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Is Trinity Biblical?

Trinity is explained as the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God), that these three are also co-equal.

If these three beings are co-equal, who created who? Did Jesus create God or vice versa. If God created Jesus, automatically, that means God is greater, that contradicts the co-equality.

If the holy spirit is a person, how could it poured on people and they get filled with someone. Can a being with a personality be poured on someone.

If the holy spirit is a being, could it be more powerful than God the Father, since all miracles works are actually product of the holy spirit?

Jesus categorically stated that regarding the time of the end no one knows the day or hour only almighty God. If they were equal, y would one know something and the other does not?

Can God die? If u say he cannot, how do we explain that Jesus was dead three days, he even commited his life to his father before he drew his last breath, knowing God almighty would restore him back to life.

By the way if trinity is so true and dundamental to christian life why is it that, that word NEVER occurs in the bible?

If these questions can`t be resolved then surely, trinity is the biggest contradition in Christianity.

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The pagan of arabia have 3 idols they believe as one, they are Lata, uzza and manata same thing with father, son and the holy Ghost. Now you know

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Trinity does not exist in the bible, it is the practise of pagan

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Have you always believed in the Trinity?

Did you ever make a thorough study of what the Bible says on this subject?

If God were part of a trinity, would not his Word, the Bible, clearly and directly tell us so?

‘When Jesus was baptized, a voice came out of heaven, saying: “You are my Son, the beloved.” If God were truly on earth being baptized, would he project his voice up to heaven and back so that those words could be heard on the earth? Would that not be misleading? Would God, “who cannot lie,” do such a deceptive thing?’—Luke 3:21, 22; Titus 1:1, 2.

JESUS often prayed to God, whom he called Father, and he also taught others to do so. (Matthew 6:9-11; Luke 11:1, 2) In prayer with his apostles—only hours before his death—Jesus petitioned: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:1, 3.

Notice that Jesus prays to One whom he calls “the only true God.” He points to God’s superior position when he continues: “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” (John 17:5) Since Jesus prayed to God requesting to be alongside God, how could Jesus at the same time be “the only true God”?

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Jesus is not God, the disciples never worship jesus

john 17:25

jesus said 'O righteous, the world has not known thee, but i have known thee, and these know that thou has sent me'

is it possible for god to send god ? You have the answer

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When you are not spirit led and read the Bible you fall into a trap, that of not making any meaning from it. That was why the Ethipian Eunuch wanted someone to teach him. Zauma, you need to be thought, you read the Bible like the Koran.

Since you read the Bible, meditate on John 1:1-5. After reading it come back to the forum for analysis

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@zauma, all of your descriptions are according to the flesh, the divinity of Christ is according to the Spirit as the Spirit never dies.

Romans 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.(If he didn't resurrect, He would have been seen as a mere man, but the fact that the Spirit which left when He died on the cross returned to the flesh cleared all doubts, thomas had to touch Him to believe)

God's Spirit residing in Christ made Him divine, its like this He carried God's Spirit in its fullness(incorruptible), understanding the fact that a man's spirit is his real self and not his flesh would make us understand that Jesus real self was His Spirit and not the flesh.

according to the flesh he is inferior to God, died, suffered, was bruised, ate,drank and was born of the seed of david

according to the Spirit of Holiness(which is God as God is a spirit) He is God and He never died.

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pls the person that was referring to the original greek bible,do you understand greek,aramic or hebrew?

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Who do you want to serve God The YHVH and His messiah Yeshua or christianity.

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@bastage

y are u tryin despirately to patch a concept that is clearly flawed. The word Trinity is not even in the Bible. It was gradually introduced into the church by early popes

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You do not have to necessarily understand before you believe, but if you so wish there is nothing stopping you.  Thomas chose to see the physical evidence of the resurrected Jesus before he believed but there are more blessings for those who choose to believe the Words of God before they can fully comprehend it.

