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Jesus -carpenter, Peter -fisherman, Paul -tentmaker! Your Pastor -> Pastor?

How come the Lord Jesus, Peter (the Rock) and Paul had jobs yet pastors today and their acolytes say they are too busy doing God's work to have time for "honest" work? Are they better than the Lord Jesus or more anointed than Peter and Paul?

Some will say there is no record of Jesus working during his 3 year ministry or Peter working after Jesus called Him. However, Paul seems  today the father of modern Christianity yet boasted that he lived off his labor and did not depend on anyone. Why then cannot our pastors today find honest labor and use their substance from such duty for God's work like Paul did?

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from 1Cotinthians 9,the reason why paul did not demand his rights wäs because of the fear of what is happening today.Most of the people I have conversed with concerning the reason why they do not go to churches gave me more or less respponse similar to that ''there are no true pastors nowadays,they are all after money,they preach it that Jesus''.i wonder why pastors dont just do as Paul did.he did not want people to think that the gospel is all about pastors consuming people`s monies which is what people believe today.Paul was more happier with people believing the gospel to a point that he would rather die than for people to not believe it because of him spending their money.from 1Cotinthians 9,the reason why paul did not demand his rights wäs because of the fear of what is happening today.Most of the people I have conversed with concerning the reason why they do not go to churches gave me more or less respponse similar to that ''there are no true pastors nowadays,they are all after money,they preach it that Jesus''.i wonder why pastors dont just do as Paul did.he did not want people to think that the gospel is all about pastors consuming people`s monies which is what people believe today.Paul was more happier with people believing the gospel to a point that he would rather die than for people to not believe it because of him spending their money.from 1Cotinthians 9,the reason why paul did not demand his rights wäs because of the fear of what is happening today.Most of the people I have conversed with concerning the reason why they do not go to churches gave me more or less respponse similar to that ''there are no true pastors nowadays,they are all after money,they preach it that Jesus''.i wonder why pastors dont just do as Paul did.he did not want people to think that the gospel is all about pastors consuming people`s monies which is what people believe today.Paul was more happier with people believing the gospel to a point that he would rather die than for people to not believe it because of him spending their money.Read 1Corinthians9 properly with relaxation and understanding

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Is it any wonder the slowpoke is always apologising? If it isnt trumping up lying excuses to excuse accusing NL males of sexism or misleading people while being a pompous prat, its using multiple ID's and lying about it or apologising for plagiarism.

Its obvious that despicable soul has learnt nothing, apologising, apologising, apologising all the time YET return to do the same thing.

and FRANKLY I DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT ANYBODY'S APOLOGY.

I've got no problem with anyone being a serial liar, dont just be a hypocrite about it. You're a demon possessed liar yet u preach and quote scriptures on nairaland and claim to be spirit filled.

I HATE hypocrites. And its the hypocrisy of so-called christians that proved to me beyond doubt that the 'blood of Jesus' that supposedly washes away sins is as useless as my grandmothers G-string.

How does one explain an apparently 'born-again christain' like mavenbox who cannot free herself from the bondage of lying?

I'm a very practical person and deal with what I see. Most times when I'm approached with this jesus mumbo jumbo, i tell the preachers I want to see the effects of what they're trying to preach in their lives, anything other than that they can go phock themselves. . . Do you wanna know how many have gone on to phock themselves?

Hypocrites have no credibility. Mavenbox/Inesqor/whatever has lost ALL her credibility.

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Thanks Davidylan, I really appreciate that.

Deep Sight, points taken. Lol. I was teasing you and Tudor, i called it Nairaland Ferris Wheel if you recall. My quotes above are true, anyway. Mavenbox left cos I got locked out, and I guessed if I directly admitted to you and Tudor I may not hear the end of it. So I neither accepted nor denied.

BTW Thanks bro, and I look forward to some chess-flogging from you.

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InesQor needs to stop apologizing . . . we've all forgotten the issue and moved on.

Nice to see deepsight back.

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As an aside the Maven-Female thing was not your only lie.

There have been many.

