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Judas Iscariot - Hero Or Villian?

Hello friends its been a long time I posted here mostly because the topics became a lot more insignificant and not really interesting.

So in the spirit of striking up an interesting topic I thought I should ask how do christians view Judas Iscariot, I know this always bothered me a bit when I was a christian because I always thought the role he had to play was very important to the salvation of christians.

I remember somewhere Jesus says it would have been better that he was not born, so guys really looking at it he saved the asses of christians today, so how do you see him, Hero or Villan?

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The significance of Judas can be deduced from what Jesuse said about the guy himself. In John 17:12 Christ said "while I was with them (the deciples) in the world I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled"

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To add to natachi; we are giving freewill and assuming everyone including Judas did not betray jesus, God almighty would have figured alternative way for give mankind salvation. God never tries us with something evil so you can't say that he made Judas betray jesus. This Judas guys was a thief right from time and he had the guts to ask jesus "was it I?" when jesus said that one of them will betray him. Judas is not a role model and can never be. Any of you who claim so should pray that your own child be like Judas.

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lets not get all this wrong.of course the son of God was destined to die , but it was quoted in one part of the scripture that woebetide he thru whom that will come to pass. Of course God has given each and every1 of a a very great gift and that is the gift of FREEWILL, judas CHOOSE to die and die he did.every1 of us likewie has that choice to make now and if we had been priveldeged to be born during the time of JESUS CHIRST may have unfortunately been the Judas.thanks i wasnt born then!

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I really dont like talking about issues like this. but if you asked me for my honest opinion i woiuld simlpy say judas was fuffilling God's plan for humanity, somebody had to betray jesus, it was just unfortunate that he had to be the one, what if it was peter, james or john, the same thing would have happened, jesus would still have to be crucified.

so i think judas should be regarded as a man who fufilled God's purpose for his life.

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Judas was merely one factor in a series of events that culminated in the death of Christ.There are Sanhedrin and Pharisees and Pilates and Roman soldiers and the Jewish crowd baying for his blood.The religious council that said his tomb must be super-sealed so his disciples woudn't go and steal the body, and then start shouting that he'd risen. In fact, the council went and sealed the tomb themselves, as it was too important a task to trust to anyone else.(Matthew 27:62-66)

No one denies that the mechanical process of his death was agonising. In the flesh, when the time came,he knew what was going to happen, and wondered if this 'cup' might not pass from him.And who could blame him? Our mercilessness and our capacity for cruelty is legendary. And so horrible is the sight of the punishment meted out to him, that God could no longer bear to witness it at a point,making Christ to cry, Why have you forsaken me?

However, the death of Christ was not evil. It was a triumph. After all he was only dead for three days,after which he rose again. He rose in power and prestige,because he actually went through with the plan to make a way directly to God for all men. Priest and prophets,who had that office,became unnecessary.The priests had to be sanctified to be in God's presence. Which is just a fancy way of saying they had to be pure and clean. Christ's sacrifice also paid for that,so anyone who claims that blood is automatically pure and clean and able to be where God is,and converse freely with him.

The death of Christ accomplished lots of things, and it was not 'evil',nor does it become evil because we humans say it is. We don't define 'good' or 'evil' for God. We certainly do not know better than the two powerful spirit beings who decided it was necesary. It's a testament to how powerful Christ is that his death is considred enough to take away every sin for every man that ever lived,for all time. When he rose,it was in utter triumph,his name now the most powerful in the spirit realm. He had succeeded in his objective.

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@ post

I don't know much about this.So many things in the bible have you raising your eyebrows,especially in the Old testament.But people have been editing and revising biblical content as early as AD 383.I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of things have been tampered with,especially in the OT. Human beings are a seething mass of conscious and unconscious desires and motivations,pride,ambition,hidden motives,loves,hates and overriding self-interest. When handed power,religious or political,all those things are inserted into the mix. Anything that has to be filtered through human beings is often tainted by the process.No  one can pretend to know God's mind. While he is holy, he is also infinitely complex, and we cannot reverse the order and create him in our image. We cannot whittle him down and fit him into a round hole. We cannot turn him into what we want him to be,instead of what he is. Maybe I should say we should not, because turning him into what we want him to be is one of the things we do best.