Trinity is just a term used to describe the nature of God, and as I said before God is both hidden and at the same time revealed.  He is revealed manifestly in nature and in His Word, this may at times be in shadows, types and pictures, and this makes us know about Him, but He is hidden in the sense that we cannot fully comprehend Him with our finite minds.  The old testament painted a picture of what was revealed in the New Testament.  We have the evidences but we don't have all the facts and this is the reason why we have to believe the One who has all the facts and has recorded them for us in the Bible and this is what makes our faith certain.  For Him to reveal this to us we need to have a living relationship with Him so that He can communicate Himself to us in accents still and clear.  So yes, we can understand the trinity and have a picture of it in our finite minds until we receive the revelation knowledge of Him.

Let us see another analogy or paradox from the world of science by a scientist and theologian named Alister McGrath:

"An example of this from the world of science concerns the nature of light. By the first decade of the twentieth century, it was clear that light behaved in a very strange way - sometimes it seemed to behave as if it was a wave, and sometimes as if it was a particle. It couldn't be both at once, and so the cry 'contradiction!' was raised. How could it be two totally different things? But eventually, through the development of the Quantum Theory, it was found that this contradiction expressed a fundamental difficulty in grasping what the nature of light really was. In other words, the contradiction did not arise on account of light, but on account of our difficulties in conceiving it."

McGrath went on to show that the nature of light was such that two contradictory models had to be used to account for its behaviour whereas on the Divine level we require three contradictory models.

"Most of us know what light is without needing to think about waves, particles or Quantum Theory. Light is what we need in order to see, to do our everyday business, to read and write. It is what comes out of the sun, and to a lesser extent from the moon. It is what we get when we switch on electric light bulbs or strip lighting. If we were physicsts, we might want to think about light in much more detail and go into the full complexities of it - and so we might start talking about waves, particles and Quantum Theory. But we don't need to do this in order to make use of light or to recognise it when we see it."

The fact that we cannot fully comprehend the Trinity does not mean that it does not make sense.  When I switch on the television or communicate on a telephone or the fact that I am communicating with you on NL right now I do not know how they work, but there is an explanation beyond the limits of my understanding and which does make sense.

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you may have missed my posts, go back and check.

Wait before I get carried away which ethiopian christians are you talking about? The coptics? because we can nip this in the bud immediately. SO just let me know. People are a bit confused on whether the coptic church has a different belief from the Catholic Church, they do not, they're just not in unity with us.

but just so you know the Church is aware that the ethiopian church has manuscripts from early christianity, infact it is there that some of the church's manuscripts were buried. the manuscript on the assumption of mary is located there.

so what you think is true may not be true after all.

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@lady

For the sake of people reading this thread stop making factually wrong statements.

For starters, I did not say anything about it being true or not because in the end that is up to belief. Obviously what you know about the gospels is limited to what you see in the bible, I called you out earlier that the authors of the gospels were unknown and you seemed to vanish from that thread.

What were the conditions that made the first council of nicea hold?

The ethiopian christians have a bible that is made up of books I am sure you never knew existed, while the church persecuted and burned every other book that seemed to portray Jesus not to be God, so why do you even think the people that choose and defined those books even know better than you do?

I say it again that it is a concept the protestants failed to drop when they broke out, you and david could have been at logger heads by now.

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Ok I am trying to understand why you would think that because the ethiopian christians don't believe in the trinity, therefore the trinity must not be true.

Have you heard of heresy? DO you seriously think that the ethiopian christians are the only ones that were lost on the trinity?

Do you know why it is the word trinity was used to define the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

It's not because we just needed something to do. It's because people were beginning to come up with different beliefs on Jesus and a lot of people became confused. So to put an end to it, the Church defined the Trinity as it actually is to dispell any heresies, not that it worked.

Could it be that the ethiopian christians do not understand just as you do not?

It is not a concoction by the Catholic faith, it has always been there. It just became defined for our understanding and to get everyone on one accord as we should be.

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What I called circular reasoning was the whole you have to believe before you understand, if I believe why do I need to understand.