Here’s another set -

Only to admit above within this thread – that you are in fact Mavenbox.

Look, Its none of my business and its just petty – but such behaviour is quite irritating.

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Lol Inesqor. Why won't you let me live down those horrible games?

And I warn you that I am still practicing and am coming back for you! ! !

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I am yet to comprehend the fountainhead of your problems here, Deep Sight. Besides the complicated mess due to my error last year when I used a wrong gender on Nairaland and which even God has forgotten about, can you please show me how I have been lying to you?

You just love to run your mouth.

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What do you mean by this?

That repeated, consistent and determined lying is ok, but pointing them out is wrong?

What double standards, nuclear.

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@JeSoul/Nuclearboy: thanks.

@Deep Sight: Welcome back to the NL MadHouse.

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Finally out with all the lies, huh?

Congrats on coming clean. . . though you will pardon me if i am compelled to take your long-winded excuses with a pinch of salt, given your highly imaginative stories in the past.

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^wow at the recent conversation.

Nuclearboy, you are wise beyond wise and I thank you.

InesQor, you didn't have to go into all that again. I know you've already tried to explain urself several times on NL. But I do thank you for trying to defend me.

Tudor, in hindsight, I could've sent you a private message before outright deleting your post. For that I apologize. In the future I will make every attempt to do so first. And I do implore you to please, try to be cordial and respectful in your conversations with those with whom you disagree with or do not like. That is all I ask not only of you but other NLders. Thanks.

Now please, return to the topic of this thread!

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@Tudor:

Well, there you have it. I think patience at all times is truly profitable. Us yoruba say "agba tio ni suru, oun gbogbo lo ni" (elders who are patient have all they need). I remember something that i read this morning about a pastor who insisted a 16 yr old keep an unwanted pregnancy but who when later his wife was Molested and became pregnant, became an advocate for abortion. In shame, he went to a "quiet" quack who destroyed the wife's womb.

I wouldn't be suprised to hear that after that, he married another so he could have a child.

These things happen because we all are human and the greatest mistake we can make is to forget that. When the shoe falls on our own feet, we understand how it is to make these choices.

And BTW, I do agree with you that not all can think clearly or apply understanding. Still, there is the injunction to seek knowledge and wisdom at all costs - and continue to do so till fulfilled. Most throw away the chance for self development for love of lucre not realising that after getting those, what they seek for actually seeks them out.

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First off, I apologize that this is off-topic.

I am really and sincerely sorry about the whole ID stuff, it was a combo of complex faults. For the sake of noetic's posts on the locked nopuqeater/olabowale thread, I explain below.

As I alreadY explained earlier on nairaland, I am not using the 2 accounts. I forgot to log out of my email on a public terminal, and I guess someone changed my password. Password recovery didnt work, I tried.

Tried to recover it to no avail, so on my birthday, February 22nd, 2010 I came to Nairaland to change my email on my profile so that I can get notifications since I cant access the old email. Unfortunately, Nairaland sent the activation link to that same old email that i cant access, and i was locked out until I can click the inaccessible link.

Looking back, i think the best solution would have been to email a moderator or something but impatiently, just like some people do when banned, I created a new user because I wanted to make some posts. I did, and decided to forget about the locked email and mavenbox ID.

Hours later, suprisingly Google sent me an SMS so i was able to reactivate my email and thus I could activate mavenbox again later that day. But I continued posting with this account.

Unfortunately, things got further complex because my mavenbox login was saved on my phone so one day I used my phone to reply a post on Buddhism and after two posts I was alarmed to see what I had mistakenly done. Then i logged out and cleared the login details.

And truthfully, JeSoul told me OFF nairaland that I was in the wrong. She told me to come clean and fix what I was getting deeper into. I simply told her that I did not want to raise the topic, I just did not think it was a good idea because I had gotten into enough trouble in the past. Besides, I was not using the two accounts so as far as I could see, nothing was amiss. She insisted but I ignored her advice. She said "all of this" would happen but I thought it didnt matter.