We have been disagreeing about what 'good' and 'evil' is.We don't agree about what constitutes either, we all have our own definitions. We have our own ideas of right and wrong,good and evil. Does that mean God shares our human concepts and definitions of good and evil,right and wrong? Does he consider something good or evil because[i] we[/i] declare it to be so?Isn't it unutterable conceit fo us to imagine we may decide what is good and what is evil[i] for [/i] God,with the tacit understanding that he is somehow bound by our definitions and must adjust his conduct accordingly?Even if all people agree as to what good and evil is,is God somehow bound to act by what we define good and evil to be?He says No.(Isaiah 55:8,9)

Judas was a thief. But the whole thing was never about Christ and Judas. Judases grow wild everywhere. We've all heard of people who would betray someone close to them for reasons of their own; they're in our midst. No, it was between Christ and Satan. When Christ said, "Do what you have to do", he was talking to Satan,not Judas.But the other disciples thought he was telling Judas to go and buy something or whatever. John 13:27/28

As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. "What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him,

The thing is, out thoughts and words and actions have consequences. The evil we do have consequences. And sometimes,unknowing,we suffer for things we have done in the past,or things our parents or even ancestors have done or said.(Mattew 27:25, 2Kings 5:26-27,Jeremiah 39:21,etc) Evil[i] must[/i] be atoned for. It appears to be an inflexible spiritual law,binding on humans and spirits alike. All of Leviticus is about how Jews may atone for different sins. Sins are atoned for by sacrifice. Whatever discomfort that does our genteel sensibilities must be set aside. Sacrifice is how sins are atoned for. When it's done,the person who committed the evil is then guiltless before God, his guilt having passed to the animal sacrificed.

(Hebrews 9:22)

the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with (animal) blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness

That Christ would die was foreknown by God, and agreed to by Christ. The purpose of his death is to be the sacrifice for all sins by all men for all time,so that when we avail ourselves of it,every single bad thing we have ever done is wiped away,and we do not have to suffer or pay for it in any way. (Hebrews 9,Isaiah 53,etc[/i]) Christ not only knew when he would die,he knew how.[i]To impy that Christ was a victim of events,that he was murdered,is to declare that he is not divine, that he is not the Son of God.Human beings may be capable of all sorts of things,but we are not a match for God. Christ was a powerful spirit being.However highly we may think of ourselves, we actually have very little power.If it was not the divine plan for him to be killed, he would[i] not [/i] have been killed. There were attempts on his life,which he casually escaped,because it wasn't yet the 'appointed time' for him to die.(John 10) When the time came for him to be led to his death and Peter leapt to his defence,he told him plainly he would be rescued if he wanted to be rescued,thank you very much. He went to his death because that was the plan with God, for him to die.John 10:18:

No one takes my life from me. I give my life of my own free will. I have the authority to give my life, and I have the authority to take my life back again. This is what my Father ordered me to do."

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Bastage

I so glad I am not on your bad side in this discussion.

@ Topic

If it werent for Judas, Jesus would still be hiding out somewhere in the middle east by now. And sine the UN frowns on capital punishment, he prolly would have ended up with a life sentence leaving christians to their fate.

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I've lost count the number of times I've seen imbeciles spout crap like this only to go on and totally contradict themselves just as you have.

LOL. Like the Qu'ran is any better - the ramblings of a drugged up craddle-robber. Keep shitting in your straw, bro. All of you guys smell just as bad as any fundamentalist Christian.

Hell yeah. But you got something wrong (again). it's not lost on me because I'm a godless heathen. It's lost on me because I'm being addressed by a slowpoke and to tell the truth, I have a short attention span when reading anything written by a dipshit.

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@bastard

i can understand your cravings for attention; sadly it wont be from me. keep braying, donkey, and hopefully someone with less to do might indulge your puerile tirades.

me, i cant lower myself to maggot levels.

and FYI, i'd rather be ANYTHING than a christian if all i have to go with is a disparate collection of contradictory hogwash bound and touted as "word of god".

but then, since you're as godless a heathen as they come (your foul language speaks volumes) i guess its lost on you.

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Oh please.

If you want to advertise your smugness that's fine. But if you're just here to advertise ignorance, try not to bore me too much.

