«Home

Is God's Wrath Manifested By Eternal Fire At Variance With God's Love?

Love is the nature of God. Agape love to be precise. But God himself does not condone evil but punishes evildoers. He according to his son Jesus has prepared a place where there will be groaning and gnashing of teeth eternally. The presence of the Son, a member of the Godhead on earth is actually a manifestation of the father's love John 3:16. The question is this- does God's love expel/exclude/override/prevent God's wrath? Are they compatible terms? Let's find out first whether God's own definition of his own kind of love contradict his definition and manifestation of his wrath? Secondly lets put into consideration views point of various sects like the Mohammedans who dispute that the Christian bible is full of contradictions and may site this too as example. The Jehovah witness who teach that a merciful/loving God is unable to punish mankind on this scale of severity etc.

Avatar
Newbie
44 answers

Rom 1:18 (Wey) For God's anger is being revealed from Heaven against all impiety and against the iniquity of men who through iniquity suppress the truth. God is angry.

"Jesus Is Coming Back Soon, and Boy Is He Miffed!"

Or so goes the humorous T-shirt (the last word modified to protect the innocent). The "spirit of this world" revels in open wickedness and makes a joke of God's promised wrath. But the next time Jesus shows up on earth, the "party" will be over, and it's payment time,

Rom 1:32 (NEB) They know well enough the just decree of God, that those who behave like this deserve to die, and yet they do it; not only so, they actually applaud such practices.

Because God is holding back now, many think they are "getting away with sin". Because of God's patient mercy now, this is an easy error to fall into. But every sin ever committed will be accounted for. No one is "getting away with" anything.

C.S. Lewis: "God is the only comfort, He is also the supreme terror: the thing we most need and the thing we most want to hide from. He is our only possible ally, and we have made ourselves His enemies. Some talk as if meeting the gaze of absolute goodness would be fun. They need to think again. They are still only playing with religion. Goodness is either the great safety or the great danger--according the way you react to it. And we have reacted the wrong way."

Gal 6:7 (Phi) Don't be under any illusion: you can not make a fool of God! A man's harvest in life will depend entirely on what he sows.

Repent Or Perish

Eze 18:21,30 (NIV) "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?, Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

Zeph 2:3 (NIV) "Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the Lord's anger."

Who Indeed, And How?

Luke 3:7 (NIV) John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?"

God's love has been revealed for all time and eternity. "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us" (1 Jn 3:16). While we may not yet have apprehended the depth of this revelation of God's love as we ought, it has been fully revealed in the Gospel and we will have eternity to plumb the depths of it. Before the first advent, there were strong hints and prophecies of God's love, but these were not complete or consummated until Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection. But God's wrath has yet to be revealed, although we have seen hints and prophecies concerning it.

Just before the time of Christ's first coming, a wave of teaching became popular among the Jews which expected the wrath of God to be poured out on the "Kittim", or Romans. God's justice would finally be shown, the Jews would be vindicated, and the wicked would perish. Interesting isn't it, that unbalanced "wrath" teaching broke out just before God was about to reveal his tender-hearted love to the Jews, and even the Gentiles! And now, just before His second coming, spurious "love" teaching is breaking out everywhere. The severity of God's love as revealed in the Gospel has been reduced to mere sentimentality, and His justice and righteous anger cast aside as our ears itch to hear another bromide or homily from the pulpit. "Why, God was just kidding about that wrath stuff, he would never hurt a fly." "I don't like that hell fire and brimstone preaching," and so on.

But if God's wrath is what is to be revealed next, we had better snap out of it. We need to "heed the word of the Lord" in preparation so that we can answer the question "who warned you" instead of giving a vapid stare. If we resist even the hints now, we are positioned to resonate with the blasphemies of the Beast--whom we are told will slander the Name of God when his wrath gears-up in successive stages in the days to come. Will we agree with the antichrist that God is unjust when his judgments begin to pour out on mankind? Or will we have "stood in the council of the Lord" so that we not fall away in the great apostasy to come?

Brewing In The Clouds

Zeph 1:14-15,18 (NIV) "The great day of the Lord is near--near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the Lord will be bitter, That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, In the fire of his jealousy the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live in the earth."

Rev 19:15 (Phi) Out of his mouth there comes a sharp sword with which to strike the nations, He will tread the winepress of the furious wrath of God the Almighty.