Secondly lets examine what you are saying, first you say the trinity is not comprehensible, then you go on to give me analogies like water existing in three states or some space dimension thingy.

I don't want to sound irrational but which is it can the trinity be understood or not?

If it can then go ahead and give analogies and we will examine them, if not then say so and quit trying to explain.

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There is only one God the YHVH. Here O Yisrael the YahVeh the Yah he is One. There is no other God.

Saint Paul says He(Jesus) did not make himself equal with God. So how can you say Jesus is a god.

Those who blaspheme can never enter paradise.

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The concept of trinity is hard even for the christain scholars to explain. . . jesus is god. . .jesus is the son of god. . . jesus is god's first creation. . . jesus ,god and the holy spirit are the same. . . . all of the above are found in the bible. . . so which one should christains and believers of the trinity doctrine choose and accept?

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If you are looking for the meaning of the biblical concept of "Trinity" the best place to look is in the Bible otherwise called scriptures.  It is just like saying that you want to see the evidence that will prove that President Obama is in the White House, the best thing to do is by looking into the White House to see whether he is there or not.  The fact that I use the Scriptures to explain my claim of the concept of "Trinity" should not be seen as circular reasoning as you have suggested but should be reasonable, rational and logical.

The fact that you have a different worldview (evolutionist) and a Roman Catholic background (theist evolutionist) will certainly cloud your judgment when you read the Bible and will definitely give you a different interpretation but I feel that the best thing to do is to come with an open mind and you will soon realise that the God of the Bible is not only rational but is super rational and that we got our rationality from Him who is our Creator who created man in His own image.  Below is logical view of a former atheist and how he explained the concept of Trinity:

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-68474.0.html

The paradox use above makes a good attempt to describe the three dimensions of God, that is, the Triune God logically but it still falls short of accurately illustrating the concept.

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I am trying hard to avoid a correlation and causation battle here, people keep mixing up things.

What is Logic?

What sort of conclusion can be gotten from wrong premises?

I think your problem is that you think that logic is the answer but you are wrong, like I said it is a better way not that there are not other ways belief for instance being one of them, but that does not make it right!

Logical answers obtained from correct premises is always the best way to go aside from that why can people not leave their high horses and admit that they do not know?

If genesis started with the author saying "I think in the beginning" then there will be no problem, then we will know he was only speculating, and that does not make it right.

What you believe does not translate as what is right they are two mutually exclusive things.

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@bastage

Quantum theory works you say, and we have evidence to support that it does.

Where are those that support the existence of a perfect God?

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@olaadegbu

Sorry but your reply is pathetic, self serving and very circular reasoning.

It puts your belief beyond questioning and succeeds in explaining nothing at all.

Please give me reasons as to why Christians in ethiopia do not agree to this concept of the trinity if it is not the doing of the catholic church which the reformation could not really shake?

What is even more funny is how you try to use logic to try and explain it and when that same method is applied in another way you suddenly say that it is only through belief that you can understand it.

No matter how you cut it, Logic, history and evidence to find truth other than on a self-defined, self-reliant and unquestionable revelation that only considers itself authoritarian is always a better way to go.

Simply put its just a belief, and beliefs are nothing but beliefs.

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I hope this covers all that the sincere seekers need to know about the Trinity.

For more on the analogies and scriptures on trinity go to the link provided below:

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-68474.0.html

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Yes. But that's the point. It's illogical evidence that supports it. Therefore we have to rely on belief to explain why we think it works.

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@olaadegbu et al

Logic cannot be escaped even when you say the spirit is leading you Logic is a system of reasoning you use to reach a conclusion from premisses; It is internally consistent and has nothing to do with the natural or the supernatural.

Even beliving in the trinity has its own logical steps the only problem one will face is if the conclusion is what you desire to achieve.

So stop making factually wrong statements like that just because the clergy has always played that wild card.

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We can't rely on Scripture to discount Christ as being a creation.

John states that "In the beginning was the Word". It is widely accepted that Christ was the Word.

Therefore, Christ was there right at the beginning.

