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The Miracles Of Christ Were Immediate But Our Pastors' Own Happens Later. Why?

The miracles of Christ in the Bible were immediate and there was no way he commanded his follower to claim a healing that did not occur, or start confessing a miracle and wait for it to happen until some of them painfully die. But why would these pastors be rejoicing and swaying the crowds after a miracle? Jesus told the healed ones never to sin no more and he went his way, he even commanded some to even keep it confidential. So what are we seeing nowadays?

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They perform miracles - they empty your pocket so fast

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How To Judge Healers

Here's how we are to judge, discern and test those who claim to be able to heal.

Teachings

Most importantly we are to judge healers first by what they teach. If their teaching deviates from the core doctrines of the Faith as found in the sixty-six books of the Bible we are to avoid them and warn others against them.

Prophecies

An equally important test to apply is to test the truth of alleged prophecies from the Lord made by the healer. If a prophet does not tell the truth while claiming to have a direct line or communication from God, that prophet is to be avoided like the plague. It doesn't matter if he can bring fire down from heaven and raise the dead, he is not to be trusted.

Fruit of the Spirit (not gifts)

The more difficult test, yet a biblical one, is the fruit of the Spirit. We're not talking about the gifts of the Spirit, but the fruit of the Spirit. We are to look for the attributes of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control in their lives. False healers can act like they have these, but usually they betray themselves sooner or later in one way or another. The meetings of faith healers are almost always places where people are being fleeced of their money and faith healers are reaping the profits. This is not the fruit of goodness and kindness, but of greed and a lack of sympathy for the less fortunate. They betray themselves to be false brethren when they do these things.

How Not To Judge Healers

Healers should not be tested, as to whether or not Biblical Divine Healing is happening in their ministries, on the merits of the miracles themselves. Bear in mind that every deception of the enemy is also leading up to the big end times deception of the Antichrist and the False Prophet. The False Prophet will bring fire down from heaven and likely heal the Antichrist. The Lord states clearly that there will be many who claim to prophesy, cast out demons and do miracles that He never knew (Matthew 7:21-23). The secular world, as well as much of what is called the "Church" today, has been conditioned to judge the validity of a ministry or a person by virtue of the signs and wonders he can perform. This is not a good basis for judgment, especially because these same things are being done by occultists now and will ultimately be done by the False Prophet.

Conclusion

The conclusion of this matter is simple. You can have your body healed but lose your soul. So you should test any alleged Biblical Divine Healing claim by testing the person to see if he is a true teacher, a true prophet, and exhibits the fruit of the Spirit. If they fail this test, no matter how spectacular the healing and no matter if it happened to you personally, get away from false teachers and false prophets. God can and still does heal with Biblical Divine Healing. If you want healing, ask the Lord. Go to the elders of your church and have them pray for you. But stay away from healing crusades and Christian shaman masquerading as true men of God.

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Psychological Healing

There are many helps to healing that come under the heading of Psychological Healing, some positive and some negative. In the positive category would be things like positive thinking. The benefits of positive thinking and having a happy, carefree attitude have an effect on health issues, especially on emotional problems. But it can also affect the physical, particularly where the root problem is psychological to begin with. Keep in mind that positive thinking is not Divine Healing, but is a change of attitude. Adrenaline and serotonin can also play a role in making people feel better, even in thinking they are healed when they aren't. This is one of the key factors we see in the modern "faith healer" crusades. People are pronounced healed by Biblical Divine Healing who have merely been manipulated to the point where adrenaline or serotonin are released, thus helping them to get up out of their wheelchair for a time, or feel like they are healed. The problem is that this is a temporary condition and wears off. It can even be detrimental to their health in the long run. Along with emotional manipulation to get people to the point where their body excretes pain reducing chemicals, is outright hypnosis. This is another trick in the "faith healer's" bag of tricks. People are brainwashed and put into an altered state of consciousness by loud repetitious music, repetition of key phrases, group dynamics and reinforcement techniques, and other cultic practices. Finally they end up in a type of trance state where they suspend their cognitive faculties in favor of a pure emotional experience. This can lead to delusions of healing and visions that are not real. Hypnosis has ties to Paranormal/Demonic Healing that cannot be ignored.

