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Is The Rapture/end Times Real?

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Doctrinal history

The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritan father and son Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. [4][5] The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pretribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.[6]

John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first proposed the pretribulation rapture in 1827.[7]. This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren in England. Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren Movement which impacted American Christianity, primarily through their writings. Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pretribulation rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregational members [8]. Popular books also contributed to acceptance of the pretribulation rapture, including William Eugene Blackstone's book Jesus is Coming published in 1878 and which sold more than 1.3 million copies, and the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909 and 1919 and revised in 1967.

The Catholic and Orthodox churches as well as the Reformed denominations have no tradition of a preliminary return of Christ and reject the doctrine, in part because they cannot find any reference to it among any of the early Church fathers and find its biblical foundation weak.[9]. Some also reject it because they interpret prophetic scriptures in either an amillennial or postmillennial fashion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture

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89 answers

My brother I am moving on. I have very little time to splits hairs with you.

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"Its obvious we won't remain in the air. The bible says we will meet Him in the air. The phrase "so shall we ever be with the Lord" does not mean we will be with Him in the air forever. I mean if I were to say to my wife, "honey I will meet you in Los Angeles, and so shall we spend the rest of our lives together" Grin Does that mean it has to be in Los Angeles?"

But where is the air? You have wrongly assumed that the air means heaven, which is not scriptural. You have to take the scripture in the light of other scriptures and the overall intent of God. He created your forebearers on earth to live forever. The devil caused man to sin, leading to the sacrifice of a perfect blood- Christ. After that sacrifice, what gives?

Time lapse? I am talking about His return, and how the bible has described that return, and what is expected when He returns. Don't confuse the signs of His second return with the actual return itself.

Oga, there is a time lapse. It is clearly written in your scriptures. It is captured in all the synoptic gospels. Read Mathew 24: 30 - 34. Take note that after gathering his elects, the end is still not yet come! These are Christ's exact words not mine. That explains the fact that he comes like a thief. Your becoming a member of his kingdom is by him calling you (by election),. That also expalins the linkage to the days of noah.

He is not yet King of Kings so He cannot rule. Now He is High Priest making intercession and making atonement in the heavenly judgment.

Again this does not tally with what Christ himself says. "All powers is given unto me in heaven and in earth ", (Mathew 28:18-20). If all powers are his, what stops him rulling? He has to rule in heaven and on earth, at the coming of his kingdom. You have to understand that the Revelation is not arranged essentially in exact chronological order. You will miss the understanding if you assume it was[b] one event per chapter serially[/b]. Rev 20: 4. shows clearly that he saw souls that were killed for Christ at that era and they lived and reigned with Christ. That life was in the spiritual realm, that was why he saw their "souls", not their physical bodies. They were in that period priests of God, they ruled from the heavens spiritually with Christ. They were able to rule with Christ because they were lucky to be baptized of the Holy spirit, hence they earned the right for the first ressurection to heaven, therefore the 2nd death hath no hold on them. Rev 20:6. The 2nd death occurs if you are sent to hell with the judgement. It does not imply a physical death as such. In other words, they cannot go to hell! Let me also enlighten you about Ressurection. Ressurection occurs after death, it is simply the parting away of the spirit or soul from the mortal body. Some ressurrect to hell, to the abys, to the ocean, to heaven, depending on their works. I know you will now say but Christ ressurected on earth? Christ was more or less a spirit in his ressurrected body, but he had to show his disciples that he did ressurrect, to strenghten their faith. Notice that he cautioned them not to touch him as he has not ascended to his Father John 20:17. The time to get close to him physically will be when he regenerates or returns to the world the 2nd time.

That matthew 24 passage concerning two in bed is a most mis-understood text. Let me show you why. Matthew 24 is based on two separate themes. One on the second coming of Christ and the appropriate signs, and the other theme that deals with the destruction of Jerusalem and the signs that will precede it.

Jesus used Noah's flood as a parallel illustration to explain what it will be like in the last days just as it was before the flood destroyed the wicked back then.

The key words are "taken" and 'left" , Now who was "taken" by Noah's flood? The wicked or the righteous? The wicked of course! Now who were left by the flood? The righteous of course!