My advice is not to get too hung up about finding a logical explanation for the structure of the Trinity. Instead, look for the idea behind it.

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Jesus was quoting scriptue. I can state a quotation about myself. So this passage doesn't refute Jesus being God.

I can easily be reading something about myself that is written and read it verbatum.

For example

Image for a minute that I am an actress and a tabloid just wrote that I am having an affair with Brad Pitt.

This is the article

~Lady~ was seen going to dinner with Brad Pitt in Sunset Beach in Miami, Fl. They spent the whole day together and was seen last night partying.

Now imagine that I just saw the article and I am reading it out loud to my best friend. So I decide to read verbatum.

This is the convo with my friend:

Me: omg, they so totally lied

friend: about what?

me: about me and brad pitt

friend: what does the article say?

Me: ~Lady~ was seen going to dinner with Brad Pitt in Sunset Beach in Miami, FL. They spent the whole day together and was seen last night partying.

So do you see that I can speak of myself in the third person, especially if it is in quotation? I can recite something about myself verbatum.

So the above passage does not refute Christ as being God.

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Does your body and word have minds on their own and do they operate without your brain sending a command to them? This is a serious question and would like your answer if I am to continue.

Maybe you missed my explanation on the word trinity not being in the Bible, but I am not one to be redundant, go back through my posts and read.

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Oga Jesus Christ became a creation, but that is not to say that he didn't exist before. In order for something to "become" it had to have had a nature before it became another nature.

That's what makes it even more special and even more important, because God himself was willing to suffer himself as creation in order to save his creation. That is profound. That is true and ending love.

Actually if I look at my image in the mirror that is me. It is a reflection of myself. Unless you do not understand what a reflection is.

When one takes a picture, does that mean that the person in the picture is not one. If it is not one then who is it. How can you image be any different from you.

Or is it that you don't know what an image is?

Jesus Christ gave us a face to God. He made God visible for us to see. He is the image of the Unknown one.

As for scripture please don't try to put your own view in to it. To interpret scripture is to interpret it purely as what it is, instead of making it become what you want it to be.

Now you did the typical thing as anyone who wants to distort scripture to their own view, you quoted out of context and interpreted out of context.

Colossians 1:15 continues on

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For in him were created all things in heaven and earth, the visible and invisible.

AS IN HE IS THE SOURCE, GOD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL CREATION, SO THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION IS THE SOURCE OF ALL CREATION.

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Well I am sorry but your knowledge of Jesus Christ is wrong. He is the Word of God made flesh, he is the Son because he is the WORD. There is no hierarchy with being the Word and the Son. It is the same thing. The Son is the Word made flesh. Being word doesn't mean he is less equal. It sounds to me that you want it to be that Jesus and the Father are not equal.

Unfortunately we don't always get what we want.

So you can want it to be that way but it isn't.

Jesus is not just the Son of God he is the Word of God.

Just as ~Lady~ is one of the names I am called or descriptions of me. It doesn't make me anyless me.

If your name is Emeka Chinonso Igwe, you are Emeka, you are also Chinonso, you are also Igwe. If someone calls you Emeka and another calls you Chinonso, does it say that your name as Chinonso make you any less than your name as Emeka. Or won't you be the same person.

Look people you can try to convince yourself anything, but it doesn't change the truth.

SO the SOn and the Father are co-equal. Thanks.

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@Lady, Bastage, Olaadegbu

We have discussed this very extensively in some threads in which I couldnt locate some, but here are some for you supporters of trinity.

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-68474.0.html

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-68474.32.html

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-68474.64.html

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why does it take men like you and other god people to tell us who and what god is? why does god use people to propagate and promulgate his messages and teachings if he doesnt really want people to fully understand him. . . . this post is your personal belief and observation. . infact its your personal opinion about who you feel your god isthere are a lot of christains out there who will strongly disagree with your assertion. . . all people do is give their own personal and sometimes flawed opinions about issues and events after which they will then athuoritatively declear it as god's position. . .