Isa 66:15-16 (NIV) "See, the Lord is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For with fire and with his sword the Lord will execute judgment upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord,

Heb 12:29 (Phi) For it is perfectly true that our God is a burning fire.

Luke 12:49 (RSV) [Jesus:] "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!"

Ps 69:24 (NIV) Pour out your wrath on them, let your fierce anger overtake them.

Ps 76:10 (NIV) Surely your wrath against men brings you praise, and the survivors of your wrath are restrained.

The Purpose of God's Wrath Is Not Discipline

God's wrath, in this final sense, is not aimed to improve and make holy, but to destroy and eternally judge. God disciplines those He loves, for the good (1 Pet 4:17-19). True followers of Christ need have no fear of God's wrath. It is being "stored up", and is about to be directed toward those who reject God's revelation of Himself.

2 Thes 1:8-9 (NIV) He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction,

Nahum 1:2 (Amp) The Lord is a jealous God and avenging, the Lord avenges and He is full of wrath; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and reserves wrath for his enemies.

1 Thes 5:3 (NIV) While people are saying, 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not living in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

Christians need not fear the wrath of God. We have God's promise that we are His chosen. It is true that we should fear God, since He "bought us" and He has been known to put His servants through some pretty severe tests, but we have nothing to fear about God's wrath if we believe in and follow Christ. Wrath is not for the children of God. God may discipline, rebuke, or test us, but this is always constructive--for our good!

Object Of Wrath, Or Object Of Mercy And Glory?

John 3:36 (NIV) "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 2:6-11 (Phi) He will "render to every man according to his works", and that means eternal life to those who, in patiently doing good, aim at the unseen glory and honor of the eternal world. It also means anger and wrath for those who rebel against God's plan of life, and refuse to obey his rules, and who, in so doing, make themselves the very servants of evil. Yes, it means bitter pain and agony for every human soul who works on the side of evil, But there is glory and honor and peace for every worker on the side of good,

Rom 9:22-24 (NIV) What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called,

Rom 11:22 (NIV) Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

1 Thes 5:9 (NIV) For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paid In Full For The Chosen Few

Luke 13:23 (NIV) Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?"

Mat 7:14 (NIV) "Enter in through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Some people have a problem with this. It doesn't seem fair that most people are "objects of wrath", headed for eternal punishment just because they don't "love the truth" and follow Christ. How can God be fair and condemn the majority of humanity to hell?

Is God's Wrath Fair?

Jer 21:14 (NIV) "I will punish you as your deeds deserve, declares the Lord."

Rom 3:5 (NIV) But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

The only really unfair thing is that any of us should be saved at all! How does God "get away with" singling a few of us out, paying for our sins, giving us His Holy Spirit, rescuing us from our evil "bent"? Now that's a mystery worth pondering!

Lam 3:39 (NIV) Why should any living man complain when punished for his sins?

Is God's wrath fair? Yes: we, all of us, deserve it. Is salvation fair? No: none of us deserve it. It is God's free gift: unexplainable, unmerited, "unfair" if you like, that God should make any escape available to anyone.

A Temporary Stasis, An Incredible Opportunity To Repent

Rom 2:4-5 (Phi) Are you, perhaps, misinterpreting God's generosity and patient mercy towards you as weakness on his part? Don't you realize that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? Or are you by your obstinate refusal to repent simply storing up for yourself an experience of the wrath of God in the day of his anger when he shows his hand in righteous judgment?

Eph 2:1-5 (Phi) You were spiritually dead through your sins and failures, all the time you followed this world's ideas of living, and obeyed the evil ruler of the spiritual realm--who is indeed fully operative today in those who disobey God. We all lived like that in the past, and followed the desires and imaginings of our lower natures, being in fact under the wrath of God by nature, like everyone else. But even though we were dead in our sins God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, gave us life together with Christ--it is, remember, by grace that you are saved.

Rom 5:9 (Jer) Having died to make us righteous, is it likely that he would now fail to save us from God's anger?

Rom 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

All of us have earned our "wages", but God has cleared the account for a few of us. It doesn't seem fair, but it is very "good news".

Rom 11:22 (Phi) You must try to appreciate both the kindness and the strict justice of God. Those who fell experienced the justice, while you are experiencing his kindness, and will continue to do so as long as you do not abuse that kindness,

That we will escape is cause for great joy, and also for sober reflection when those who sin against us "get what they deserve". We should forgive and pray for those who sin against us while we can, and they may yet repent and escape the coming wrath if they see us standing in the "unfair" position of grace through faith.