When Jesus comes He will find two classes of people. The righteous, and the wicked. In this case it will be the righteous that will be left, and the wicked that will be taken. You may ask how would the wicked be taken? Its simple the bible didn't say how, but based on the parallelism given by Jesus, it would become logical that the wicked will be taken by the destruction that attends Jesus' coming, just as how the wicked back then were taken by the flood. Now how are the righteous left? Its simple, they are left alive, or they have remained alive.

Notice that the words "left' and "remain" mean the same thing, and that is why Paul used the very word "remain, " to describe the chosen ones when Jesus returns speaking of the destruction. Listen:

You are right that Christ made several prophecies in Mathew 24. One clearly dealt with the fate of Jerusalem which occured like 40 odd years after he died. The other was about signs of his coming, and the final one was about his coming and gathering his elects. See my explanation above. Read vs 30-31, with understanding the you will understand that there is indeed a lapse. It is also clear in Dan 7:9-14. If you read Rev from chapter 4 to chapter 5, you will notice that people were gathered on the throne of God and his Christ, in worship. These are during the release of the seals, with all the hardships on earth Rev 5 vs 16&17.

1 Thes. 4:16,17 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul here is alluding to who will physically survive Christ's advent, and that is the righteous living. The wicked will be struck down by the glory of Christ. Another way to put the phrase "alive and remain" is "remain alive"

Paul's highly spiritual account should not be taken literally and should not be interpreted in conflict with what Christ said as well as what other scriptures said. If you check my earlier posts on this thread I analyzed thes 4: 16, 17. Goodluck in your search for Him, but please refrain from using words like "clueless"!

Two different passages with different contexts. Coming as a thief in the night means that there would be some who will be taken unawares. A thief doesn't make it known when he is coming. Point number 2 is that Paul is addressing the physical characteristics of Jesus' second coming. It will be visible, and well as audible. You dare not use one passage with a totally different meaning to nullify another passage with a totally different truth. You just don't play with God's words that way. I expect better!

You are right, his elect will know him and gather around him. "where the eagles are there the carcass is". The carcass is the kingdom of God, with God and his Christ present. The eagles are the elects.

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lol, you've mixed so many things in the above post I think you should just go 'head and focus on your school & work, when you have more disposable time, holla @your girl aight? We can continue this some other time.

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Thanx for ressurecting that thread Chris, however as long as there are questions about scripture then you will find me giving my witness on behalf of Jehovah. I am a normal woman, who enjoys doing a lot of things and one of those things is NOT being ridiculed becuase of my faith. I do not like having people spread lies about my faith and me due to the fact that this is the religion I choose, however this is what Jehovah God has asked of me and what Jesus said we were to do. Go forth making disciples. At times I would rather be on a beach somewhere sitting in the sand however I am sure there are alot of things that God would rather focus his attention on than the constant moral decline of humanity. So here I am.

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haha. . "Real" Christians vs "not so real" Christians?

@chrisbenogor. thanks for clearing that up.

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Here is my take on what will happen at the rapture:

What happens when Jesus comes for His church? Several things:

1. The living righteous and the resurrected saints are caught up to meet Him in the air, (see 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17)

2. The living wicked are struck dead by His glory and brightness,

2 Thess. 1:6-10 say, "6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

In 1 Thessalonians Paul speaks of the first resurrection and associates it with the righteous who died. John in Revelation 20: 5,6 say this, "5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The rest of the dead in verse 5, obviously means the wicked who did not resurrect when Jesus came back the second time. They will be resurrected after 1,000 years. John like Paul associates the first resurrection with God's elect who had died before Jesus came back. I'd go on to say that the first resurrection will comprise all of God's people from all dispensations, which includes those who lived before the cross, and those who lived during and after the cross. The Cross of Jesus spans all dispensations.

The earth will be empty of humans during the 1000 years.

The second coming of Jesus would have been so gloriously powerful and majestic that the earth will be broken up. John describes it as follows - Revelation 6:14-17 "14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  15 and the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Peter describes it as follows - 2 Peter 3:10-12, "10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

The only life forms that will survive are Satan and His demons. According to John in Revelation 20 Satan is bound for 1,000 years. It will not be a physical binding as such, but a circumstantial one, meaning since the earth has no human form for him to tempt and deceive, his "hands are tied", so to speak. He will be left to contemplate for 1,000 years his fate, and what a mess he made of things.