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All these boils down to the incomprehensibility of God.  In latin they say finitum non capox infinitum which means that the finite man cannot grasp or contain the infinite.  We cannot squeeze God into a box that is, we as finite creatures work as finite planes.  We cannot capture everything about God and the moment we are able to do this God then ceases to be God. 

God transcends the limit of human reason and therefore He is not only rational, He is super rational.  That is the reason why there is a limit to what the finite mind can comprehend when it comes to the nature of God.  To know God is different from knowing about God.  To know God we have to depend on revelation knowledge because God is both hidden and revealed, which theologians term as Deus abscondiitus.  God remains hidden to us, however, He has revealed Himself to us manifestly, verbally and generally, through His Word and through His creation.

God has given us a working knowledge of Himself to us that is functional for our living and daily relationship with Him.  He has also given us a language by which He communicates with us and the use of analogy.  Everything nature tells us something about God. Rom.1:19,20.  For more of how God has revealed Himself to us through the analogy, nature and His Word check the following link:

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-68474.160.html#bot

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If any comprehension is impossible as you argue. . . . .then surely you are rendering all of religion and the ''industry''

it supports largely irrelevant

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I agree - but this is the same with any other conception of God we have - it cannot be accurate!

even interpretations of El Shaddai El Yireh and other names, are limited by our ability to absorb this. In that sense, it is a moot point to speak of being able of adequately conceptualising any aspect of Divinity.

Even something as simple as 'God is good' is beyond our comprehension - questions like 'How does a good God allow people to suffer when not at fault?' still arise, even amongst believers.

Is the trinity biblical? It is an interpretation based on biblical evidence, even if it was not explicitly described as such.

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So far as it is nothing but an Attempt, and one that falls short, so therefore cannot be an accurate depiction of Divinity then I can accept that.

I have no argument with John1:1. Except I would not translate it as the Word was God, but rather God was the word. It might seem trivial, and it probably is, but a such a trivial exchange is all that is need for some interpreters (like the JW bible) to say 'and the Word was a god'.

However in the original the order is like this Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. Which reads In Arche (the beginning) was the Logos (λόγος), and the Logos was with the God, and God was the Logos. If you notice the sentence finishes with Logos not God. There is no way that can be interpreted as the Logos was 'a god'.

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I like to see a mystery as a jigsaw puzzle that has not yet been fixed but can be fixed by holding the big picture in hand even if it takes time.

Confusion on the other hand is like a puzzle where there are parts that do not even fit into the big picture and they just try to force them together.

Why could Jesus not simply say there is a trinity and teach about it?

I think before anyone starts quoting the catholic canonized bible they should understand the circumstances under which this book was compiled and even try and read about the council of nicea.

Better yet give us a definition of what the trinity is and what the nature of the trinity is?

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Secondly, this 'concept' is based on scripture such as John 1:1, unless of course you are disputing the commonly (and I believe correct) interpretation that the Word was God, and that Jesus is the word - also confirmed by Jesus' words that "I and the Father are one"

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This story is a lie.  Perhaps it's just allegory, not historical. How did the child know that the guy was thinking about the trinity, he never told the child, and by what criteria did the child come to the conclusion that understanding it was impossible.  

Again, I find an abuse of the word Mystery.  Mystery does not mean that which is unknown.  But rather that which is Unknowable in Human terms of knowing.  I might not know where my car keys are and describe their whereabouts as a mystery, but once I find my car keys it's whereabouts ceases to be a mystery.  In this case the 'mystery' is not integral to the whereabouts of my car keys because in time the mystery vanishes.  However the Mystery of Divinity will never vanish because Mystery is integral to Divinity.  Divinity does not fall into any human epistemological categories, so it is impossible with the human mind to some day come to know Divinity.

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The concept of trinity is a product of instituitionalized religion, it as no biblical bases and it is actually blasphemous. Jesus christ worshipped his father, he cannot be equal to him.

