial ie; length (or depth), width, and height.

Again sorry for the long rambling post I tried to condense it but it seems I failed miserably!

; {>

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Rev2,

Dont worry, you are not alone in your thinking re: freewill v Omniscience.

However, if you understand that [i]knowing [/i]all things is quite different from [i]causing [/i]all things to occur are two distinct separate things.

If God is the Omega as you rightly stated, then you must understand that he is already there at the end, so he knew what you were going to do before you did it (different from being the cause of your decision).

Its kind of like seeing the end of a movie, then rewinding back to the start and watch events unfold just as you had previously seen it.

I understand that one may argue that, with freewill, man can change the decisions several times after God had see the plot. I would say that God watched all the various changes of mind (read: backslides, sin, Faith, hypocrisy, salvation, etc), and most importantly God saw tha very last decision you were to make concerning any issue.

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[quote="omowhyou"]God is omniscient and will always remain that way. If God is not all knowing, how has man been able to create so many wonderful things?[/quote]

That is a beautiful way of how to view reality. I guess that the 'other guy' oversaw building the not so wonderful things eh? ; }>

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Thanks for the warm welcome Grouppoint and if anyone else said it, thanks to you even if you used a RPG instead of a ballistic missile! I see good population of intelligent life at this site, which cannot be said at many of the other forums I have had the pleasure of visiting or belonging to. Ok, about that rather spiritually risqué statement ; “I think God does not know with 100% accuracy the outcome of the (our) universe, only the probabilities to a exceedingly high degree! I have thought about how to make a simple short and concise statement/reply, but unfortunately, my reply has to be just a bit long.

And it begins with a disclaimer. To wit; The following is my opinion and I am not suggesting that it is the only way to understand these aspects of reality and the spiritual realm we call religion, nor I’m I asking anyone to change their beliefs to mirror mine, I belief this way because I must, it’s the truth to me. The first reason I feel that God does not know the outcome of the universe with a 100% accuracy is because he does not want to.

Yes it sounds silly but we can delve a little deeper in the next response. (if there is one)

Secondly, the reason that God does not ’know’ with 100% accuracy the outcome of the tangible universe is that if he did free will would not, or [I]could [/I] not exist IMO. Our universe under goes a quantum process every nanosecond. If you remember that I said all three domains are casually connected these are (1) the supernatural (gods ‘dimension‘), (2) the temporal (the tangible universe that we live in and call reality) and (3) finally the domain that acts like a permeable glue and acts as a kind of liaison to all the other domains/dimensions. When time and physical processes (all the tiny processes in the universe) are viewed on the smallest scales (the quantum scale) we can not know for certain all the properties of any piece of matter. Lets use an electron for example. We can know the momentum of a electron but not where it is in space. Or we can know where it is in space but not know the momentum at the same time.

This is called [I]uncertainty[/I], and it has some profound effects on mass and matter! So we can’t know the speed or momentum and where the electron is at the same time, but we can by using some fairly simple calculations know with a very high degree of probability where this electron is and where it is going and its momentum! This uncertainty analogy is demonstrative of how God might not know all the details of his universe but does know what it will do from alpha to omega with a exceedingly superhuman accuracy!

So you see God does know what the universe (and of course you) will do nanosecond to nanosecond to what would seem to humans with a accuracy that is infallible. But that it is probabilities, that tiny bit of wiggle room, gives us the ability to have free will in a seemingly predestined universe.

Sorry this took so much font to describe, but I am not the most skilled writer! Oh for those of you that are stacking up cord wood around the stake , I would like to proclaim that as a open theist Christian I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior and know he was the son of God (and was God in a earthly vessel) and that I have dedicated my life to him.

: }>

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God is omniscient and will always remain that way. If God is not all knowing, how has man been able to create so many wonderful things?

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@Rev2Bit

My main issue was that if we get to the other side of eternity, would we also become omniscient, since we would no longer be bound by time?

Also, since would no longer suffer death, would we be omnipotent?

, [quote author=Rev2bit

I think God does not know with 100% accuracy the outcome of the (our) universe, only the probabilities to a exceedingly high degree! (ducks)….cya ‘mate‘…

[quote][/quote]

Rev2, Good thing you ducked, the missiles were ballistic, even the atheists will disagree with you on this seemingly sacrilegious statment.