(a) Sometimes immediate, mostly slow

Sometimes an immediate rush of body chemicals can cause temporary alleviation of pain, euphoria, etc. But this is not true healing, it is only temporary. Generally positive thinking is a slow process that may bring some healing over time.

(b) May or may not last

Again, the effects of Psychological Healing are only lasting if the original condition was psychologically induced, or if the emotional state of the person directly affects their physical health. Chemicals and hypnosis usually wear off over time. In any cases, this type of "healing" is temporary over time and will have to be "experienced" over and over.

(c) Almost impossible to verify

Needless to say, Psychological Healing is almost impossible to verify in any way known to modern science, or even experientially. That "faith healers" would use this type of healing to justify themselves is scandalous when science can't even adequately explain the mechanisms and effects involved.

(d) God deserves the glory, mostly glory is given to self

Though God does deserve the glory for creating the mind and body that responds to Natural Healing, Medicinal/Medical Healing and Psychological Healing, this type of healing is rarely attributed to God. It is almost always attributed to psychology, faith healers or the individual. God does help people emotionally, mentally, psychologically to promote healing, but it is not Biblical Divine Healing as was demonstrated by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

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Continuing from post #92 above.

Medicinal/Medical Healing

Medicinal healing can be obtained by using plants, herbs and many other substances God created for us to use. Because of the accumulated human learning we have acquired over the millennia that God's grace has tarried, we also have much wisdom in the healing arts that have been passed down to us. Practitioners of Medical Healing today are doctors, dentists, and many other healing professions.

There is a lot of evidence of Medicinal Healing in the Bible (2 Chronicles 28:15, Jeremiah 8:22, 1 Timothy 4:3,5:23) as well as Medical Healing (Ezekiel 30:21, Colossians 4:14). Interestingly, the nations will eventually be healed by the fruit and leaves from a tree, the Tree of Life (Ezekiel 47:12, Revelation 22:2).

Medicinal/Medical Healing should not be confused with Divine Healing. They are totally different.

(a) Mostly slow, rarely fast

Most treatments, both medicinally and medically, promote slow healing. There are a few exceptions. A shot of pain killer can quickly mask pain. Ice water on a burn can almost immediately soothe the pain. But in both these cases actual healing takes a longer time.

(b) May or may not last

This type of healing can promote lasting healing, but can also simply give temporary healing.

(c) Fairly verifiable

Medicinal Healing is fairly verifiable when Natural Healing has not worked. But there are other factors that could also be at play, including Psychological Healing. Medical Healing can often be measured when accurate charts are kept. But again it is not an exact science and other factors could be at play at the same time.

(d) God deserves the glory; mostly glory is given to man

Again, God deserves the glory for creating the plants and other natural materials necessary to develop medicines. He also deserves the glory for allowing the human race to be around long enough to, through trial and error, develop what is today medical knowledge that can help many people. Unfortunately the glory usually goes to the medicine or the medical practitioner.

Medicinal/Medical Healing generally happens over and over through the lifetime of the individual for various problems that can reoccur if not treated. Biblical Divine Healing is a one time event dealing with a specific disease. God can and does use Medicinal/Medical Healing to heal people, particularly when righteous Christians are praying that the Lord will give the medical practitioner wisdom to know how to treat a given problem. But it is not Biblical Divine Healing as was demonstrated by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

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As I stated in an earlier post there are basically five types of healing in the world today.

1. Biblical Divine Healing,

2. Natural Healing,

3. Medicinal/Medical Healing,

4. Psychological Healing, and

5. Paranormal/Demonic Healing.

Having dealt with Biblical Divine Healing, let me address natural healing

Natural Healing

Natural healing is a feature that God created in all plant, animal and human life. The information needed to effect a great deal of healing in the human body is part of our genetic code. Natural healing is the type of healing that occurs most often. It is truly a gift from God, but most people don't even give it a second thought. There is evidence for Natural Healing in the Bible

1.

God created us, carries (sustains) us, and rescues us (Isaiah 46:4).

We must be careful to be truthful about what is Natural Healing versus Divine Healing.

They are two radically different processes.

(a) Slow

Natural Healing is, for many reasons, a slow process. Over time the body heals itself, giving itself time to rest and recoup.