To everyone to whom it matters, most especially Tudor, DeepSight, and JeSoul and Nuclearboy, and Davidylan & Noetic and finally VIARO (Your name is not in lower-caps, never let anyone tell you any less), I am sorry. I hope you guys forgive me.

Cheers.

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Yes it is and that is why He said, i have put life and death ahead of you, chose one . . . He even advice that we chose life, so that we may live

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understand in the first place what his/her choices are, is it not?

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Same God gave His own people what we call freewill

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@Tudor

Where 've you been? Welcome

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All this na wasted talk talk, no action. . . . Where is God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit to checkmate these basterds like Oyedepo and Adeboye? Does he not care about the millions led to hell and suffered by these charlatans?

Apparently Ananaias and his wife were killed by God for witholding part of their offering BUT these men steal from millions of poor people, collude with politicians to ridicule the masses, twist the word of God and tell outright lies against God and the Holy Spirit YET they're growing fatter everyday and I still see their thieving faces around.

Tell me, when will God kill Oyedepo, Adeboye and Oyakhilome so that the body of christ can be saved and millions delivered from 'hell'?

I'll tell you when. . . . NEVER! Because either God does not exist or God dont give a shhite. I'd go for the former and every wise man would too.

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P.S. Is there a thread addressing the question of whether true apostles exist today or not?

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^^^My dear brother,

I agree with what you 've written. I raised those points so that you wouldn't be taken unawares when the WoF crowd comes. I think that the time of the apostles was sort of "transitional", thus accounting for some differences from how an established church would be run. Looking at the epistles to Timothy and Titus, where Paul lays down instructions on how the church should be administered seems to suggest nothing of the sort that we see today, where one person is the capo di tutti capi aka the G.O or what have you. But rather it would seem that the church is meant to be run by a plurality of elders (an episcopate), all being held accountable for doctrine and action. I do not think the position of elder is meant to be a full time paying job. Indeed looking at the book of Acts shows the simplicity of the fellowship. "They gathered to break bread", at regular set intervals. For the rest of the week, I am believe they went about their business.

Having said this, there will still be those called to full time ministry like evangelists and missionaries but even then some can still work for a living. (I know an American Missionary, who for the nearly 20 years he and his family spent in Jos, worked for a salary, while still doing the work of a missionary)

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While you raise valid points there are some loopholes in your thesis. Granted that at one time Jesus worked as a carpenter and Peter was a fisherman, the question is did they always continue in these professions? I believe the scriptures show that was not the case. Jesus was itinerant, needing financial support from others.

I am not making the argument that justifies the rapacious plundering of the flock by ravening wolves that goes on today. But the scriptures indicate that God has graciously provided that provision will be available to those involved in propagating the gospel

God's work done in God's way never lacks God's resources.

But the abuses we see today is because of the fact that "many are called, few are chosen". And there be those who have fallen into the error of Balaam and think that the gospel is a means of acquiring wealth.

Paul in laying down the principles for church administration is quite clear on the requisite qualifications.

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Acts 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Its interesting to see how the apostles dealt with offerings in the early church. I'm sure Peter, James and co could simply have appropriated all the land to erect impressive churches in Jerusalem, i'm sure they could have utilised some of this money to buy faster chariots to "spread the gospel" with convenience . . . but they CHOSE to use the money to the benefit of everyone in need. Verse 34 is quite poignant . . . there was NOT ONE among them that lacked . . . can we say the same of todays "church"? Why is it that so many lack when there are some who have plenty and over in abundance? why should a pastor own a jet when there are some in the household of faith with no food to eat?

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Just like when you say a father, it does not mean a man that has a dick and can make babies, but one that will be there for the kids and look after them well

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Nuclearboy

When I'm referring to pastors, I'm not referring everyone that carries a Bible and says God told him to go and start a church because he can preach. I believe the general idea/context is that it is a person who preaches in a particular building/location(possibly headquarters) every week to a particular set of people called members. Irrespective of their being real/false, Pastors Oyedepo, Kumuyi, Okonkwo, Okotie, Adeboye, Oyakhilome, Joshua and many more fall in this class as 'pastors'. I don't think Paul the apostle ministered this way, at least not as permanently as these examples.