Even the OT prophets saw what the day of the Lord would have been like:

Jeremiah 4:23-26 say, "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger."

Jeremiah 25:33 says, "33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground."

Isaiah 24:1,3 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. 3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word."

So there is unity in what the scriptures have to say concerning the destruction that will occur at the day of the Lord. Jesus is coming back as Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. He is not coming back to give anyone a second chance. Humans had ample time to pay attention to the gospel. Jesus said, "This gospel shall be a witness"

All the mockers of the bible and Jesus, God's Only-Begotten Son, will be rudely awakened. Soon and very soon we shall see the KING.

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Why are Christians so anti-Christ? They read the bible without understanding! If we cannot understand what Christ said are we worthy to be called Christians?

Christ said, the righteous shall inherit the earth, , not the heavens. Why will you go to heaven? Were you created in heaven? Last time I checked Adam and Eve were meant to rule and inherit the earth, but the devil thwarted that. So what changed since then? Christ came to reconcile us to His Father. yes, after that the initial plan is no more derailed but eternally valid.  Its only your spirit at death that ressurects to heaven provided you are righteous.

Christ said  that in thr regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory ye shall also sit on twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Mathew 19:28. Note that the disciples are now dead, so He was not referring to their lifetimes. He was refferring to when they will regenerate.

The 144,000 are virgins that will rule with him on earth. Other people will be wth him, but these are special because no guile was found in them.

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@sowhat77

There are many JW threads here why not resurrect one? there are better issues to discuss there.

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The rapture will be a real experience, but I don't believe its secret based on what I have understood the bible to mean. I also do not believe that anyone will be left behind to face the Anti-Christ either, as most denominations tend to teach.

In fact the word doesn't occur in the bible, but like most words, it has taken a meaning which is the second coming of Christ.

Anyone reading the bible and taking a serious look at end time events would logically see that the bible is dead accurate.

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The bible talks about the great tribulation as something that "if in fact did not occur" no flesh would be saved but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. This does not tell us that chosen ones will be taken away before the great tribulation but it holds out the hope that they along with the ones that will inherit the earth,will survive the great tribulation on earth.

If you look at Revelation 7:9,10, 14 it says After this I looked and behold a great multitude which no man could number from every nations from all tribes and peoples and tongues standing before the throne and before the lamb clothed in white robes with palm branches in their hands and crying out with a loud voice salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to the lamb, these are they who have come out of the great tribulation( in order for them to come out of the great tribulation they must have gone through it first) so these ones that revelation talks about must be people that actually experience the great tribulation and come out as survivors.

Now for those who may still say this referres to all chosen humans being taken to heaven after the tribulation I will again reffer to Revelation 14:1-3 (look it up for yourselves) Where it talks about 144,000 standing with Jesus , who have been" bought from the earth".Also at Revelation 7:9 it spoke of a great multitude which no one could number. If the number 144,000 were not a literal number then it would lack meaning as a contrast to the great crowd from which no one could count or number. And again at Mathew 22:14 Jesus said regarding the kingdom of the heavens:There are many invited but few chosen. If a crowd is so big that no one can number them then they would not have been described by Jesus as being a few.

Then if you remember Revelation 7:9 quoted before you will see that it does not say of these ones that they were bought from the earth  to be with Christ on heavenly mount Zion. The description of them standing before the throne again is not literal but it refers to these ones approved standing. (Revelation 6:7 -because the great day of their wrath has come and who  is able to stand) Saying they are standing before the throne does not mean they are directly in Front of the throne. (ex. when someone says this man is in good standing with the congregation)

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No matter what David says about my beliefs I will continue to preach what I believe to be the truth. Just as he comes to this board with his beliefs I will come with mine. It is up to the individual to believe what they will and I nor he should have the right to try to influence someone else with insults and degrading speech. So I will refrain from arguing with him directly because I am not here to argue against David but to argue on behalf of Jehovah God and the teachings that I believe to be false.