According to you, everyone who was involved in the trial and crucifixion of Christ was a hero. And you call me illogical?

But then, what can one expect from a Muslim conversing about Christianity?

I'm also laughing my Bottom off about you accusing me of recognising dogma when Islam is nothing but one giant system of dogmatic slavery. But then, I guess as you're a drone who doesn't have to think about his religion (you're not allowed to) you have to try to examine Christianity (poorly) as it's the only way you can question any belief system.

A rock? Don't you mean rooster?

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@bastard bastage

you neednt be so insulting, else you only betray your immaturity.

it matters not if you're a dyed-in-the-wool christian or a blinking atheist; my earlier statements border on history and the legend of Judas viz-a-viz the christian perspective.

in any case im muslim so your contextual fulcrum is not on my plate, just as your snide remarks are mere darts hurled at a rock for all the effect they have on me.

if you want me to include pilate and the entire Roman Legion then ask the first poster to amend the subject to "Judas Iscariot et al-Heroes or villains?"

in the meantime you can grow up just a little, it doesnt hurt.

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Not mine . Before you make accusations, try checking up to see if you're talking to a hard-core Christian. You aren't.

So you think that Temptation was not a fulcrum of Christian doctrine? What a laughable statement. Without the Temptation, the story is sorely lacking and is just about as worthless as if you remove any other integral part.

Why not include Pilate in there as a hero too? Or the Roman centurions who arrested Jesus after the last supper? They all played integral parts in your so-called fulcrum.

LOL. Judas was nothing more than a tool of Christianity. Just as you are a tool for making such a dumb statement.

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I think it is unfair to Judge Judas. None of us where there to witness what actually happend and Judas never spoke of his reasons nor did he write a book on why he  betrayed Jesus. Due to the fact that he killed himself shortly after because he ccouldn'tcope with the guilt of what he had done. That! at least, proved the man had a conscience. Many of us today faced with the same, if not lesser circumstances will have betrayed Jesus for even less money and the thought of suicide would not even cross our minds. Keep in mind that Jesus was not as popular then as he is today. We just tend to take a one side look, because Jesus was the son of God. Let us assume Judas needed the money to heal his ailing child or wife or maybe a mother or friend.  So i guess the quesion shoud really be, would you betray your wife, Children and family Even leave everything that you have ever worked for or ever known behind to follow a man that claimed he was the son of some supernatural being you couldn'tee?? When you put it in that perspective I think there is a little bit of Judas in everyone.

Even today with Jesus more popular than ever. Even now when we know he was and is the son of God. We still betray him. I know I do on a daily basis. The only difference is I have a choice to pray of forgiveness, a choice that the disciple Judas dididn't have, and as a result payed the ultimate price by killing himself. So in my books I think he was a man, a human being just like us. Who acted like any person under that circumstance would have acted. Does that make him a hero? you decide but cecertainly not a villain in my books. Just a normal person like us.

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thats pretty crappy illogic.

from the onset we all know satan to be the embodiment of evil with or without the tempting of the christ. the temptation is not a fulcrum of your doctrine (or is it dogma?) in relation to the significance of christ's mission and purpose, which is your salvation.

for this salvation to manifest, his blood had to be shed; for the blodd to be shed, he had to be crucified, and since he was kind of reluctant to get affixed to the cross (fleeing, and remember " my god, why have you forsaken me?" - matthew 27:46 is cry for help in any language, and also remember Gethsemane, where he was so distraught "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."- Luke 22:43–44. remember also he instructed his disciples to sell their garments and buy swords with which to resist capture)

obviously christ didnt want to shed his blood however his earlier  covenant with his father for the necessity of this sacrifice of the Only Begotten.

so as Judas was instrumental in carrying the plot to its intended conclusion in the face of christ's reluctance to die we can wholeheartedly say Judas actually saved christianity.

but like i said earlier, John made it quite clear in an alternate retelling of the legend that christ himself identified himself, therefore making moot Judas' perceived treachery.

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I guess that your question is if I believe the bible to be the word of God. My answer is that I do not believe that the bible is the word of God. Stay blessed.