Now, that some has a 'vocation' does not mandate it to be full time. The Bible doesn't say Jesus, or Paul, or Peter had full time secular jobs. There are pastors who have secular jobs, and some who don't, even in the same denomination. There are pastors employed full time in their churches, paid salary. Of course, one should be aware of wolves and lazy people, but the point is that there are cogent reasons why some pastors do not take up secular jobs. One can have a secular job in some local government and be more indolent and dependent than others.

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1 Corinthians 9

The Rights of an Apostle

1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink? 5Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas[a]? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?

7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?

  But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

15 But I have not used any of these rights.

  InesQor very nice post. But I will like you and Nuclearboy to do some justice to the above scripture. I believe there should be balance in all this. It may not be a "job" in the secular sense of the word, but the above scripture is clear God has intended some material blessing to go the way of those who tend the sheep. What say ye?

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@ Fhemmy:ha ha,funny.

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Let's not assume to conclude. I don't think any of the above persons mentioned by the O.P had a full time secular job, as pastors are expected to have. Also, I don't think Paul the apostle really ministered as a 'pastor'. While laziness/indolence should not be encouraged, one also needs to be practically effective for the Work of the gospel to move forward. Talk is cheap anyway

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@Fhemmy:

Paul worked all through his life. Stop reading rhapsody and pick up your Bible. All these daily "milk" booklets are turning you people to idolatry. The Word of God is not for any private interpretation and when your "daddies" and "mummies" design a book, they are of neccessity "interpreting God's Word" as they deem fit.

@InesQor:

Pastor? Pastor ke? Nobody calls themselves Pastor nowadays. Thats an insult and is reserved for "smallies" who do not have Jeeps and congregations greater than 5, 000 strong. Titles of note today are "Apostle Syphilis Agbado", "Prophet Snake in the Monkey shadow", "Bishop Tithes Are Mine" etc.

We watch "the secret Millionaire" and see supposed Atheist millionaires go out and give literally tens of millions to people they do not know just to make a difference in their lives. That IMO, is ministering to people with money. You can do same with words of comfort, providing jobs, educating the poor etc. You show love when you give of yourself knowing they can NEVER repay (if they even ever meet you again).

No-one is saying pastors here do not support charity but they do so with other people's money and resources. So what are they giving of themselves seeing as they receive re-compense for all they do. Infact, its like they do 5 and get 5000 in return from poor people. When the congregation gave of their property (ananias and sapphira), the Bible does not tell us Peter bought lovely White horses and shining armor for himself and the other apostles, does it? Why not? Because they had a heart for God.

I wish one of the "full time pastors" would come out here and explain their own point of view to us.

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@InesQOr:God bless u brother.

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Eph 4:11 And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.

Eph 4:12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church)

I believe it is very wrong to think of the work of pastors (or teachers, apostles, prophets or evangelists) as a job in itself. It is a means to an end, and not an end in itself.

Eph 4:11 calls them GIFTS i.e. something acquired to cover a deficiency (or foster an advantage) without requiring reparation/compensation. Being a pastor is an advantage for the sake of the gospel, and not a career. It is not an advantage to cheat people of their money, however!

The Greek word used for GIFTS in Eph 4:8-12 is doma (δόμα), the same word that Jesus used in Luke 11:13

Luk 11:13 If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask and continue to ask Him!

Once again, GIFTS foster an advantage. They are not the advantage in themselves.

When someone is given a gift, the giver expects that the receiver will appreciate the gift (there is no use giving gold necklaces to pigs, they won't tell the difference if it was made of tin). And that's why gifts are given for an advantage. It is a pity if the advantage is ignored!

The gifts are meant to be employed, the gifts are not the receiver's employer; the receiver is the employer of the gift. The pastor, for instance, is meant to employ his pastoral gift in the shepherding of his flock wherever he is.

Pro 18:16 A man's gift makes room for him and brings him before great men. [Gen. 32:20; I Sam. 25:27; Prov. 17:8; 21:14.]