Would you humour me by expatiating your thesis?

by the way, Welcome to the best forum on the internet,

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@rev2Bit,

Dont worry, you may just have redeemed yourself from the apellation of one who bloviates.

Now we have two words that I am not sure of apellation and bloviates (heh). Anyway, I have a good friend who recently became a naturalized citizen , he was from London, so I may have to use him as a translator? You know I might have to go all hillbilly on you , we have some words that no one knows what they mean after you get off buck mountain.

We will give it a shot anyway , you ask me ; “why would God tell us things on this earth that we are incapable of understanding until we get to heaven?” I think its primarily what God does not tell us! Then why are we limited in our ability to understand absolute perfection? First I want to make it perfectly clear this is my opinion, and only an opinion. If I were very sure it was the truth I might be preaching ! I feel that that there are at least three realties dimensions or domains. (probably more but we will keep it simple). One is supernatural and the other is a physical domain (the one that we experience with our senses, i.e. touch feel smell etc) and the third dimension or domain is like the glue that holds the others together. Its like a liaison and its where prayer and thought etc exists in. Perfection can only exist in the supernatural domain which of course is Gods domain. Have you wondered why God rarely if ever exposes his true physical form to man? Its because IMO God has no physical form that can manifest in our domain, except in a modified form such as a burning bush or even a man (Jesus Christ!). I think at one time the physical universe was somehow perfect, but the introduction of sin ruined that. I have only touched on the answers , but I don’t know if this forum has a word limit, and I have most likely already either PO’ed a bunch of mates or have put them to sleep so I will move on to your other point?

Then you said : “Saying this, if heaven is eternity i.e. outside of time, then would we all not become omniscient, seeing that time is really the difference between God and man.

i.e. God knows our end from our begining, since He is already there at the end.” Interestng concept but I think that God is much more than just the ‘eternal infinite’ , God created time at the moment of the Big Bang which is the creation event , in the terms of science. I will leave you hanging, and this may make you mad as well , I hope not. I think God does not know with 100% accuracy the outcome of the (our) universe, only the probabilities to a exceedingly high degree! (ducks)….cya ‘mate‘…

You said “Please ensure that your replies remain pithy.” oops sorry mate I truly wish I could , but these concepts do not lend themselves to sound byte responses. I have read entire books that barely cover just one subject of the many we have already mangled! Thanks for the English lesson in English slang that is! ; }>

maybe I can be more pithy if there are only one point for each reply? Thanks for the boards patience on me, the newbie (so far)

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God is all knowing. That means that God knows of everything that is in existence in all his creations. It also means that the laws of God govern every happening in all creations, and whatever has happened, is happening or will happen will be subject to those laws. Since these laws are immutable, it is very possible to forsee the final efects or consequences of any decision or movement made by individuals, nations and even the whole of mankind. Freewill and Gods omniscience are very compatible since man is free to make a decision but the consequence of his decision will be according to the laws of God and that is why it is very possible to predict future events. Those who are called by God to see into the beginning of every action can make accurate prophecies. However the begining of most decision is in the spiritual, not in the brain. Most often the brain is unaware of those decisions and in many cases the spiritual decsions have been taken for centuries, years , days etc. Faith is not believe in something without proof as most seem to suggest. People who have true faith has proof except that the proof is non-physical. God and his working can only be understood with the spirit. It is an irony that material, physical proofs are being demanded for something that is not material. It is impossible for the intellect or its product (science) to understand God.

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@rev2Bit,

Dont worry, you may just have redeemed yourself from the apellation of one who bloviates.

But tell me, why would God tell us things on this earth that we are incapable of understanding until we get to heaven?

Saying this, if heaven is eternity i.e. outside of time, then would we all not become omniscient, seeing that time is really the difference between God and man.

i.e. God knows our end from our begining, since He is already there at the end.

Please ensure that your replies remain pithy.

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JayFK, yes I said that in a convoluted way , so we are in agreement of sorts! God can be both but he may have a reason for not making a 'perfect' creation etc, ; }>

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God cannot possibly be Omniscient and Perfect at the same time. The properties contradict themselves when you compare The Creator with Creation.

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Hi Grouppoint. Boviating? I have been around this old world a few times but that is a new word, I assume its a minor derogatory slur indicating that I am full of hot air? In any case I shall attempt to answer your question/statement.

First, with all due respect, I did answer the question. God is all knowing , however we, as humans cannot hope to verify this because we are inherently limited by a flesh and blood body, not to mention existing living in a universe tainted by sin. When we are taken up to be with God we will be able to understand his Omniscience.