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Horus,

thanks for your contribution. I`ll do research in that direction to assertain for sure. What's interesting is that even if you take that portion you quoted to be true were true, it would not even mean trinity. If the spirit, father and son are one what do you mean? Are they one person or one purpose, Thats simply ambigous. If trinity is so true Jesus would never say his father is greater than him. When Jesus taught his disciples to pray he only made reference to the santification of God's name. Why did he not say they should sanctify the spirit? If the trinity were true it would mean that God the father, and Jesus relied on the Holy spirit for their power. Then when we pray we should pray to the holy spirit rather than "God the Father", because the power is with the holy spirit.

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People would call me mad when I said things like, “in your Bible there are added verses to support your trinity theory.” Christians say oh he’s crazy, or he’s mad. Christians claim that a trinity exists in the Bible, when it doesn’t. I repeat, yes, you can find the words “the father, the word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one” in 1 John 5:7-9 in any version of the Bible. However if you were to consult the original manuscript of the original Aramic or Syriac Bible, you would find that these words don’t exist and that they were added in.

If your preacher, teacher, minister, pastor,deacon or any other religious leader really cared, he would take time out to research the original language, rather than rely on poor translations. If they knew how to translate from the original Syriac (Arabic) and Galilean Arabic, the verse 1 John 5:7 that you are familiar with today did not exist. Neither did it exist in the original Hebrew and Greek that were translated from these original languages. It wasn’t until the onset of the Roman Catholic Church that this distortion was made. The Roman Catholics inserted the trinity verse when they tranlated the bible from Greek to Latin. Notice I say “inserted” and not “translated” because, as I already said, the original Greek did not have this verse. However, you will find some Greek translations that have been translated from Latin or English, and it is in these Greek translations that you will find either the whole trinity verse or only a portion of it.

1 John 5:7 is surrounded in controversy because there are two versions of this verse. So-called scholars say the verse used in most bibles today is either not the original verse, or they say that it is only partially genuine. These so-called scholars continue to argue back and forth on this subject because they really don’t want to admit that the trinity really has no basis in the teachings of Jesus.

I will refer to the Holy Bible from Ancient Manuscripts by George M. Lamsa, which is a bible that is translated from the original Aramic or Syriac language :

6 This is he who came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by water and blood.

7 And the Spirit testifies that that very Spirit is the truth.

8 And there are three to bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three are one.

When you read 1 John 5:7 in your standard bible, which in this case is the Ryrie Study Bible (King James Version). . . you will read this:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Do you see what happened?? . . . You will find that the original verse 5:7, has been actually pushed up to merge with verse 5:6.

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@ ezemama

If someone was lying to me on the truth of trinity, would concluding that the whole idea is a mistery not be an easy excuse for not answering fundamental questions? The intelligence humans have was given to us by God, for good reason, that we would not be decieved, but understand our faith. God would not judge us for blasphemy, because he reads hearts and knows our motive is to know the truth about him, not to disrespect him.

If i asked where did God come from, someone could say we should not bother think about it, that it is a mystery. But the bible refers to God as King of eternity. So God has always been there always, so no mistery.

Why should it be claimed that God and Jesus are equal, when he categorically stated, the father is greater than i am, and in work and deed he reflected that view. Read John 14: 28,29. This is not my idea, it is in the holy bible, and this scripture is no mistery. However, it directly conflicts with what trinity says God is. Rather than doubt this scripture i would doubt trinity because that is the part that men inferred. When making inferences error is a possibility. I would be glad if someone can carify how Jesus himself could say God is greater than him while trinity says they are equal.