With that said, I will say that there are going to be ones caught up in the clouds with the lord, but it is not in a literal sense. Again I will say that the bible speaks of 144.000 that have been bought from the earth, already chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. These are the ones that scripture was speaking of.But what it was concerning was the fact that have not died at the time of Christ's coming. These ones will die but will not remain in death awaiting their Resurrection to heaven. They will instantly"in a twinkling of an eye" be taken to heaven. When other es of this chosen group have died we do not know exactly when God resurrected them to heaven but for these ones that are left until Christ's coming will probably never experience death because their Resurrection will be immediate.

Now there is a lot of talk about about Elijah ascending to the heavens, but if you look at John 3 :13 Jesus clearly stated No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man Also again I will say that at 2 Kings 2:1 it says when God was to take Elijah in a windstorm up to the heavens it did NOT say He took him into heaven. If you compare Genesis 1:6-8 it says and God went on to say let an expanse come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters7 then God proceeded to make expanse and to make division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and it came to be so.8 And God began to call the expanse heaven. And in verse 20 it says[b]And God went onto say Let the waters swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon to face of the expanse of the heavens[/b]

So we see here that the bible often times referred to the sky as the heavens. And to use a little reasoning here we also know that the literal heaven is a dwelling place for spirit creatures only, it is not a place that birds fly in.

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So are you saying you accept Jesus coming back but not the 7 year tribulation? Is this your whole problem? I'm inclined to think otherwise cos if this were the case you would not have titled the thread the way you did.

The traditional understanding/definition of the rapture is the coming back of Jesus and instant taking away of the saints, and meeting Jesus in the clouds. If your beef is with the tribulation why attack the "rapture"?  

 So a non-christian who doesn't believe in God and the bible is suddenly the authority on what the events of "Rapture" should be? Why is her version/definition of the rapture the right one and what we christians believe the wrong one?

Anyways, I better understand you seeing that you've adopted her version of the what the rapture is. If your (her) whole beef is with the 7 year tribulation then clearly state that - and not title a video "Debunking the Rapture" like you've both suddenly been granted level 9 access to previously unavailable evidence to support your beliefs.

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LWKMD

You guys are still at it,should I hunt down Jesoul for you?

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And please show me how Elijah and Enoch have anything to do with the rest of Mankind. . .PLEASE.

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I made this post 2 pages ago, and you are still saying the same thing. I'm not interested in debates that aren't headed anywhere. Which is why i left on friday.

IF THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE VIDEO I POSTED, WHY ARE WE NOT DISCUSSING WHAT THE LADY SAID. damn!! watch the video, listen, tell me what exactly the issue here is

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haha. Jesoul. I have told you to check something out in the Bible and get at me. . .u hve not done that. Everything i tell u about Paul depends on that. I'm not about to explain stuff nd have it dismissed. It is a waste of my time.

I also explained that what the lady "rapture the lady means is the 2 part rapture with a 7 year tribulation period. Which is different from what Paul "described". This picture u're trying to paint of me avoiding ur questions isn't accurate. And all it takes is for someone, anyone, to go through the thread. Now, have you looked up the stuff I asked you to?. I read everything u posted, and resonded. U don't treat my posts and requests the same way and u expect me to continue such a debate? I'm sorry I will not do that. It is a 2 way street.

I said no such thing. I said they grew up at a time when stuff about an afterlife was introduced into Jewish thought, and that the Jewish faith does not believe in afterlife (fate of all mankind).

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Exerpts from my book - the Accurate Knowledge of the Truth

Paul’s Letter did not mean a Physical Rapture

We will now examine Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians where he encouraged them in the Lord. This is another misinterpreted scripture. Paul wrote in a highly spiritual language, which is easily misinterpreted. 1 Thes 4: 13 -18.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Brace yourself as we dig deep into this scripture. Verse 13 to 14, tells us exactly what we know from Christ’s sayings. That is the fact that the righteous ones believers who have passed on will regenerate or re-incarnate with Him. When a true believer dies, he resurrects to heaven. The proof of this is in the scripture where we see Christ promising one of the thieves that today he will be with him in paradise that means the thief will not perish but will also resurrect with him. When believers resurrect, it follows that when Christ re-incarnates into the world, they too will re-incarnate into the world. This confirms the beatitudes where Jesus said that righteous shall inherit the earth (Mat 5:5). We can now understand Paul’s admonition that they should sorrow not for their departed ones. By the understanding of the Thessalonians, their departed ones had lost the chance to witness the manifestation of the kingdom of God. This was a cause of great sorrow for them, and Paul wanted to clear that up.