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Jesus himsellf has said it all. woe unto the man through whom the son of man is betrayed. well, Jesus had told him several times, but he did not act on time. Jesus prayed for Peter who denied him. if after the warning Jesus gave hime , he had prayed, he could have been forgiven. he was chosen because of his greedyness. he often used part of the disciples money for his personal use. by the time he realised what he has done, it was too late. but his grearess mistake was to commit suiced. if he had asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven. our God is a meciful God.[color=#006600][/color]

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Seriously, If it hadnt been for Judas, he would have continued evading the mossad Roman soldiers. Despite the nationwide A.P.B that was put out on him, he somehow kept evading capture (thereby running away from destiny) till Judas stepped in, snitched on him, had him arrested, tried and executed.

Remember that it was said that Jesus healed people, which makes him immune to illness nor sickness. He raised dead folks, which means he cant die, atleast he cant die of natural causes. It was either Judas or the highway. Christian should celebrate Judas with a festival of some sort like a christmas, sometime just before easter.

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Are you kidding? Still alive today?

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That's pretty crappy logic.

One could say the same thing about Jesus being tempted - it was necessary for Satan to tempt Him to prove that he was pure, therefore Satan performed a crucial role, isn't a bad guy and was only helping Jesus to move along.

Same goes for the excuse that Judas was only doing a job and that makes him a good guy. Him and Satan are no different in that respect but you wouldn't suggest the latter was a saviour, would you?

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sigh and slam the door

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if the blood of christ was a prerequisite for christian salvation, therefore meaning christ HAD to be crucified, then Judas Iscariot is the real savior because of the role he performed.

otherwise there wouldnt have been any salvation and the christian portion of mankind would have been doomed to eternally wallow in perpetual sin.

in the bible it says the entire saga of christ's birth in the manger, his wanderings, preachings, death and ascension were all preordained long before earth was created with the knowledge of christ himself.

now if that be the case, jesus knew well before the Seventh Day that a certain Judas was required to play a crucial part in the divine plan to rescue christianity (even though clearly it was actually jews he came to save).

so if Judas was required in a preplanned salvation, how then could he be said to be a villain?

he ought to be celebrated not only as a martyr, but as one who played a vital part in this whole salvation plan. christ KNEW what he came to do, Knew what had to be done (ie shed his blood), knew how this blood shed was to come ( Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him. . . .- John 18:4) and yet neither he nor his father, punishers of Pharaoh's egypt, unravellers of Sodom and Gomorrah, struck Judas down with hale and brimstone. that says a lot.

(but then again one can open a flood of academic debate on the significance of Judas' betrayal of jesus for better or worse in cognizance of John 18:2-9 where Judas didnt need to betray christ; he voluntarily identified himself).

later scribes made Judas out to be a traitor, but is there greater treachery than when Peter denied jesus THREE TIMES?

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nothn good comes out of evil, i guess u knw dat, bt frm ur explanations, u tend to make us believe that in some situations, evil deeds can produce good fruits, or maybe u shud explain further.

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@m_nwankwo

Do u believe the Bible?

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i've watched the 'Gospel of Judas' on history a few times and heard about the customes of that time and i'm convinced that he was a hero.his depiction as a villian i think is just a bias.

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@Richfella

Thanks for your input. I respond to your input as follows:

Thanks for acknowleging that the planning and facilitation of the death of Jesus is not Gods will. However while the planning and facilitation of the death of Jesus is not Gods will, the death itself is Gods will according to you. I have nothing to add if you cannot see the obvious contradition in your statement.

Yes God posesss foreknowlege. Foreknowlege of an event does not mean that it is the will of God. If you want a detailed discussion on prophecy and how it is possible to predict events, open a thread and I will air my views.

Sure God didnot murder Jesus. What exactly do you mean by allowing Jesus to die. Today human beings sin and does it mean because the act of sin took place, it is equivalent to being the will of God. We sin because we choose to, that is what free will is. God will not intervene with our free will since God gave it to us but we are irrevocably bound to the consequences of our choice. Your example of a seed dying and the snake stuff have no relevance to the subject under discussion.

The use of animal or human blood to wash away sins or appease God is peganistic and wheather or not it happened in the old or new times does not change  it. Repentance and reformation is the only road to forgiveness of sins and not human or animal sacrifices. It is indeed strange that the same believer will have a moral outrage when witch doctors and idol worshipers sacrifice humans to their gods, and yet the same believer has no qualms when exactly the same blood sacrifice of the body of the son of God is the foundation for their belief.