Undeserved Suffering

Undeserved blessing is always welcome. But undeserved suffering? Yet think about the situation we are in: since we are "in Christ", we are free from God's eternal and consuming wrath. We are just as deserving as those who will receive it, but we will be treated differently. So we can afford to suffer a bit now, and share in "the life of Christ", because we know what will happen later.

Rom 12:19 (NIV) Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath.

How does this knowledge make it easier to "turn the other cheek"? It is to realize that we do not have to get back at anybody. God's wrath is being "stored up", and His anger and fury are about to be revealed.

2 Thes 1:5-8 (Phi) See how justly the judgment of God works out! He intends to use your suffering to prove you worthy of his kingdom. For God's justice will repay trouble to those who have troubled you, and give relief to all of us who, like you, have suffered. This judgment will issue in the final appearance of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power. He will bring full justice in dazzling flame upon those who have refused to recognize God or to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Gen 6:3 (NAS) Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever."

Are You Ready For The Day Of God's Wrath?

2 Thes 1:9-11 (Phi) Their punishment will be eternal loss--exclusions from the radiance of the face of the Lord, and the glorious majesty of his power. But to those whom he has made holy, his coming will mean splendour unimaginable. It will be a breath-taking wonder to all who believe--including you, for you have believed the message that we have given you. In view of this, we pray for you constantly, that God will count you worthy of his calling, and by his power may fulfill all your good intentions and every effort of faith.

God can hardly be criticized for giving people what they deserve, especially after telling us in advance again and again and again what the finale of history will be. If God is "un-fair", it is to a small minority who are spared from what we deserve. This is all the more reason to join that select group by taking advantage of the opportunity to repent, today!

2 Cor 13:5 (NIV) Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.

But I Said A Prayer!

James 2:14 (Phi) Now what use is it, my brothers, for a man to say he "has faith" if his actions do not correspond with it? Could that sort of faith save anyone's soul?

Eph 5:6 (Jer) Do not let anyone deceive you with empty arguments: it is for this loose living that God's wrath comes down on those who rebel against him. Make sure you are not included with them.

2 Thes 2:11-12 (Phi) God sends upon them, therefore, the full force of evil's delusion, so that they put their faith in an utter fraud and meet the inevitable judgment of all who have refused to believe the truth and who have made evil their pleasure.

Rev 22:12 (NAS) "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

2 Pet 1:10 (Phi) Set your minds, then, on endorsing by your conduct the fact that God has called and chosen you.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Matt13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers. 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!

Mark14:10 that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb.

Rom1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell

0
Avatar
Newbie

Is it me or are these God threads extremely boring these days?

0
Avatar
Newbie

@bobbyaf

it is a pity that you have decided to keep your God locked up in a book, when God is alive and still speaking to ready souls today guiding them on how to fit in properly with the changing consciouness of the world today.

many christians have what i call frozen state of consciousness because they were not able to make the leap from believe to knowingness.

The knowledge of God is so vast and it is being taught on a daily basis through your experiences and through your dreams. a mere book can never capture the full glory of God as it is revealed to souls who are bold enough to call God their father to reveal Itself to them.

there is no need for argument. experience still remains the best teacher. are you ready to allow God to reveal itself to you outside the confines of a book. the choice of course is up to you.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@bobbya

f

your reply to my last post really makes me laugh.

why is it so difficult for people to believe that they too like the old prophets in the bible can have a one on one relationship with God and learn directly from God without just relying on what was written in a book about other people's experiences with God

God is not a stranger to us. it is only us who do not know our relationship with God. God is our father and It loves us with a love that has no comparison.