Verse 15 to 18, now deals with the mechanism of how their departed ones will also be part of the expected kingdom. In other words, the exact way it will happen. Paul says that the living will not stop those who are dead from being with the Lord. That means our association with the Lord in his new advent is governed by how righteous we live and not how long. Paul goes into deep spiritual language describing the spiritual method of that regeneration in Verse 16. The Lord descending from heaven with a shout is a spiritual depiction of the coming of the Lord with glory and power from the highest heavens. The Lord will not physically descend from the sky with a shout! At the risk of sounding immodest, a schoolchild would understand that verse in the same way – Christ drifting physically from heaven. It has a deeper meaning, I am afraid.

To be “caught up” together in the clouds means to have one spiritual accord with the re-incarnated Christ and other re-incarnated children of God. Remember he promised to manifest himself only to his elects and not to the world (John 14:22). These are people in one spiritual accord with him. To meet the Lord in the air does not mean to be suspended in the sky with the Lord. If I may ask, where does the air start? It starts from the ground, period. Therefore, to meet the Lord in the air means to be with the Lord in the world. The air is in the world! That is why he said, “and so shall we ever be with the Lord”.

If we assume that the rapture doctrine is genuine, then does it mean that we shall be with the Lord forever in the clouds? How does that sound to you? Does it sound reasonable or consistent with any Old Testament prophecies or with the Revelation shown to John? The answer is obvious. However, what Paul meant was that we shall be with him forever in the world. The concept of rapture is not supported anywhere by the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ or the Prophecies of the Old testaments. It is only the false teaching of the anti-Christ. That teaching has gone a long way to damage the Christendom. The disciple Peter in his second Epistle warned about the interpretation of Paul’s gospels. 2nd Peter 3 15-16.

5 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Paul himself wrote on the certain confusion of genuine doctrine with half-truths, which was inevitable in the years to come. Romans 16: 17-18.

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

We are thankful that not all is lost. Some Christian groups preach that the kingdom of God will manifest on earth. These groups including the Jehovah Witness have a fair understanding of what will happen. Notice I used fair and not accurate! Let me even ask the obvious. If he comes in from the sky, will it not defeat all the things he said about coming like a thief in the night. Into which country will he land?

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I already did . . . i'm tired of recycled questions.

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here. i got the verse for u.

Genesis 5:21-24 21When Enoch was 65 years old, his son Methu’selah was born. 22After the birth of Methu’selah, Enoch lived another 300 years in close fellowship with God, and he had other sons and daughters. 23Enoch lived 365 years in all. 24He enjoyed a close relationship with God throughout his life. T[b]hen suddenly, he disappeared because God took him[/b]

please explain

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show me the verse in Genesis that says Enoch went to heaven, please. or one that says where God took Enoch.

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Let Jeseoul speak for herself. Last time I checked she could express herself. Wsup? do u need her to come and bail u out?

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I read your source twice . . . i already debunked it for the nonsense it was. A "source" claiming to trawl through the torah looking for places where it talked about the afterlife . . . completely IGNORING the two glaring cases where men didnt die but went to heaven directly? lol that's enough to put that "source" in the thrash can where it belongs.

Again i repeat . . . i dont need google to build my own faith, i know without it atheists would have no argument at all since they cant reason on their own. The constant recourse to "source" isnt because you are honest about the truth but because that is the only way you can even attempt to "debate".

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I only provided one source. And offered you the whole of google to find any of ur own

haha. I rest my case!!

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Read the torah. I'm tired of this disgraceful attempts to dance around facts.

Here is the first question to ask - do jews believe in an afterlife? SURE THEY DO!

Why havent jews questioned the story of Elijah in the bible if they believed an afterlife was nonsense? What "jewish source" are you asking for by the way? NONE OF YOUR OWN SOURCES HAVE BEEN JEWISH!