What relevance has all these your statements got to do with the topic under discussion.

Neither a sheep or human blood can cleanse an iorta of sin rather such practices are grievious sins against God.

Yes Judas acted out of his free will and that is why the betrayal and subsequent crucifiction is as a result of the free will of men not the will of God. Foreknowlege of an event is not the same thing as the will of God. If you have a telescope that can see up two miles a flock of sheep grazing and at the same time you see a pack of lions close by, you can prophesy to people without a telescope that the lions will kill the sheep. Is it then your will thtat the lions will kill the sheep?

That has not addressed the question. Does being in flesh and blood prevent him even for a second from knowing the will of his Father. The question is why did God the son pray that the cup (death and crucifiction) will pass away since according to your view the cup (crucifiction and death) is the will God the father and the reason for Christ coming on earth.

God knew that we sin and can forsee the sins we will comit tomorrow and yet that foreknowlege do not make God an accomplice in our sin or authorising our sins. Stay blessed.

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No. I'm not. Only someone with a shallow understanding would say that.

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i so much enjoyed readin this thread.

i definitely agree with all d points m_nwankwo has made.

over time, i have to question d authenticity of some bible writings, so many contradictions

judas committed an evil deed, yet he fulfilled the will of God, does God achieve his will towards mankind thru an evil means

wat is evil is evil and wat is good is good , there is no justification 2wards evil, so all d examples and illustrations been made by bastage and co is total rubbish. i cant see any grey area btw evil and good.

wats bastage is tryin 2 tell us is that the end justifies the means which is outrightly wrong

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As the story of Judas is integral to the whole Christ story he must be seen as a villain.

We can't prove that he even existed in real life so he can't be vindicated.

Even if we took the gnostic story of Judas, it's irrelevant. The story of Christ in the New Testament is the basis of Christianity and that makes it clear that Judas is a villain. Anything else is needless conjecture. The nature of Judas' relevance to the Christ story over-rides any other view but guilty.

A real-life Judas may have been innocent. But if that is the case, he is not the Judas in the NT. A comparison would be to say that a real life Jesus was merely a prophet - in that case, he would not be the saviour figure of the NT.

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Judas was a Villain not a Hero!

Judas is not the worst character in the Bible but he blew up the chance he had to turn from being a villain to a hero.

I am sure we all know about Saul turned apostle Paul. He commited greater crimes but he later repented and today, he that was persecuting christians has now become the hero of christians, simply because of a genuine repentance.

Judas was used to fulfil the prophecy, but the prophecy did not say that he would commit murder. The prophecy was fulfiled by his betrayal but a genuine simple repentance would have saved him and turned him a matry and a hero. He shouldnt have killed himself. If he had faced the consequences of betraying the Messiah, the condemnation and the likely attack from the believers then would have either led to his matrydom. After his matrydom, they would have realised the importance of his role and genuine repentance and he would have turned a hero.

His refusal to face the consequences, i believe, robbed him of that status of Heroism.

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hmmmm, free thinkers are taking over Nairaland

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Whether Judas Iscariot is a hero or a villian is 'questio disputatis'. He fulfilled what was ordained. He betrayed the son of God. His actions led to the salvation of mankind. He played a major role in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Though he regretted his deed, he went too far by taking his life. Yet he fulfilled God's words. Think of it!

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The people who knew him said that he was a thief,a villian used of the devil and better if he had not been born

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Hello guys,

Those who are not comfortable with the topic can kindly move on.

@max, nwankwo & bastage

Can you kindly give drive your points home to the thread my head is spinning.

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Guess he is in heaven now?!

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@why asking silly question when you are no longer a christian? Even if the right answer is given you will still remain the likes of Banon, okija_juju, thetruth and the rest of them. since you are no longer a christian, i dont't think christian things will be pleasant or useful to you.

your question is irrelevant.

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@chrisbenogor

U said most of the topics here

are always insignificant.

How does this sound significant?

Why cant u go back to where

u came from, Christendom

and learn better.

Such a silly question.

what do u mean by if

Judas Iscariot is a HERO or VILLIAN?

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You can ask any question. I will aswer and where I do not know or do not wish to answer, I will say so. Stay blessed.