(b) May or may not last

Natural Healing usually lasts until the next sickness, injury or other problem presents itself. But Natural Healing is not always a cure all. There are times when the body is overwhelmed and, without outside help, it cannot heal itself. Also, if the body becomes weakened, such as a weak immune system, the body may no longer be able to repair itself and disease may continually reoccur.

(c) Verifiable and hard to verify

Natural healing is many times verifiable because it is obvious when a person gets better (e.g. headache goes away), when a cut heals, etc. But it can also occur yet be mistaken for other types of healing. A person may think the pill they are taking for Medicinal Healing cured them, but it could be mainly due to Natural Healing or other types of healing.

(d) God deserves the glory, mostly glory is given to man

Though God deserves all the glory for creating our bodies with the wonderful ability to repair themselves, most of the glory these days is being given to man. The Bible teaches that we are actually devolved from the pure genetic code of Adam and Eve and those who lived before the flood. Unfortunately man often glories in his own abilities and attributes without giving credit where credit is ultimately due.

Natural Healing happens over and over through the lifetime of the individual. Unfortunately WoF mistakes natural healing for biblical divine healing (i.e. confusing God's providential provision with the miraculous)

Biblical Divine Healing is a one time event dealing with a specific disease. God has provided the body with marvelous self healing functions. But Natural Healing is not Biblical Divine Healing. God can work through Natural Healing, but it is not Biblical Divine Healing as was demonstrated by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

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Right hand side is not making reference t a geographical position but rather a spirituual position of authority. Is like calling someone your righthand man. It doesnt mean Jesus is seated at right side chair. Dont take it literary

Ephes. 2:6

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If we should take this literary ,Are you in heaven now?

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Jesus did not need to claim he was God , there is no point asking for verses on that. He is not the one to bear witness of himself.He was a focused person. He would rather refer you to testimony of others concernig him.

The book of Isaiah had testified of him before;

Luke 4:18

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

When John sent people to confirm his messiaship he only made reference to the testimony of Isaiah: He didnt say I am Messiah or I am not.

Luke 7:20

When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? [22] Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

He doesnt bear witness of himself.He will rather refer to the witness of God through others

John 5:31-32

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

[32] There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

So if you want to know if je was God check the witnesses of the father through the prophets about him

but if you are just concerned about his personal claim to be God ,like those muslim schollars , it is waste of time because his purpose was not to come as God even though he is God. he is more concerned about his humanity as man's representative being the Last Adam.

1 John 4:2-3

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: [3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

But was he God ? Yes he was and he is. how do you know? from the witnesses of others.

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Col. 1:16-17

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:8

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

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@Deep Sight,

This is besides whatever opinion you have recently gained about me. . .

I want to remind you of our discussion some weeks ago, where I clearly outlined the hypostasis of Christ's nature using an analogy of a movie-director, a movie star and a script-writer, where ALL are the same person; compare that with The Holy Spirit of God, Jesus Christ the manifest Word of God, and God the Father. But even then, you still said it could not make sense that way. We agreed to disagree.

IMO, I don't think this deity / humanity thing could be further explained to you, it may be like trying to explain the taste of pepper to someone who is new to all spices.

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It's quite laughable that after apologising for derailing the thread, you would not let up on that. You're a very funny character indeed.

Please show me an instance of any other "eternal Being" and what it connotes for such a Being to be eternal as different from an "uncaused cause" itself.

Christ did not deny the fact that many people would come claiming that they were Christs or that they would come in His Name (Matt. 24:5). Funny that Christ did not come claiming that He was Olumba Olumba or Guru whatever, haha! But that any of these folks may be said to have claimed to be Christ or God in the Biblical sense does not qualify them so, in so much that none of them could point to any verse attesting such claims for themselves. We're not on here about your concerns for cults - I earlier noted that you were close to that very thing in the manner you argue this issue.

He did not misguide any fellow. The verse you quoted does not read what you wanted it to read:

(a) yours: {"Mark 10:18: “Do not call me good, only God is good.”}

(b) KJV: {"Mark 10:18: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."}

In that verse, Jesus was not asserting that the enquirer should not call Him good; rather, He questioned the enquirer: "Why do you call me good". Nor does that verse say that Jesus denied His deity - notice He did not say: 'do not call me God', or you would be again lying through your yellow teeth, sorry.