God is always waiting for the soul who is bold and courageous enough to leave the human consciousness and enter the temple within to learn about Its will for us.

and about God not being a killer i am talking about the god depicted in the old testament who sends the Israelites to wipe out their neighbours.

i said that the god of the Israelite is not the supreme God. the supreme God loves all souls equally and does not give a damn about your religion or tribe or colour. the supreme God can never send a nation to wipe out another nation because It is the father of all nations.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Evil doer is one who has rejected and disbelieved Jesus(Jn17:3) so he is not entitled to eternal life but eternal death Dan12:2-2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. The new heaven and new earth is after Christ's millennial(1000) reign on earth Rev chapter 20 and 21. the lake of fire is not on earth unlike what the KJV calls "hell" Rev 20:14 Hell and the lake of fire are different so the lake of fire is unaffected by the new earth Revelation 14:10,11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

0
Avatar
Newbie

The same God has no qualms about wiping the same ISRAEL, his creations out should they follow the other nations to commit abominations like BURNING their children, taking INNOCENT lives, braking pledges/promises, pursuing vanity/vain things .wasting his resources polluting and corrupting the earth etc. God promised never to cause the ceasing of existence of Israel cos he is a faithful God( he made that promise to some of his servants, he cannot break it though does servants are dead) Israel took that as liberty but God showed them that he cannot make a/another promise contrary to his nature. he punished them severely almost wiping them out as a natio0n. if among the other nations God found some one faithful like he found in Israel he would have interceded for his nation and God would have spared. cos he will not punish the righteous with the unrighteous. if he does then their is no need being righteous since the righteous and the unrighteous suffer the same fate. God by punishing the righteous with the unrighteous will be going against his nature/word of justice equity faithfulness righteousness which he promotes and LOVE.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ bobbyaf

of course i seriously agree with you. i really have a lot to learn.

but i will prefer to learn it from God directly and not through a book written thousands of years ago filled with human errors of translation and interpreted by people as it favours them.

so i have become the seeker of truth as it is and this seeking led me to the temple within me in which the spirit of God dwells and through which i have come to know that my father God was not a killer, is not a killer and  will never be a killer.

Its nature is love and love alone.

thanks jagunlabi for coming back and making such beautiful posts.

0
Avatar
Newbie

if u are required by him to do so. Cos the christian God said of himself I am the LORD(YAHWEH), I changeth not. God, in his unchanging and non evolving nature acts today just as he acted in the past and will act in the future. and therefore if the conditions/context of the past apply to the present, God will do the same in the present (or he will use you(his disciples and also his creations/creatures) cos of his nature of Justice, equity and love. many a time in the present God shows more mercy in comparison with the same event, of the same context in the past. But more mercy means more consequence and higher standards cos the christian God must be just.

0
Avatar
Newbie

And for your killing thing, I have also addressed it

Do you expect father to hold the hand of another adult when he is crossing the street, since he should "Lead by example"

As I have said before, all what God tells us to do is for our own good, he is the objective power and his decisions, which may not be understood by you, as that child wont understand why his dad chooses to crosss the road without help, are well beyond the commands he gives us

0
Avatar
Newbie

jagunlabi

You have yourself just defined how God acts. . . thank you very much, . . All he tells us to do are out of LOVE as you said, perfect father-son relationship. You will find that everythin God commands is for our own good and not just for some "Hey break your CD player and throw it at the TV" control thing.

As that child would probably grumble that "what the hell is wrong with my dad, I hate holding hands" same way ur grumblin right now. perfectly understandable

0
Avatar
Newbie

The state of dualism borne out of the egoic state of consciousness, of being, enables love and hate to exist as two sides of the same coin.In the egoless state(or the kingdom of heaven) however, this state of dualism does not exist.There is only one state and that state is LOVE, pure and unadulterated LOVE.The state or nature of the true GOD.

This is the state of being that we humans are moving towards, the egoless state or the kingdom of heaven as the christians would call it.The kingdom of heaven is not a physcal place to be but a state of consciousness, a state of being.

In other words, the egoless state is a state achieved through the shedding of all emotions that can be seen as the opposite of love, like hate, wrath, anger, jealousy, etc etc.

Nobody will make the kingdom of heaven carrying all those baggages of negative emotions, and that includes yahweh himself.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Your own idea of God is that being in the bible called, yahweh or jehovah.An entity which i see as just the tribal deity of the ancient jews and which i totally reject as the supreme being that is the creator of the universe and aeverything in it.Your idea of God is that tyrannical and sadistic entity in the bible OT, while mine is the everloving and everpresent being of pure energy, pure spirit, that bathe all creation.So do you see the problem in this discussion?Because you and i do not share the same view of what God is, we will always be at variance at every step.So what is the point?