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@Mad_Max

Hi,

Yes, good and evil are not relative for one who is spiritually alive. It certainly is for those who use their mind and brains for jugement and many human beings fall into that category. As I have repeatedly said on this forum if one is confronted with a situation in which one is in doubt of what is good or evil, then pray to God for guidance and the guidance will come in very clear unambigous way.

Ones earthly position does not take away his personal responsibilities. A judje is responsible to God for all his judjements and he cannot claim protection because he is following the law of the land. If the laws of the land contradicts what a judje knows to be against the commandment of God, then the judje should quit his job and find something else to do. The same applies to all profession. Thus in the case you mentioned the Judje is also guilty of murder for no human being or nation has the right to terminate the life of another. Thus capital punishment is against the laws of God. No only the Judje is guilty but all human beings who in thought want the criminal to be hanged. When they depart this life they will be shocked at what awaits them. Just another example. A young woman is Molested in London and people including contributes in nairaland condem such atrocity. Unknown to the condemers, they have contributed to the molest by harbouring lustful thoughts. The lustful thoughts find a willing tool in the Molester in London. Spiritually, the Molester and all human beings that harbour lust are guilt of the molest.

No, God does not kill nor tell anybody to kill. The laws of God return to each person, each nation, the fruits of their seeds. When men oppose the will of God, that opposition is the seed and at maturity, the fruit of the seed returns to the originators and destroy them.   The commandment of God is "Though shall not Kill" and their are no exceptions. Thus wheather it is in the old or new time if a man or a nation say that God ordered them to kill, then they need spiritual help.

If my points on things that are in the bible does not agree with your soul, then ignore them. Each person should only accept what his or her soul has personally recognised. If deep within you spirit you believe that everything in the bible is true, then hold on to it. I just offer my views and you are welcomed to agree, disagree or ignore them. Stay blessed

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@m_nwankwo

I have to ask questions that may seem a little naive. It's not to be 'challenging', as I realise a few people have the amazing ability to wrap a tone of voice aroung black and white letters. I'm merely curious. And why shouldn't I be? Your ideas are, I don't know, interesting? Some I 'get',like people's thoughts colouring the environment and influencing unseen events, how owning a gun might attarct a situation where you'll have to use it, which might not happen if you didn't own a gun in the first place,etc. Other ideas are downright bizarre. I've been trying to restrain my curiousity about the past lives you say you've experienced and can recall, and other stuff. However, I am going to ask questions you might consider 'hard'. Would you prefer I don't?

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Would you agree that spirituality is relative to each individual?

If so and spirituality is the way you make your judgement, good an evil cannot be anything else but relative.

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what are you guys feeding on.

Horse poo or what?

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Divine guidance sounds to me like an Excellent Answer. Exactly how I would hope to answer myself.

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Hi again Bastage

I have given you an aswer but it is obvious that the philosophical question was posed to elicit a definite answer. I keep to my original answer since the scenario is not real and besides it assumes that the scenario is an independent event and not a small part of a continum. In my declaration of God guiding me lies a deeper answer to the puzzle you posed. I have nothing more to add to it.

If you are in Hiroshima or Narkasaki, you may re-examine wheather the drop of atomic bomb saved lives.

No, my decisions are not based on morality as the world knows it. Morality only takes account of shadows, that is, visible actions and words. It has no access to physically invisible realities like motives, intent, thoughts, imagination, much less the spiritual will. If one is capable of silencing the human mind and the human brain, then thoughts, imagination,feelings, words and earthly visible actions will be silence, and the spiritual will will become clear. It is the spiritual will that determines evil or good. That has been the crux of my point.

It is the sense of good and evil that changes but not good and evil. Their is a difference between what is and how different people percieve what is. The perception of what is, is a reflection of the spiritual maturity of each culture. It is like a light source of precise intensity. If you are very far away from the source of the light, it looks dim, the closer you get, the brighter it gets and yet the intensity remains the same. Thus it is not the goal post that was moved but it is that some cultures are so far away from the goal post that they do not even see it and as the move closer to the goal post, such cultures the see the goal post. If you have undergone an inward experience that moves you, you will actully see people you know differently, even seasons will look different to you. Spring, summer winter or autum have not changed but your inward experience changed your sense or perception of people and seasons.