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show me a Jewish source that uses Elijah to support an afterlife for all mankind. Jews don't just make doctrine up like Christians do. If God didn't directly tell them something, or one of their main prophets, it doesn't matter who says it they won't accept it. Thats why they didn't accept even Jesus. Rabbi's can make stuff up, but they are never accepted as official. Thats why It's so hard for u to find a Jewish source to support this claim of yours. If u could find any reliable source you would have presented it.

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Yes you have "quoted the bible" . . . but half the time MISREPRESENTED IT! Dont bother about me asking for God to open my heart, its been open for a while and i've also known for ages about the false doctrine of the JW. I'm not as interested in taking you up on your heresies just yet.

I would suggest you start reading the bible ON YOUR OWN, ask Christ to help you understand it in His own way . . . many of you simply regurgitate the bible verses and the automaton explanation for it given to you by your leaders.

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Again stop with the nonsensical moral equivalence.

1. The bible also says - occupy till i come no? Well i'm doing just that. What are you doing here instead of preaching about God and His kingdom?

2. God has more than "grand promises in store for humans". I'm tired of "christians" whose only reason for "loving God" is to claim "grand promises". What happened to talking to others about the need to REPENT OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? Read through the entire gospels, Christ spends more time calling the sinner to repentance and speaks far less about "promises".

Ye seek the hands of God all the time . . . what about His face?

You dont recall a time Christ was disgusted at questions posed by His followers . . . that is completely true . . . but one thing you hypocrite forget is that those His followers were 100% faithful to the gospel even on occassions when they didnt understand it. compare that to Christ's response to mockers, scoffers and theological liars like the scribes and pharisees!

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Also I have quoted from the bible directly but you continuously ignore the scriptures I post and say I am promoting bible falsities. Please open your heart and ask God to show you for himself. I am only a human, a student of the bible, who like you is trying to draw closer and closer to God. Pray and ask him to reveal to you the truth.

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The bible says you will be able to tell what kind of tree it is by the fruit it produces. If you were really doing what the bible asked of you David you would be out preaching about God and his Kingdom and the gran promises he has in store for humans. We are supposed to follow Jesus's example and go forth preaching and teaching. I don't recall anywhere in the bible where Jesus became disgusted at his followers for asking questions.

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I havent insulted you EVEN ONCE on this thread. If you're looking at the insults pls search your own posts . . . the only thing i did "wrong" was to point out the glaring fact that you have been lying all along on this thread, misrepresenting the bible and trying to pull the wool over our eyes with long nonsensical posts that say exactly nothing.

No you and JeSoul werent "doing just fine" . . . you were too busy dodging her questions until she got fed up and left.

I dont need google to support my "theology". I only need produce verses from the bible.

I repeat again - many of you would not be here if google did not exist to assist your false knowledge.

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yeah, thats why Jesoul and i were doing just fine till ur dumb Bottom showed up. Jesoul and i disagreed strongly and not one insult came out of it. Fukn .

Sorry? be sorry for yourself o . . look at this clown. i gave u the whole of google to pick ur source from and u cant find anything to support ur clown theology. Who the fukc are u kiddin? u think the people readin are as dumb as u?

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the thread derailed when the OP found out he couldnt force his lies through.

Sorry, i wont sit by and watch frauds peddle lies against the bible. I know you guys prefer it when you're the one bleating for proof.

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haha. . chris. u know this aint my style. . but this gay won't just get off my dikc. wetin man go do?

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You guys should cut this out abeg, I hate seeing good threads like this derail, all this confrontation will not work abeg abeg una.

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hahaha. . . I'm still waiting for you to show me how Enoch "ascended into heaven", and how that means the rest of the world will too.

IGNORAMUS!!!  When you get to church tomorrow, u betta go and and start asking ur bastard pastor for answers. . the guy just dey sell u jagba jantis. .u better open ur eyes, clown!!

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Here is the simple reason why: the two examples i gave are not theological jingoism . . . i simply QUOTED THE BIBLE VERBATIM. You have a choice to reject the witness of the bible.

Meanwhile our JW poster has done two things they are very good at - misquoting bible passages to support spurious theology and cooking up her own doctrines that have no standing in the bible.

