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Isn't A God Who Only Created More Logical Than A God Who Also Cares?

The origin hasn't found it's cause yet. Evolution and Creation are both theories, not fully valid nor verified,  we have decided to focus on. But let's move into the Christian optic and assume that God is real and that everything originated from him.

Now I ask: do you think that God is really looking after you or his only interest was to create? Perharps, since the universe is in continuous expansion, so we could deduce that the Creator is busy with another planet.

Then considering the width and the infinite dimension of this universe, why do you think God is looking at you, who is nothing but an invisible point in the whole system? Has your anthropocentrism blinded you so much that you fail to see the evidence or you really believe that the planet earth is still at the center of God's attention.

Then if you insist than God can't have abbandoned man, then asnwer this final question: Is your God that good?

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@baw

First to answer why there is only one God - Well, our God is a big God and fills every place at the same time hence there's no room for another.

don't you think that your question "so who created the creator of earth?" is illogical.

Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world,  from everlasting to everlasting you are God - Psalm 90:2 - (seems to point to Gods origin as being unidentifiable, no beginning)

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth  - Genesis 1:1 -  (Right away this should tell you that God was acting before time and he is making reference to the creation of time)

But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2Peter 3:8 (shows God as being outside of time)

God created the universe (everything which has a beginning has a cause)

God has no beginning (so doesn't need a cause)

We all know that things do not come from nothing, so if God is a "something" then He must have a cause as well, right? and since God doesn't fall into the created or existence category then He is uncaused and uncreated - therefore God exist.

Below I quote that man who never combed his hair  - Albert Einstein on time

Space

the expanse in which the Solar System, stars, and galaxies exist.

Space-Time

part of Einstein's Theory of General Relativity, that space and time are linked.

now God is a spirit being outside of space and time and the very first verse of the Bible describes God creating both time and space. a creation suggests time. a creation has a beginning and usually an end. since God created time itself, it would seem that God was not created but has always existed. . . . right.

As of today, I am not going to have my laptop (shutting down)  - so unable to answer until next week

Peace

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i don't understand this kind of reasoning, every building has a blueprint(well for oyinbo land) and we are able to witness the construction of building. the creation theory of genesis has loopholes nor is it verifiable. no one has ever claimed human beings came from the big bang. the big bang deals with the creation of the planet and not man. something can come out of nothing if you consider the existence of virtual particles.

so who created the creator of earth or has God always existed and how do we there is only one God or creator just like a group of architects and engineers can design a building?

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@poster

Evolution does not even attempt to explain the origin of life, while creation does. i just don't understand how people walking around here believe we came from a big bang theory. tell me, when you see a beautiful building or something, do you stand around amazed thinking, "Wow!!!! this building really evolved into something beautiful" or do you ask "Who designed this place?"

Peace

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The God that is Love, He cares!

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Then let them call me a heretic.

But let them also explain how the nomadic, tribal god of the OT, who doesn't even recognise anyone but the Tribes of Israel, can be the same Universal god of the NT. Let them also explain the vast discrepancies between the characters of those gods. Let them also explain away the logical, historical progressions of scripture. Let them explain away everything that science and knowledge has provided to mankind in the last few millenia regarding how, where, when and why the Bible was written and compiled.

But I assure you that I am not the only "Christian" who holds this view. The opposing evangelicals, literalists and fundamentalists tend to be the more vocal and therefore drown out those who use logic to create a differing picture from theirs.

As I've already stated, some scholars don't even believe that there is only one god in the Old Testament!! It starts out with the Creator God taken from Babylonian myth, next there's the personal god who interacts personally with his subjects and then onto a Cannanite tribal storm god. Take a good look at the 3 characters given there and it's very hard to see how they are the same god, let alone comparable with the New Testament god in any way.

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there are a lot of christains that will not agree with your assertion that the old testament god is different from the new testament god. . . infact you are the only christain that i know that has ever made this assertion. . . . many christains will call you a heretic for this assertion. . . . .

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History doesn't point to that. It points to "pagan" religions converting to Christianity and concentrating on the god of the NT. As I've already stated elsewhere, the OT was used more as a stepping stone. The NT contained the trappings of those pagan religions to make it comfortable. The OT merely contained the justification by way of history and tradition for that cross-over.

A simple question: If the god is the same, why even bother with Christianity? Why not remain Jewish?

Of course that's possible. Anything is possible. But you've got to take logic into account and balance the probabilities.