Concluding that it is a mystery is another way of avoiding the bone of the issue. When we ask questions we learn more,

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Sometime ago i heard a sermon in church i can't remember the exact topic of the sermon but the message struck me and has stayed with me ever since, The issue of the Trinity is something we should be very careful when discussing least we commit blasphemy, There is something known as "Divine mystery" and that is what the holy trinity will always remain to we humans no matter how knowledgeable or vast we claim to be on liturgical matters, On this topic we will always be groping in the dark. A great philosopher decades or probably centuries ago sat at, the beach, as he watched the waves her was trying desperately had to decipher the true meaning of the holy trinity day-in, day-out he kept coming back to the beach where he did his best thinking, one day as he sat there seriously and deeply in thought he became aware of a child of say about 3 or 4 years old trying to dig a huge hole in the sand and failing miserably, after observing him for a while he walked up to him and asked what he was trying to do, and the child replied that he was trying to dig a hole where he will fill all the water in the ocean, and the philosopher couldn't help himself and burst into laughter, after laughing to his hearts content he told the child that what he was doing was very, very, impossible and the child replied then why are you doing the same thing, Now i wonder if there's any lesson to be learnt here

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@ ezemama

Am a christian (baptist) for sure,

I have doubts though of some beliefs i have come to accept over the years. I`ve been thinking lately of the truth behind these fundamental beliefs and found that "trinity" has many question to answer. Who am i worshipping, God, Jesus or spirit. Jesus Himself said to satan, at Luke 4:8, you must worship

the Lord your God and serve only him. He did not say they, but said "Him". That "Him" must have a one personality.  I want to worship only God almighty the creator of the universe through Jesus as God instructed.

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Dear Lady,

There was a point in time in past were Jesus did not exist. Consider this very clear scripture: Colossians 1:15, which refers to Jesus as the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation.

To be the first born of all creation means exactly what it means. Jesus was created first before all other creation. If Jesus was created he cannot be equal to God. If you don`t agree with Colossians i will love to hear your view on that scripture. Also note that the portion says he is the image of the invisble God. An image may look very much like the person it models, but the image is not the person.

God is a person. This indicates that he has a personality, such as power, love , justice, etc. But God is a spirit person. The word person does not only refer to humans with flesh and blood. The holy spirit is not a person. The scripture has made reference to what God said, what Jesus said, but the scripture never speaks of the holyspirit as saying anything, or reflecting the attributes of God, like Jesus did. The holyspirit is simply Gods power that he uses to accomplish his will, and can infuse this power into people.

If Jesus was God then there was no need to pray at all and request permision to ressurect (eg Lazarus) or when he prayed on the loaves of bread and fishes? You take permision from someone above you not vice versa.

Why also is the word Trinity not found in the bible if it is so fundamental to christian belief?

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I really enjoy ur logical point as Jesus been the word of God. U're right to some extent, but dont u think that Jesus is more than just word? The Bible made us 2 understand that Jesus is a Son of God the first creation of God. That made Him a supernatural spiritual person. He Jesus even said that His father is greater than Him. The WORD there means that He is God's spoke man. So a son can not be equal with is father. Thanks

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First of all looking at your repsonse to bastage, you are not here to ask questions but to give ridicule. You can at least try to hide it. Why ask questions if you've already made up your mind as to what the answer is.

Jesus is not created but begotten, he became a creation, but he himself is not created.

You forget one very impotant fact about Jesus, that he is the Word of God. In saying so this means that Jesus is a part of God, however the Word does not operate until actually spoken.  Look at it this way. You are not separate from your word and your word is you, if your word is you how can you be unequal to yourself?

However, your word doesn't actually operate until you decide to open your mouth and speak it.

The difference between your word and God's Word is that God's Word took human flesh and yours is incapable of taking human flesh.

The Holy Spirit is exactly what it is, a Spirit and is not bound to time and space as we are. You are looking at a person as just a flesh, when in fact the person is flesh and spirit (humans). But if the flesh dies the person is still there because the spirit is still there, so basically the flesh is very reliant on the spirit

The Spirit is sent by the Father.

To better understand the Trinity I will use a human to explain it to you.

A human is a body, mind, spirit, notice the three, however still one.

The body would be Jesus, it goes to the command of the mind, whatever the mind tells it to do it would do, the body does not know what the mind wants it to do until the mind actually tells it to do it. so until you have it in mind that you want to move your leg, your leg won't move.

The mind would be the Father, it is where everything comes from, the thought process and all commands.