On your father and son analogy, which is very faulty as regards to this topic, the rule given by that father to his child comes out of pure fatherly love for the child, and thus his concern for the child's safety.It has nothing to do with the father's status as the, "Father" who has the right to order his child around just because he is the father.If the child does not heed his father's order and gets hit by a car, it is not only the child that will suffer the consequence of his disobedience, but also his father, bcause the two are bonded by LOVE into one.Whatever happens to the child, happens to the father.When the child hurts, his father will also hurt.That happens because of the bond of oneness borne out of LOVE from father to son and vice versa.And that is the same relationship between us and my own view of God, our supreme creator.That is one.

Secondly, when such a father teaches his son not to take another man's life because it is evil, and then turns around and kills a whole town, the child has every right to ask his father questions and even see his father as an evil person because of his genocidal actions.If the bible god feels that killing is wrong then he should lead by example, or else he is just another egoic and cheap tyrannical being. "Might is right" is just another motto for tyrants - whether of this world or of the heavens somewhere - and for their followers/admirers to identify with.Beings who are of love can never identify with such a motto, never ever.

To reiterate this point one more time, the god of the bible, to me, is NOT the supreme creator being, but rather an IMPOSTOR.He has way too many faults to even come anywhere near qualifying for the post of the supreme creator GOD.And so says the bible.That is the way i see it.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ benodic

You have a lot to learn.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ jagunlabi

Jagunlabi, ur throwin urself into a hopeless vortex of confusion.

Are you saying the person who makes a rule is neccessarily under the rule. Are you saying that when a father makes it a le that his son not cross the road without holdin the hand of an adult, that he, the father must then hold the hands of another adult when he is crossin the road.

It is very simple, God made morality for our own good, he is the objective power that can do whatever it wants without it being "wrong" as a father can cross the road because he can rightly observe what is going on in his surroundings. . . shikena

And please I believe, you have the right to air your view, and I would like to hear them too. . . theres no need for this to be some kind of insular thread, that looks at things from only one, convenient point of view.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@bobbyaf

i believe that i have every right to question God's actions since i am It's son. if my father takes any action that i do not understand it will be very silly of me not to try and find out why.

my dear i do not need any one to tell me the truth about God. God is my father and Its spirit is within me.

if there is any thing i need to know about God, i simply go to the temple within and ask. i always get answers. the truth is never in any book but is within you.

of course i do not expect you to understand. but my experiences remain my authority and no one can take that away from me. God can never be like a human

being. creating people with one hand and destroying them with the other hand. why don't you try asking God directly instead of relying on what is written in a book.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ benodic

The only persons God made as humans were Adam and Eve. The others descended from them. Secondly, having allowed humans to come into existence doesn't mean He doesn't have the right to take back their lives if He sees fit. You are in no position to question the Creator's right to take life, since you didn't grant life to anyone. Keep that in mind please.

Obviously, and unfortunately, in all of your experiences you never spent the time to learn the truth about who God really is. Its never too late though. God has His servants that will guide you, and this fora provide quite a few.

One doesn't exhibit love naturally. Its not a default attribute of humans. We have to learn it. We can only act out in our lives the spirit of love if our parents and members of the community did a good job in teaching the attributes of love. Don't forget that sinful tendencies pass down from one generation to another. We are all born with selfish desires and attributes. Its only as we come to a knowledge of God, and allow Him to take control that we are able to reflect His attributes.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@jagunlabi

i have already made my contributions and please i wish you would stop sitting by the side line and get into the fray.

your fine insights is really needed on this thread. please do not mind chinedumo

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ chinedumo

God doesn't have to eternally punish evildoers to prove justice. That thought is diabolic by nature. Satan is at the heart of such a thought, and not the bible. The problem with some Christians is their gross ignorance of biblical themes. They run away with a verse or two, and make a religion on such.

The absolute reality is that Jesus didn't die on Calvary to punish sinners eternally. He died to save sinners from sin. That was not a threat. To argue that Jesus' death if refused by evildoers will land them in a place to be punished eternally, makes God out to be threat. Evil doers will be punished alright, but not eternally.

Besides, if we are expected to live on the earth when it has been made new, then where will this place of eternal punishment be? Secondly such an argument brings into question whether or not really dealt with the sin problem after all. As long as evil doers are being punished sin will be present, and it also means that Satan will be present. As long as these beings remain alive, then they would have been given eternal life.

John 3:16 made it abundantly clear that only those who believe on Christ will have eternal life. As long as evil doers are being punished, it means they would still be alive, and if they are alive for eternity, it means they have eternal life.