You normally do care if you make something. On balance therefore it would be logical that a god cares.

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@MAzaje

They're all Christians. It's just that some of them believe that they're the only "true" Christians and spend a long time trying to shove that belief down other people's throats.

In some respects that's no different to the different sects within Islam -ie: Sunnis, Shias and Suffis, etc.

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@Pilgrim.

I was Born a MuCath. Muslim Catholic

Got Muslim Christening n all,

Went to a muslim school, learning arabic, koran stuff.

Before my mum decided to disallow my fathers family's influence

from taking us all under.

Most of my Dads family are still muslims tho.

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@Bastage,

No, my dear Bastage, No. It is so easy to confuse the OT for the OC (old covenant). Because so many people often make these mistakes (I once did before my conversion), that is why they constantly wonder about the position Christians take in regards to these matters. Let me remind you with a simple outline:

Old Testament (OT) -- (Genesis to Malachi inclusive)

Old Covenant (OC) -- Judaism.

Judaism was not given as a continuum into Christianity; whereas the OT (Old Testament) is still believed in by Christians especially in doctrinal matters of faith and prophecies. Even the Jews do not discard these two matters, and the paradigm is only a matter of interpretations of the texts (OT) and not of the religion (Judaism).

Having a clear balance of these matters would give you the simple reason why one could not assume that the OT is recognized as being "out of date" - nothing could be farther from the truth.

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Whatever happened in The Old Testament has clear reasons.

@TOpic,

im sorry to say, but its rather nonsensical

to create something you like and think is good

then discard it or have no attachment to it.

HE HAS to also CARE.

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I'd say it's the opposite if you're using pure logic.

If you create something, you normally have a reason for creating it. And if you create something, you don't normally just do so to throw it away.

So therefore it's more logical that a creator god cares simply because there would have been no point in him creating anything otherwise.

@mazaje. Christians tend to give Islam a hard time because they are disconnected from the Old Testament god by the New Testament god. The vast majority of Christians seem to recognise the atrocities perpetrated by the OT god but are able to expel those parts of him from their religion. The OT is recognised as being out of date by the vast majority of Christians and is considered more in the realms of Islam and Judaism. You would certainly have a hard time finding a main-stream Christian who can condone the majority of the OT god's actions.

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In an exploit of inconceivable irrationality, God sends forth two bears to kill forty-two children for making fun of Elisha’s bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24). Why would the omnibenevolent God feel the necessity to have two bears viciously maul little children for acting like…children?

After delivering the Amorites into the hands of Joshua, he sends down a hailstorm in order to kill a large portion of the people who flee from battle (Joshua 10:8-11). God assists in the war between Barak and Sisera by surrounding Sisera’s army and forcing them to dismount from their chariots. Because of his intervention, Sisera’s entire army faces imminent death at the hands of Barak (Judges 4:14-15). God causes the Midianites to kill one another (Judges 7:22-23). He confuses the Philistines and causes them to kill one another (1 Samuel 14:20-23). He inflicts a number of people with blindness because Elisha asks him to do so (2 Kings 6:18). He causes a seven-year famine without specifying a reason (2 Kings 8:1). God kills Jeroboam because he’s the leader of the enemies (2 Chronicles 13:20). He kills Nabal without specifying a reason, but it’s probably because David desires his wife and other belongings (1 Samuel 25:38). God sends an angel to kill 185,000 men in an Assyrian camp because they’re enemies of his people (2 Kings 19:31-35). He plagues Azariah, a man labeled as a good King, with leprosy for the remainder of his life because he allows people to burn incense in a location displeasing to God (2 Kings 15:1-5). This is another great example of an overbearing punishment for breaking an asinine law.

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i will like to know why christains mock prophet mohammed for being a craddle-robber when the biblical god did worse things than him in the bible . . . . here are so example of the biblical god ' wickedness

God’s episodes of murdering innocent individuals for the faults of their leaders, fathers, or other ancestors are not uncommon in the Old Testament. Jephthah asks for God’s assistance in killing the children of Ammon and promises him the first person out of his house upon his return as a burnt sacrifice if he will agree to aid with the massacre. God concurs and lethally delivers the children of Ammon into Jephthah’s hands. When Jephthah returns, his daughter, an only child, makes her way outside to welcome him home. Two months later, Jephthah regretfully fulfills his promise by burning his daughter as a sacrifice to God (Judges 11:29-39). Why would God allow a man to offer an innocent person as a reward unless God also intended for certain people to be mere possessions?