The Spirit is the Holy Spirit.

This better explains how it is we are created in the image of God. Mind, Body, and Spirit.

the only thing is that Trinity is eternal.

You can also look at a shamrock, the leaf that has three heads. It is one leaf, but it still has three leafs to it. http://www.cusd.chico.k12.ca.us/dna/chapman/teachers/GregCarlton/album/shamrock.jpg if you click on the link you would be able to see a picture of the shamrock, I tried to copy and paste it here, but couldn't.

God cannot die, however don't forget that Jesus was also a human being. The body can die, but just because the body dies does not mean that that is the end to that person (remember a person is not just made up of a body). Jesus is a person and not just a body. SO because Jesus is a person and this person is God, God never died. Because this person is God and can give life, he gave life to his body, and resurrected. this is the promise to those who follow christ and are faithful.

The word trinity is the definition of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Trinity appears in the Bible, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit appears in the Bible. We just have a name for all three. So instead of saying Father, Son, Holy Spirit, it is understood as Trinity. Look at it this way, Trinity is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for short.

Now I know you are looking for a contradiction in Christianity. It pains you that the truth won't die, I understand that, but you will do well to actually try to understand it and save yourself.

So sorry you will never find a contradiction in Christianity. Instead of looking for a contradiction in Christianity, why don't you go and make sure your religion is flawless. The best way to tell those who are insecure is to look at how they treat others. You are insecure in your belief, therefore to make yourself look better you try to make others look worse.

Now everytime I have encountered someone who tries to make themselves look good by making Christianity look bad they are muslims. So if you feel that Islam has all the answers then please be secure in yourself and stop trying to find your confidence in Christianity.

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You're assuming Jesus was created.

As a part of God one could argue that Jesus was there in the beginning and has always been there.

Sure, one could argue that the physical Jesus was only created 2000 odd years ago, but the spiritual Jesus is not constrained to such a time limit.

I'm not a Bible literalist nor a fundamentalist by the way. I'm merely giving you the line as it can be looked at.

As for the quotes you give? They're arguable. With the "Let this cup pass over me" statement, it could be looked at as talking to one's self. And who doesn't do that in times of strife? It's also possible that there was a degree of separation between the physical Jesus and the spiritual Jesus/Godhead. As I've said, these are just ways it can be looked at independently.

Regarding the statement that only God knows the end. Again we've got something that can be speculated on. He could have been saying "Yeah. God (and therefore I) know the end". Or again there could have been that degree of physical/spiritual separation.

My own personal take on it is that the latter is merely a throwaway statement made just to stress the power of God.

Not necessarily. Take a look at the human brain. You have a right hemisphere and a left hemisphere. Both are in control of different things and the right isn't always aware of what the left's up to. Both make up the brain as a whole though and work together.

Or take a look at the sea and the sand. Apart, they are an expanse of water and a desert. Put them together though and you have a beach. It's not a case of equality. It's a case of complimenting and creating a whole.

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@bastage

God was not created. Jesus was created by God. That makes God greater than Jesus. My father gave me life, that automatically makes him greater than me. He has more knowledge, and i report to him. God does not report to Jesus.

If Jesus and God were the same, why did Jesus pray to God in heaven to "let this cup pass over me" shortly before he was arrested. How come Jesus did not know when the end will come except the Father in heaven. If they are the same then they should have equal knowledge?

Bastage, pls Shoot!

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The easiest way to look at the Trinity is to look at H2O.

It can be a liquid when it is water.

It can be a solid when it is ice.

It can be a vapour when it is steam.

All are the same thing though.

None is greater than the other although, all can move to each other's form. Water can become Ice, Ice can become Steam. They're all co-equal.

As for what the Trinity is? Think of it this way:

Without the Father, there would be no Son. Without the Son, there would be no Spirit. Without the Spirit, there would be no Father. There couldn't be as they're all the same thing.

The Father created the Son who shares the Spirit of the Father. They're interlinked and inseperable.

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