It is ok if it does not make sense. There is no doubt that the bible contributed to my spiritual development. But my belief is based on personal spiritual experiences.

Philosophers should pray for spirtual experience and their intellectual puzzles will fade away. Let our words be simple and true even in the most insiginificant matters. Again the example you cited is dealing with shadows and not with the spirtual will that caused the shadows (visible actions and words). Yes she lied and even though her lie might have saved the friends life, that does not change the lie to good. It is just that in this case her intent is to save his friends life and that will mitigate the consequences of her lie but not annul it or change it to good. The guiding principle of true love is to live in such a way as not to harm the body, mind, soul, spirit or even the reputation of your neighbour in the fufilment of your desires. If one is not sure wheather what he is to do is evil or good, one should pray for spirtual guidance and the calrification will come. In the case you mentioned the right attitude is for Jane to tell the truth and still prevent John from driving. Their are several options to stop John from driving without lieing about car keys. Most importantly, the problem here is alcoholism and Jane shoud help John to overcome this evil propensity. If not they have just postponed the car crash. Thanks again for your well reasoned inputs and stay blessed.

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It was just an example and I have no wish to go in-depth in the subject here but:

http://hnn.us/articles/52353.html

Every single author agrees that an invasion of Japan would have cost the US more war dead and casualties than in the whole of the preceeding war. The top figure given there is over twice as many. That is without even taking into account the horrendous figure that Japan would have lost.

There was a rumour of a conditional surrender. But a rumour was all it was and a conditional surrender was unacceptable. Japan's "fight to the last bullet" attitude totally contradicted any rumours anyway.

I'll leave it there because as I said, it's not something that warrants going in-depth in this thread.

But what it does do is illuminate the grey area between good and evil. You see it as an evil. I see it as an evil that was necessary for good to come about or to stop a bigger evil from happening.

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@m_nwankwo,

You say good and evil isn't sometimes relative, and yet the cold hard reality of our lives is that it is. There are things we would all agree is evil,no matter the spin. A man beating a child to death for no other reason than he could, say. Others things appear to be a matter of perception. All killing except in self defence is murder, you say? What if the above mentioned man were caught and, as punishment for his crime, the judge issues him a death penalty.The guy's killed. He didn't attack the judge and the judge isn't defending himself, and yet he's ordered a man killed, by the power vested in him by the state. Since it isn't self-defence, by your defintion the judge's commited murder,right? What about the men carry out the judges's orders and put the man to death? And I see in the Old Testament God would tell Israelites to kill. And not in self-defence either. By your definition that makes the Old Testament God what? Or are those parts of the Bible doctored as well? I hope you're not saying whichever parts of the bible fits in with your beliefs are genuine, but those that don't, are not?If there are aspects of the bible that aren't legit,and I agree no book is human-proof, surely you must have verifiable proof that meddling took place?

@Bastage

Again with the US dropped the bomb on Hiroshina to save more lives thing? Once I could take, but twice? It's driving me crazy! The US dropped the bomb on Japan after the war was practically won, because

1. They'd spent $2000 billion on it,and they had to justify the expense. You know how much money that was in 1944?

2. They were curious to see exactly what it could do.

They'd been fighting for years, Japan on one hand and Hitler on the other, and war tends to deaden people's moral perceptions. The US governement is comprised of people,not saints.Apart from Pearl Harbour, at no time did Japan have the upper hand in the war. They'd exhausted the element of surprise with that. And the US broke their communications code early in the war,without Japan being aware. So the US had access to their military plans and strategy. The knew of every attack in advance, and would move their troops out of the way, or lay an ambush. The war dragged on for four years. As at the time those bombs were dropped everyone in the US Govt knew Japan was going to surrender a month or so earlier. So they hurriedly dropped the bombs,somehow maniaging to 'misinterperete' Japan's concession as 'contempt'. They wiped out three crowded cities. Whose lives did the bombs save exactly?  Yes yes I know you're using that as an example, but, there was no nobility on the part of the US here, and they're not getting assigned one just like that.

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Honestly I am in knots here, but I think I will sway towards bastage on the issue of good and evil mainly because ones spiritual experience would be a sum total of the environment in which you find yourself.

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