Secondly God has not called me to preach, he has called me to create the two missions and the church. The missions , Mountain Manna Mission is a humanitarian food bank type mission which fills the soul as well as the belly, while the Mission of Crosses is a spiritual mission dedicated to building and installing religious symbols and installing these symbols (usually three at least 10 meter crosses on private land). Thanks for your reply and I hope I have avoided the dreaded moniker of Boviating! ; {>

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@rev2bit,

Your answer does not state whether you beleive that God is Omniscient or not.

100% perfect is still not the same as Omiscient.

So feel free to clarify, else you shall be accused of bloviating.

Finally, why do you not preach? Did Christ not preach, and command us to preach.

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I all I am a pastor and 'own' (actually God owns everything) a very modest non preaching church and two very modest missions. Our doctrine is open Christian theism which is a rather radical non traditional form of Christianity that is sometimes criticized by my more standard or traditional Christian brothers and sisters. Just a bit of background. Do I think that God is Omniscient? This is a complicated question. I see God existing outside of the temporal universe (the same place he was before the creation of the universe etc), but he is connected and permeates the temporal universe. So God is 100% perfect in his domain and is as perfect as allowable in the temporal universe (where we live). I will be happy to clarify my answer to anyone. ; }>

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God is Omniscient. We just dont know Him well enough, yet.

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well dear Poster

I believe you have the right to ask what ever question u want

we Believe that God is Omniscient

This is what we believe , now Belief, which is based on Faith,

Faith is Believing in Something without any proof of it's existence

So we can never be Sure for a fact whether he is Omniscient but we believe without having Proof that he is

That is why we say " have FAITH in God "

i like this topic you seem to have a very Philosophic Mind

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All the name belong to one person which is our creator. Nationals have different name for Him, The Jews gave God many names because of the wonderful things He did to them. We have one God who is above all things

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Which god ooooo?

there are numerous gods, Allah, chi, olodumare, jehovah, yaweh,elyon,mawu etc

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yes he is. He knows everything

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Ugonna,

I am so sorry ma'am, I ought to have called. I will endeavour to do so within the next few days. Take care and God bless you.

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@trini girk, pls take it easy on KDK

@KDK, so you are in town (as in Niaja)!!! Na wa for you o

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Lafile,

Thanx Bro, I am still on Nairaland. I am currently in Nigeria and I have had little or no time to be online so as to write something substantial. Thanx and keep the flame burning. God bless you all.

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Hi Trini, Thanks for this post, I've been waiting for a reply to this, but the thread seemed to go quiet immediately I posed my question. I considered Universalism (or aspects of it), like I try to do most doctrine I come across. The usual questions - Do I feel a Spirit led resonance? Does it fit into the unified whole? - I was never quite convinced by Universalism as a whole, but it did pose some interesting questions.

Not being convinced, I never really delved deep into it. Like a lot of stuff, I parked it until an opportune moment, so when it cropped up here on Nairaland, I followed a while and then posed my question. I particularly like the distinction you made between free will and free moral agency. It's not one I made. Seems to suggest some sort of "verbal sleight of hand" being used to make this stick. It's a common ploy in trying to make deception sound like the truth. Using the same phrases, but having different meanings, or language that sounds familiar to mask heresy.

Thanks again, and I'd appreciate anything else anyone has to share that conclusively nail this.

God bless

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i thought this thread was over

@KDK thought you left nairaland. welcome back bro

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Hmmm, this is interesting. KDK, are you a pastor?

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and the "Infancy Gospel of Thomas"? If you read my post well, I said "Maybe we could have found explanation to these debates and misunderstandings we now have". If you've read all of these missing texts of the bible, then yes I stand to be corrected. They were dispelled for different reasons, not just for reasons you mentioned.

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@macalurs,

the so-called "excluded books" of the Bible are nothing more than Gnostic writings. A very good example is the "The Gospel of Judas", purported to be among the so-called "excluded books" of the Bible. A book that was written 150 years AD. Excluded book indeed!!

I suggest you wikipedia about Gnostics and their beliefs and also the gospel of judas.

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Sometimes the problem with God concept is the way is presented - the image painted. People need a more understandable explanation. Something that can be realated to our physical sorrounding. The issue of "accept it without caring to understand" sometimes is the root of unbelief.