You can't have the redeemed enjoying the new earth, and its glory, and the evildoers somewhere else being punished eternally in the same new earth. Not only is it a silly thought, but ridiculous if you ask me.

The weight of biblical evidence is against such false teachings.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@

Don't confuse God's justice with the way we see and understand wrath. God alone is just and hence He being wrathful is justified. In fact when He is, its because He is forced to be such. When any set of humans reach that stage where their purposeless existence becomes a serious threat to others, then God who is Creator, and who has the absolute right to take back life, can demonstrate anger, which in no way can be seen as being contrary to His attribute of love.

God is absolute and we dare not use human values and standards to judge Him. He alone prescribes and describes the concept of good and evil.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Perhaps benodic can contribute.

0
Avatar
Newbie

That's an astute point there.   Jagunlabi, care to expatiate?

0
Avatar
Newbie

@zodiac61

there was no reconciliation to be made.

i discovered that the god depicted in the old testament is not the supreme God at all.

Yahweh is the tribal God of the jews and of course the jews being his chosen people, he has no qualms sending them to wipe out other nations who do not recognize him. he is a jealous God indeed.

through my spiritual experiences i was able to know that the Supreme God is love and love alone and really does not care if you worship It or not.

It is interested in only one thing and that is that soul grows spiritually into its full divine nature which is LOVE.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ benodic,

I am interested in knowing how you reconciled the god of the old testament with the loving god. Your post does not deal with this point.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ Zodiac 61

thanks for echoing my thoughts on this matter.

growing up as a christian i had a very big problem reconciling the God that is supposed to be love and the one in the old testament that sends the Israelites to wipe out nations filled with people that he created too.

my spiritual experiences showed me that God does not kill anyone because It is love and love alone. It gives us an infinite opportunity, lifetime after lifetime to become lovers of life like It and then become perfect vessels for the outflow of its love.

It is only the absence of love that turn people into killers in the name of God

0
Avatar
Newbie

There are many strange religious beliefs and doctrines in the world - from men reincarnating as rats to wine turning into blood. But one must say that the Hellfire teaching, the idea that God has made a fire to burn people for eternity takes the cup. That a man who lived a life of "sin" for, say, 80 years can be sentenced to an eternity in a hot house is just. . .

0
Avatar
Newbie

It is always amusing when I hear about the power of the Christian god to bring to restore life. I think that you will find that there is nothing original about that statement. Every one who believes in a god will tell you that their god has the power to restore life.

You bandy the word 'evolutionist' like an insult. I do not think that the bible is a fake (thinking allows for the possibility that it is true). I am saying that the bible is not the inerrant word of god, I am also saying that there is nothing divinely inspired about the bible.

Trying to excuse cruel behaviour on the part of god by explaining that he had to do what he did because of the time and circumstances is, frankly, dishonest. An omnipotent and loving god should judge everyone by the same standards, no matter where they were or when they lived. If a human being acted today in the manner the old testament god acted, we will all be shouting genocide. Why make excuses for him?

0
Avatar
Newbie

uh-huh? so, when i act "like him" by going on genocidal rampages, murdering whole cities, both the innocent, women n children, then i'm gonna be described by him as one walking in love cos "its who he is"? where they do dat at??

0
Avatar
Newbie

Remember that the christian God has power to reverse and restore to life. just like he did in the case of JOB. He can restore the yrs which the locust caterpillar, Joel 2:25 when u kill u do not have power to bring to life so u are not the same wit hthe christian God

the examples u have sited above are incomplete and inconclusive . Demonstrate the innocence of the punished

in relation to their punishment. how is their judgment is unjust/undeserving. Remember if u think the bible is a fake these stories ought not bother you cos they neva happen according to ur theory esp if u are an evolutionist.

GOD is love I neva said he is hate but that he can be angered.

You can site examples of how u think an All-loving God by ur understanding was supposed to act in those circumstances in the same condition of temperature and pressure and time frame

the Christian God demands u to be perfect like ur father in heaven is perfect. He cannot ask u to do something he cant do. When u act like him, he describes u as one walking in love cos that is who he is. If there is anything the Christian God required to be done that he himself did not do in the given circumstance plz point it out.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@ jagunlabi

you are very correct. yahweh and the devil are one and the same.

thank God that we are in the age of reasoning now. if you had made this statement during the Spanish inquisition you would have been killed immediately.

the supreme God really does not need our worship and It is not a jealous God.

like i said earlier, the  nature of God is love and love alone.

the problem we face is mankind's understanding of God. very few people have really bothered to ask God to reveal itself as it is to them. rather they rely on stories told by primitive people thousands of years ago.