While David is King, he decides to conduct a census: a horrendous sin in God’s eyes. As punishment for his poor decision, he is to select among seven years of famine, three months of fleeing from his enemies, and three days of pestilence. Unable to choose from the offered catastrophes, God picks the three days of pestilence that result in the deaths of 70,000 men. Women and children weren’t mentioned, not that the Bible considered them to have any real value in the first place. Again, God murders enough people to fill a sizable city for the “sin” of one man. David subsequently cries out to God and asks him why he wants to murder innocent people who had nothing to do with the decision to execute a census. Of course God doesn’t provide an impossible answer for this sensible question, but his reasons scarcely seem morally or ethically justifiable (2 Samuel 24:10-17).

David’s new son, Solomon, turns away from the Hebrew god and decides to worship other deities. Solomon’s decision infuriates God, but he isn’t punished because God recently came to like David. Instead, he punishes Solomon’s son by taking away part of his land when he comes to power (1 Kings 11:9-13). Once again, we see the impossibility of being free from God’s anger even when living in total obedience to him. In essence, Solomon’s son was divinely punished before he was ever born.

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I thot u mentioned Sudan, Rwanda as examples of God's wickedness. Read ur last post.

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No worries david, me I have to hit the sack its past midnight.

Cheers.

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DavidDylan can you please paste the link here where i supposedly made such a statement because i think your mistaken me for somebody else

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How is He responsible? Is the president of a country directly responsible for armed robbery?

since when did God become "responsible" for the actions of men with a choice?

Chris, i gotta run. I'll address your other concerns later. Adios bro . . . at least you are civil and level headed.

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Great now your talking, but sorry to sound like mazaje here is that God not responsible for those deaths in the old testament, it is the same way someone can say he did that and that means he does not care.

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The above will only be "logical" if the writer has invented her own god whom she is refering to. the God of the bible that i know cares for His own creation so much He didnt think twice about laying His own life down for His friends.

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@david

Easy for the beef on atheists, I am only trying to examine a statement here, I have been a victim of religious beliefs and I lost people dear to me but I try not to be venomous to christians on this forum, lets just keep a clear head please.

@stillwater et david

What I was trying to point out is this, from the statement one can deduce the following

1. There is a God

2. That God created the universe

3. That maybe he does not care about his creation.

Is the above possible "logically" I think it is, clearer now?

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As I said earlier, I do not see why there should be a differentiation.

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the term "logic" is always bandied around by too many athiests as if everyone else lacks the capacity to be logical. the problem is most i have encountered are not very bright themselves and have trouble logically connecting issues, including many on these religion threads.

Back to your "scenario", the part in bold makes no sense. Essentially the writer is trying to say "well cant we all just believe that God created the earth (since i have failed to disprove this) and not bother about Him being involved with man".

that isnt logic at all. that is merely seeking an excuse to continue living in sin.

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@david and stillwater

I stressed the part in bold because I want you to see that it may not be the same thing as obtainable from the bible, LOGIC is the main thing connecting the both premises.

To answer your question david, a father can not care about his child, that does not stop him from being the father of the child.

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that "question" is bogus at best. Lets look at a scenario, what is the difference between a man who fathered you and a father who cares?

The essence of that "question" is the same old trick in another form - a subtle attempt to say the same thing atheists have been crying about for so long . . . well we are not sure if a God exists or not but lets just say He doesnt care for anyone and we can all live without Him.

What really is new?

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@all

Isn't A God Who Only Created [b]More Logica[/b]l Than A God Who Cares

Read the above at least twice and pause at the bold part, then try to answer with a clear mind,

Cheers

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JJYOU, its all God's fault.

He's the one who has prevented NEPA from providing us with 24 hrs uninterrupted power supply. It doesnt matter that ordinary South Africa and Ghana can achieve that already . . . perhaps God has pitched His hammock there.

Oh and manmustwack says God must take the blame for muslim leaders who wish to kill the blacks in Darfur . . . never mind that the Canadians have been living in perfect peace for donkey yrs . . . or perhaps God has his special garrage there.