The jewish belief in the rapture wasnt what we were debating . . . i'm tired of people shifting the goalposts when their lies fall flat. You were specifically seeking for ANY biblical proof that the jews even believed in an afterlife or why God didnt mention heaven or hell so much in the OT. Infact according to you, the bible didnt start talking of heaven or the apocalypse until the book of Daniel (alleging that this was because of the influence of Greek culture) . . . well you were WRONG!

The doctrine of the rapture did not become relevant UNTIL AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ . . . that does not mean that heaven or hell didnt exist prior to that. One of Christ's parables even talked about Abraham in paradise and the rich man in hell. If the jews did not believe in an afterlife i'm sure Christ's parable would have been seriously questioned by those who heard that parable. Its impossible for Christ to have talked about Abraham in paradise if the Jews didnt understand what paradise was or whether dead people even went anywhere in the first place.

But it does puncture holes in your false theory that the jews didnt believe in an afterlife until the book of Daniel.

this is silly . . . did the Jews also believe Enoch or Abraham was coming back to forerun the Messiah too?

Saul used a witch to call up the spirit of Samuel . . . why would he do that if they had no knowledge of an afterlife for the dead?

This argument is porous and i have already dealt with it. I get bored with clueless who continuously recycle the same foolish argument all the time even after you've answered it.

What is utterly ridiculous is that this is precisely what you are doing by this thread. You're imposing your own flawed and degenerate thinking on the torah . . . when others debunk your false allegations you start accusing them of "imposing their theology on the torah"? How convenient.

Did you not IMPOSE your own theology on the torah when you falsely claimed that Daniel's prophecies on the apocalypse and afterlife where only because of Greek influence? Is that what the torah told you Daniel based his prophecies on?

I notice you disgraceful hypocrite have tried all the tricks in the book not to respond to JeSoul's verses . . . you were CRYING SO LOUDLY for the verses EVEN AFTER she had posted them . . . i reminded you that she had, she has since reposted them AGAIN yet you keep running and LYING!

You just described yourself unfortunately.

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The rapture is generally understood as the second coming of Christ which was described as a single event. This idea was then developed into a two stage process, and several passages strung together to support it.This 2nd view is the one the lady in the video speaks against. She explains that the verses used have little or no relationship with each other, and that this expectation is not consistent with what the biblical narratives actually describe to christians. (Note. the lady does not say anything against the traditional understanding of the 2nd coming of christ, but the idea that people will be snatched away from the earth for 7 years)

I went further to try to explain how that whole idea of an apocalypse type thing got into Jewish belief. . . they never believed any such thing to begin with. and then our bible lord, my davidlylan, proceeded to invent new Jewish theology for the sake of his bugged out perspective.

The bible verses have been posted by davidylan and Jesoul several times already.

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Haba people, try and make it easy for us to read now. Em lets first define what rapture is and the events of the rapture, then the biblical passages follow.

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I am sorry but there is no need to snoop around for anything in this system of things because these things now are temporary and will not last. The bible states that in the new earth no man will build and another take occupancy(Isaiah 65 :21,22). Life on the new earth will be fare for ALL humans and no human will have to do without like the present system of things. It also says that[b] in the new earth the former things will not come to mind (Isaiah 65:17)[/b]

The earth and everything of the past will be gone. Jehovah God says he he will be making ALL things new (Revelation 21:5)

I do not want to argue with you about scriptures. I can only hope and pray on our behalf that God will open your eyes to the truth. He is a God of love and does not wish for one single person to be destroyed on the day of his wrath(2 Peter 3:9) However Satan does want humans to be destroyed. That is what is to blame for all of this confusion regarding religion and even peoples blindness to the facts, for Revelation 12:9 says that Satan and his demons are in the vicinity of the earth and they are misleading the entire inhabited earth. Look in your bible and you will find the quoted scriptures. Jehovah wants everyone to know the truth and the scriptures are there waiting for you to examine.

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@davidylan

haha. . .its funny how her numerous direct and literal verses from the same bible are JW nonsense. But your two CLEAR CUT contrived examples are correct.