Again its hard to accept we have an all caring deity up there in the face of terrible, traumatic events going on in the world today.

It brings up the issue of why God allows suffering even for an absolutely innocent new born.

Regardless of all these speculations and rebellion, there surely is proof that something, if not God is out there.

If not, how would you explain the existence of the universe. There surely, was a beginning somewhere.

Call it the big bang and i'll ask you what led to the big bang. Surely some forces ignited it.

That force is God.

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I'm loving this thread. I'll post on later

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Hi KDK and others,

Sometimes I just like to follow a thread and hear what people have to say. I figured from the length of this one that there was something worth hearing.

I can't say I've been diligent to read it all, but I am posting because I see that "Universalism" has cropped up.

Now, I don't claim to be a Universalist (The notion that everyone will ultimately be saved), but on the course of study and research, I have come across writings about it, and particularly L. Ray Smith.

To be honest like many (most?) Christians, I had a default position of eternal heaven and hell. After stumbling across Universalism and studying some and praying a bit, I wasn't convinced enough to make a wholesale change.

I am always the first to say that with the plain Word of scripture and leading of the Holy Spirit, I am willing to re-appraise, not being tied to any denomination or yoked by tradition.

I realise it's a walk, and one makes it personally, not by proxy or via 3rd parties. Universalism may well be 100% true, maybe I'm just not there yet, or not mature enough to see or handle it.

Having said that, I have a few questions to start, specifically for KDK, but open to all.

1. KDK are you an avowed Universalist? Do you subscribe to L. Ray Smiths teachings on the doctrine in their entirety? Are their any other subscribers to this doctrine out there?

2. The whole doctrine to a great degree turns on the theory of free-will, specifically mans free will.

I have never had any issue with God's sovreignity or His omniscience. I believe the whole of history and the universe is steadily moving towards a consumation that He has proposed and nothing can change that. I believe that nothing happens without His knowledge. But the Bible clearly shows that God does not tempt men, nor cause them to sin. How does one explain that within Universalism, which seems to suggest that our every desire is initiated and our every action precipitated by God- regardless of whether it is good or evil?

Thanks

God bless

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@KDK,

That was very educative and the writer was balanced in his presentation although I must confess that it was really long. Can you please send me the writer's website address by email? : cleric_lxg@yahoo.com

Thank you.

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ok ooooooo

Sorry i was a bit hash mhn?

convicted[color=#990000][/color] pastors?

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There is no better word for insanity!

Y don't u just make a reference and let those interested go check it out?

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Has God not given the earth to man to tend, have dominion and multiply?

Most of the destruction on the earth has been caused by man excercising his freewill, and it seems there is worse to come,

Yes even if the excercise of freewill will cause harm to man, God has left a blueprint for man to follow,in order to avoid this potential harm.

However, it is within man's free will to utilise this blueprint.

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Even if that freewill will cause harm to her?

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@KDK, i thot i made myself clear. i believe in the two but my problem is that no matter how grouppoint tries to knit them together, they seem to grow far and far apart. They are two mysteries that seems to exist but this time around in a parallel form, which means they can never meet.

I aint running away like u said, but i will just sit back and enjoy the forum. You wont believe that i have turned in a Bible knowledge student all of a sudden because of this thread.

But how come, u KDK have stopped contributing, its only grouppoint and goodguy that seems to be contributing so far.

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@ Uggonna,

Contrary to what you think,I have been observing what all of you have been writing. I knew it will come to a time that some of you guys will argue urself out of point and become confused/ more enlightened as the case may be. You have decided to just do what I have been doing since;lay back and observe hence learning from the different wealth of knowledge being shared here.

But my dear, I am most happy that God has used this to make ur bible study life deeper. I am happy because you are searching and digging out the truths with the purpose of learning or as the case may be, supporting your argument and to this I say all glory to God.

God bless you.

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@Goodguy

Yes If she is going to make the wrong choice, God already knows.

However, God will not stop her from using her freewill. He may place things and people in her life to show her the way. But ultimately, the decision is still hers.

Let us not forget that God has already portrayed the ultimate goodness, by dying on the cross. Hence, each time she is making the wrong choice, she is the one refusing to accept that goodness of God,

By accepting Jesus as our salvation, we are accepting to make the right choice at all times, no matter how hard it is, afterall that's what Christ did in the wilderness, at the garden, on the cross,

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