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funny how people ask questions above their pay grade as the lovely obama would say.

is  God responsible for the tribalists and zenophobic murderers in the middle east, africa and europe?

is  God migrating  the hookers and prostitutes from africa to europe today?

is God responsible for all of human decisions?

is God behind the myopic misguided people trying to prove there is no God in this forum?

is God responsible for all the immoral earnings people are living off today?

is he responsible for the drugs and illicit sex people indulge in all over the world?

some of youwish there was no God. have you imagine how you are able to breathe and how easily the gift can be taken away from.

when i get straight answers to these we begin to talk.

you are not as immortal as some of you think. you are just a breath away from your last breath but for the mercies of the God you so much hate with your small minds.

why do you strive with your maker o mortal man? dont you see what His hands and will created and be in awe?

see how innocent and better people than you and i are going to face eternity in a twinkle of an eye yet people who have no clue sit on NL asking questions

Tributes paid to family of six killed in motorway crash

Police given 36-hour extension to continue questioning driver held on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving

Members of the Statham family who died in the M6 crash

Elouise, Michelle, Mason and Jay (front) Statham, who all died in a crash on the M6. Photograph: Cheshire Police/PA

Neighbours and colleagues today paid tribute to a "model family" of six who died when their car burst into flames after a series of collisions in congested motorway traffic.

The tributes came as Cheshire police were given a 36-hour extension to continue questioning a driver held on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving.

Officers can keep Paulo Jorge Silva, 46, who was driving for a Spanish firm, in custody until 11.45pm tomorrow.

A police spokesman said the process was going slowly because an interpreter was needed in interviews.

The Statham family – including three children and a baby – died in the crash between junctions 16 and 17 of the M6 at Sandbach, Cheshire, as they were returning to their home in Llandudno, north Wales.

Chef David Statham, 38, his wife, Michelle, 33, a financial adviser, and their children Reece, 13, Jay, nine, Mason, 20 months, and Elouise, 10 weeks, had been visiting family in Birmingham when they were caught in a collision involving three lorries and two cars.

One of the Statham's neighbours, Vince Collina, 49, said he had felt a horrible sense of worry yesterday when he discovered the six dead came from Llandudno.

"My heart just sank when I found out and my mouth went dry. Then the confirmation came and it has just knocked us for six.

"They were a wonderful, model family, just six beautiful people. The kids were so polite and the parents hard-working, they were really neighbourly.

"They were always pleasant and chatty and really contributed to a sense of public spirit on the street. Everybody is really shocked and traumatised."

Statham had worked as a chef at St David's College, a private boarding and day school for 11- to 18-year-olds, for two years.

The school's bursar, Judith Leslie, said: "David was a well-liked member of staff, always had a friendly smile and would lend a helping hand - nothing was ever too much trouble.

"He will be very sadly missed. He made a huge impression because he was so amiable and cheerful."

Mrs Statham worked as a financial adviser at Beresford Adams, where her boss, Mark Slater, described her as a very warm woman with a strong personality.

"We are all devastated. Michelle was a very popular and well-respected member of staff, not just with her colleagues but across the branches. She was not just a colleague, she was a friend to many."

At Reece's school, John Bright Secondary, teachers and pupils said prayers for the family.

The headteacher, Irene Perry, said Reece was a "model pupil" who was courteous, cheerful and always positive. He was an avid Aston Villa fan who was proud of his Brummie accent, she said.

Statham grew up in Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands, where his mother, Angela, still lives. Neighbours there said the family moved away for "a nicer quality of life" in Wales. Next-door neighbour Judy Alexander said the family had been visiting Michelle Stratham's parents and did not believe that Angela Stratham, who was recently widowed, had ever seen her granddaughter.

David and Michelle Statham had desperately wanted a little girl and finally got their wish when Elouise was born 10 weeks ago, said Alexander.

Angela Stratham had been "shocked to the core" when she was told the news.

The mayor of Llandudno, Bill Evans, said plans would be made for an official remembrance service in the town if the Stathams' relatives wanted it.

Police said the scene on the M6 was "like a war zone", and that emergency crews who had attended would need counselling.

Inspector Brian Rogers, of Cheshire police, said: "There was the utter devastation of this vehicle." The Stratham's car was so badly damaged by the collision and fire that it had to be identified by its chassis number.

The collision happened less than two hours after the former Wigan Warriors rugby league star David Myers, 37, died when his van hit a bridge support on the same stretch of motorway.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/22/transport

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He is, but you can ignore Him if you want . . .