On the whole of google you can't find anything on Judaism (that isn't from a christian website) to back up ur claim that Jews believed in rapture . That Elijah was taken up into the heavens does not equate to Jews believing in rapture. One incident of something is not the same as the entire mankind. Jews believed Elijah (who never even died) was coming back to fore-run the messiah. . .some even thought he was John the Baptist .  They didn't think he had gone to heaven in that sense. If there was a heaven and hell fire that was man's fate, I REPEAT, you think God would have mentioned it in all his numerous appearances and speeches to the people of Israel (Abraham, Joseph, Moses, David, etc). Stop imposing your theology on the Torah. Pharisees did it, the Gospel writers did it, and we still haven't finished sorting thru their mess. Deluded clowns like you just keep piling on more and more mumbo jumbo by the minute.

Plaese, Mr. "final authority on the bible", explain why all those verses she quoted don't speak to the fate of mankind, but the ones you quoted do.

The fact that u dismiss anything that comes ur way shatters all ur credibility. U're just a deluded shithead without the slightest clue.

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typical JW nonsense . . . and i'm sure you've been snooping around to see the houses you will inherit in this "earth" right?

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where pls?

no, such JW nonsense isnt in the bible . . . show us pls.

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Another thing, before you dismissed it is nonsense did you look up the scriptures that supported that? Or did you just assume that it sounded crazy so it must be?

Before dismissing this please take a look at these other scriptures that support

Mathew 5:5- Blessed are the meek ones for they shall inherit] the earth.

Psalms 37:29 -The rightous shall possess the land and dwell forever upon it

1st Corinthians 15:50- Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God

Revelations 20:6 - They shall be preists of God and of Christ and they shall reign with him a thousand years. (these are the 144,000) And they will reign with Christ over earthly humans. The humans the bible spoke of at Mathew 5:5

Again Proverbs 2:21- The upright will inhabit the land (or dwell on earth in some bibles), and men of integrity will remain in it.

Lastly 1 Thessilonians 4 :17 And we Christians cuaght away to heaven shall always be with the Lord.

The bible talks about what will happen to two diffrent groups of Christians. The ones that will inherit the earth and the ones that will be given the gift of a life in heaven. Look in your bible if you doubt these scriptures

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I quoted the scriptures. If it is nonsense then you are saying the bible is nonsense because it is in the bible.

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It is in the "bible".

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Yes Elijah did ascend up to "the heavens" but not into heaven. Heaven is a spirit realm and one must die first and be resurrected in "spirit form" in order to enter into heaven.( 1Corinthians 15:50) The occurrence regarding Elijah was not him being taken to heaven but him being carried off to another place on earth. As it said in 2Kings 2:16 where it said the spirit of Jehovah may have picked him up and thrown him upon one of the mountains or valleys.

It even states later in 2 Chronicles 21:12- Eventually there came a writing to him from Elijah. If Elijah had been taken to heaven he would not have later been able to write a letter to Jehoram.

I realize that some Cristians believe that the rapture is sort of an escape plan that is going to happen to faithful Christians when the end comes however only a select few are going to be given the gift of spiritual bodies and life in heaven ruling with Jesus Christ as king and that is found at Revelation 14:1-3. This group is often referred to as the "little flock". It says -I saw and look! The lamb standing upon Mt Zion and with him a hundred and forty four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their forheads. And they are singing as if a new song but the hundred and forty four thousand who have been bought from the earth.

So what of the rest of the faithful Christians? Well they are going to inherit the earth. A earth that will be free of wicked people and people that refuse to  believe that God is the rightfull ruler of the earth and all humans on it. That scripture can be found at Psalms 37:9,11- It says For evildoers themselves will be cut off, but those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will posses the earth.10.And just a little while longer and the wicked on will be no more, and you will certainly give attention to his place and he will not be11. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

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The best way to deal with these deluded fools is to ignore them. The more you reply to their aimless posts, the more you encourage them to continue to spew their hatred against anything related to Christianity. Just ignore them for once and they will realise the futility of their devilish intentions.

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what have i been insinuating all along? Did i say they died? So you can only witness the afterlife through death? What a deceitful phoney.

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Enoch and Elijah never died. Do u know anything about ur faith, anything?

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I read their article AT LEAST TWICE. I know the stories of Enoch and Elijah are in the very same Torah they allegedly referenced. Its strange and SUSPICIOUS that they quoted the torah from Lev to the book of Daniel and completely ignored the two most glaring evidences for the afterlife.

The lost cause here is really you. you just dont know it. But go on walking in darkness.

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