0
Avatar
Newbie

i have to admit . . . the devil is a smart dude!

0
Avatar
Newbie

same way god doesn't have to conform to the flawed analysis of ancient jewish men(who couldn't even write but had to past down their fables orally) of who or what he/she is, or what they thin he should be (like vengeful, wrathfull, jealous, anger, n the ego of a tyranical maniac dat needs his ego fed by eternal praises n worship from mere mortals)

any coincidence dat these uniquely "chosen people" are the people who wrote the books/came up wit the fables themselves

0
Avatar
Newbie

@jagunlabi,

i strongly agree with you even if others do not.

the supreme God that i know is beyond Human emotions.

It does not destroy sinners out of anger as the christians think.

its nature is love and love alone.

we are the ones that create our own problems by doing bad things to our neighbours and when the results of our actions come back to us we start saying that God is punishing us or that satan is tormenting us.

the law of cause and effect, which was what Jesus was talking about when he said that what you sow is what you reap is there for only one purpose and that is to teach us how to love. and finally the god of the old testament is the tribal god of the jews and not the supreme God

0
Avatar
Newbie

@Jagunlabi,

I was responding to rossike's point about Yahweh.

0
Avatar
Newbie

@zodiac

Shouldn't you have quoted the OP's post, instead of rossike's?

0
Avatar
Newbie

The True God did not create hell,i dont even believe it exist and he is Love and not hate.Satan is hate.

0
Avatar
Newbie

But, as i have stated my own opinion on the issue, based on my own ideological structures, i will now step aside for your fellow believers to take it from here.I am quite interested on what their views will be on this topic, really.

0
Avatar
Newbie

^^ and you consider yourself right thinking because?

0
Avatar
Newbie

u are looking at wrath from the human perspective and not from the overall perspective. Your fiercest anger/wrath in ur human ability is insubstantial/nothing to God in terms of his own ability. if he does the same thing u do he is even far to merciful cos he is far to mighty. His mildest mercy is far is far to milder than yours as u have said cos his might is far mightier than yours.

0
Avatar
Newbie

This topic is not for those who do not believe in the existence of God as the supreme being. cos if u don't believe in his existence it wouldn't bother u whether he is loving or wicked. this topic is not on the existence of God find some other forum for that, or otherwise, answer the Questions i asked, in the context I asked them. it is assumed that by participating u believe in the existence of the Christian God as he claims to be and what he calls himself God. Discussion is with the intent to oppose or propose the consistancy of God's words in the context of his love and his wrath.

0
Avatar
Newbie

^^^well put. couldn't have put it any better. hitler's wrath is childs play in comparison to this "all loving " bible god dat supposedly possess the powers to handle thing more lovingly n rationally if he decided

you mean the defintion/words of ancient stone aged tribal savages with little ethical consideration

0
Avatar
Newbie

In religions, the socalled wrath of God happen to be the wrath of MEN borne out of their own prejudices.As a result, whatever goes against their prejudices faces THEIR wrath, which they then translate as GOD'S WRATH.

God is not wrathful, MAN is.And i am not talking about the bible god here, because the bible god is nothing else other than the mirror image of the ancient wrathful man of the desert stone age civilizations.

0
Avatar
Newbie

according to you wrath is sin certainly not according To God and his word. God is not wrathful i.e easily angered but can be angered actually he is slow to wrath and abounding in mercy. I specifically emphasized God's own definition of Love Agape Love and not your own definition of Love. so show me how God by his own definition/word contradicted himself. i state again God Is not wrathful i.e easily angered. Anyway thanks for ur response and promptly too.

0
Avatar
Newbie

To answer the title question, "Ofcourse it is!"

The manifestation of wrath itself is a SIN.So the "all loving God" broke his own rules there.An all-loving being, whatever that being might be, cannot be wrathful.All-loving and wrathfulness is an oxymoron.So therefore, the bible god's desired reputation as an all-loving deity is in variance to his wrathful nature.That is why the bible god failed the test for the position of the supreme being in the most woeful fashion.

0
Avatar
Newbie
Your answer
Add image

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.