1Pe 4:10 As each of you has received a gift (a particular spiritual talent, a gracious divine endowment), employ it for one another as [befits] good trustees of God's many-sided grace [faithful stewards of the extremely diverse powers and gifts granted to Christians by unmerited favor].

1Pe 4:11 Whoever speaks, [let him do it as one who utters] oracles of God; whoever renders service, [let him do it] as with the strength which God furnishes abundantly, so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ (the Messiah). To Him be the glory and dominion forever and ever (through endless ages). Amen (so be it).

In summary, a pastor is not that guy who has made a weekly job of standing before a congregation and telling them what to do with their lives, although that may be a part of his job description. If a banker has the gift of a pastor, then the people he comes into contact with on a daily basis should see him as someone of integrity, a person that they can relate with on matters to do with God, and with seeking guidance, wisdom and truth; WHETHER they are Christians or not. His opinions are very valuable to people wherever he is.

Just because someone wields the gift of a pastor does not mean they should start a church!!!! In the very fact, if you must retire from your day-job and you are absolutely convinced by God's call to do so, listen carefully and he will tell you what to do. He may not always tell you to start a church, he may ask you to team up with an apostle and begin a free open library, an orphanage, a public shelter, a feeding-house, start a magazine, a TV station, whatever! THAT work is the work you are now doing for the ministry, and your pastoral gifts which you had all along will make the work move more smoothly for you.

And then of course, the moniker "pastor" e.g. Pastor H.I.V. Joseph is absolutely unnecessary. As I said initially, it's not an occupation.

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I apologize in advance for the next two posts, they may be a bit long.

I'll highlight my points before I proceed to explain my understanding, in the next post.

1. Pastoring is a gift and not an occupation.

2. It is an extra responsibility in addition to your job, and NOT a job.

3. Pastors are not meant to be confined to a congregation that meets once, twice, thrice or more times a week.

4. A pastor is a shepherd of God's flock, and God's flock includes every and anyone you meet, that has a heart that is hungry for God.

4. A pastor does not have a congregation, but GOD has congregations that he assigns to pastors to take care of (John 21:15-17)

5. The congregations may not necessarily be Christians, in fact, but their hearts are seeking the truth (Matt 8:12-13, Luke 15:4, Luke 15:7)

6. It is the duty of the Pastor to guide/shepherd the congregation to the God they seek, as much as it's the duty of a herder of sheep to guide the sheep to lush green landscapes where their hearts would be content.

7. The pastoral gift, like every other gift, is designed to give an advantage, to open doors into the pastor's future. e.g. when David was a pastor of sheep, he had to defend the sheep against wild animals. This gave him a bold advantage against Goliath.

8. The pastor's congregation is NOT meant to be so large that the pastor does not know the sheep on an individual basis. It's better to have a congregation of 5 people whose hearts are well-knitted together, than to have 5 million if you don't know all of them by name. I will not name any churches here, but it's when the church is getting too large as a unit that the church projects will spiral into billions of cash, and the congregation will need to pay for it. They are not to be taken for granted!

Pro 27:23  Know your sheep by name; carefully attend to your flocks;

Pro 27:24  (Don't take them for granted; possessions don't last forever, you know.)

Pro 27:23  Be diligent to know the state of your flocks, and look well to your herds;

Pro 27:24  For riches are not forever; does a crown endure to all generations?

And that's why Jesus' heart was moved at the multitudes in Matthew 9:36, they were so many and he could not tend to them like a shepherd tends to sheep's peculiar needs, but he did what he could. That's not often the case today, as churches compete to get larger in size and nobody cares about the growing number of voiceless people in the congregation.

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All those people that you mentioned when they started the full time ministry, they took the work of the Lord as a full time.

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@David:

[1] Any succint Biblical support for this point of view? BTW, you're preaching to the choir but it'd be nice if viewers have biblical references to show the truth.

[2] Any suggestions on how to educate Christians on the truth?

InesQor:

where are you?

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The reason is Christ, Peter and Paul did not abuse "tithes and offerings" to enrich themselves. It was meant for the poor and those in need.

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