Yup. He may not be good to you, that's ok. Every man to himself.

yeah.

Mazaje has no point, we've been thru his endless "list" before when i thot he was someone interested in learning. He just keeps repeating the same thing over and over again no matter how many times you try to painstakingly go thru each of his claims.

1. God did not "allow" the murder of Job's family.

2. Disobedience has repercussions, we are only blessed because we live in the period of grace. Moses and the Jews didnt have such a chance then.

3. That would be the amalekites? I've pointed this out 3000 times to block heads here, the Amalekites were punished for attacking the defenceless, the young, the old and the weak among the jews when they were crossing the wilderness. I'm disappointed with people who merely parrot things they dont know.

4. Right from the time the Ark was made, there was a strict law that no non-levite (the priesthood) shld touch the ark. Every jew is aware of this.

5. The reasons are CLEARLY spelled out in the book of Genesis. Infact Noah was sent as a warner for years before the flood. More of the usual dishonesty here.

6. Sorry bro . . . i'm supposing you advocate the elimination of the justice system in your country of residence since that is just too wicked of a government punishing people for not "seeing things" the way of your constitution?

7. Go back and read the story of Abraham before making unfounded allegations.

It might interest you to note that Sudan is a muslim nation. Go ask your muslim brothers why their god is wicked too.

God wont fall down from heaven and tell you to stop killing urselves. Have you wondered why Africa is a hotbed of violence, famine and war and the Europeans and Americans are enjoying life? would you claim that God must only care for white people?

Simple, the whites got their hands on deck and worked to build a society, we are too busy fighting and then blaming God for our problems.

You dont need proof. you dont need to believe in God.

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Hey david, why the new I.d?? Did you get banned or what??

Let me just say this, Mazaje has a point,

God allowed for the murder of Jobs family just to test his loyalty

God did not allow Moses into the promised land just because he struck a rock.

God tells the children of Isreal to wipe out an entire civilisation just so they can take their land.

Killed a man who tried to stop the ark from falling.

Wiped out the entire earth with water for reasons yet unkown to me.

Took his time to build a torture chamber (Hell) for the souls of anybody who fails to see things his way.

Pulls a nasty Joke on Abraham telling him to dice his only legitimate son.

The list is endless.

This dosent portray a God that cares. Or should I bring you to real time.

Sudan

Rwanda

Sierra leone

e.t.c.

Whats the proof that God cares??

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That is the point of this thread oh people , is your God good, simple and straight forward lets stick to issues here.

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huh is michelin an atheist?

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on and on and on and on and on . . . every single thread you come across that has the word "God" . . . over and over and over again like a broken record you repeat the same old unsubstantiated drivel.

You claim christians spill "talking points", the problem is much of your own garboil is oft-repeated, discredited talking points gleaned from other less than honest athiests like yourself. There is nothing intellectually stimulating in your "questions", they are merely the same angry, virulent and unbalanced comments all the time.

Its no surprise most people with better things to do long stopped responding to you. Much better to have you whine on every thread, makes comic relief.

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vitriol you call it. . . did the biblical god kill jobs family because he wanted to test him or not? why do christains spew all this nonsense talking points when people remaind them about the nasty and evil things their god did to humanity in the bible? did the biblical god kill people for no reason in the bible? yes, did i make the stories up? no, so what do you mean by vitriol? if calling out the biblical god for all the nonsensical killings and and evil he did in the bible is vitriol then so be it. . . .the usual talking points are its either you are troubled , not happy or insane. . . the only person that is insane is you who believes that a god that kills babies because their parents worship other gods will save you from your miserable life when you die. . . . . .

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young man, save urself from an aneurysm. The amount of vitriol you spew each time you come across a christian thread leaves me fearing for ur sanity.

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the question is which of the gods? non of them really cares about man if they do nigeria will be a better place than it is right now because no where in the world do people call on jehova and Allah daily for help like nigeria and they still get no answer. . . .serpent and eve? what the heck are you talking about? job? god allowed the devil to kill his family and take everything he had just because he wanted to test him according to the bible. . .why does the biblical god love killing people. . .he killed jobs family just because he wanted to test him. . will you serve a mster that kills all you family just because he wanted to test your loyalty?. . . .

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comments like this chill me to the bones. It seems the main goal of the atheist is to prove one thing - that God does not care about man.

It was the same strategy the Serpent used against Eve, the very same strategy against Job.

Quite sad really.

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