However, that it was a question is in sync with His manner of highlighting a most pivotal subject. In Luke 6:46, He employed that same linguistic device - "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord," - which is not saying that He was denying His Lordship! In very fact, He affirmed His Lordship to His disciples in John 13:13 - "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."

Perhaps you ought to be careful when citing verses for what they imply rather than trying to make far fetched implications of what those verses do not say, in your attempt to gull your readers. Mark 10:18 does not read Jesus saying "Do not call me good" - rather, it questioned the enquirer: "Why callest thou me good?" Does He also deny that He was good? No, unless you want to again attempt to gull your readers by ignoring His statements in other passages where Jesus categorically referred to Himself as "good" -

* Matthew 20:15 - 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?

Is thine eye evil, because I am good?'

* John 10:14 - 'I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep,

and am known of mine.'

Mark 10:18 does not tell us that Jesus was denying His Deity, sorry.

You need to go over to Revelation where Jesus Himself attested to His Deity on the same basis as the Father. When you do so, then you would begin to understand that your ontological excuses are best left to small minds - which was prolly why you could be so comical as to have referred to His statements in John 5:23 as "his delusions". When the pie suits your gull, you frantically quote it; but when other verses from the same Bible begin to waste your arguments, you turn round and try to write off the direct statements of Jesus as "delusions", no?

Spiritually and ontologically, no where does Jesus deny His deity. That He affirmed His Humanity is undoubted; but we are yet to see any verses where He had categorically denied His Deity.

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Nope, ask Tudor: my tongue could be far sharper where it matters. I just don't think your fanatical attitude against Christians should be treated with kids gloves, especially after repeatedly calling your attention to your misplaced fundamentalism.

Not at all - I could care much less whatever you want to 'challenge'. Fact is, you're not challenging nothing but rather seeking grounds so many times to vomit your arrogance on Christians for finding your deism at odds with Biblical teaching.

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@aletheia, many thanks and God's blessings be yours.

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1. At the very best that can only serve as a claim to being an eternal being. That is much different from claiming to be the primordial uncaused cause itself.

2. So what if he said "I AM?" Anybody can say the same: it would not make them God! Guri Maharaji says the same; so does Olumba Olumba Obu and gazillions of cult-like sect leaders thoughout history. Are they all God? Please.

3. If that was his intention then please explain why he dliberately misguided a simple fellow who called him "good teacher" - rushing to immediately state that such an appellation cannot apply to him and must be reserved for God. Care to also explain at whose right hand he is said to rise to be sitted at in heaven? Care to explain why he states that he is not omniscient, whereas God is? I could go on.

That was the Jews ignorant presumption. Because Jesus made himself pretty clear on what the statement "I and the Father are one" meant.

Jesus himself explained the term "I and my Father are one" severally. He stated unequivocally that he and his father were one in the same way as we should be one with him. Now are you Jesus? No. But you are one with him in spirit as a christian, yes?

Thus the oneness was a oneness of accord, and not an ontological or existential oneness as an entity.

This verse elucidates and proves the point:

John 17:20-23: “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”

Its abundantly clear that its a spiritual and not ontological or existential oneness. There. That's Bible proof.

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@ viaro.

Thanks for your observations but I 'd like to respond a bit.

1. Like I stated in my post, there are other types of healings (I will still post more concerning the other types) apart from the miraculous ones. Indeed, not all healing described in the bible was miraculous (Epaphroditus, Trophimus, Timothy). But where it occurred, the bible often gave enough detail so that what occurred was verifiable.

2. Where WoF proponents get it wrong is their not distinguishing between God's providential processes which can occur through natural healing and miracles of the sort described in the bible.

3. The distorted doctrine of WoF discountenances God's sovereignty, a point that ttalks made earlier.

4. That I placed heart failure in parentheses after dropsy was to help the non-medical have a better understanding of that archaic word (By virtue of my training I am well aware of the various connotations of that word).

Otherwise, I do not think I disagree much with you

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@DeepSight

You asked for an instance of Jesus claim to Deity

Compare that answer to this

You can imagine the impact of Jesus' words to the Jews. That statement affirmed his preexistence, "before Abraham was" and his Deity "I am"

Any wonder then that they reacted thus:

And that wasn't the only time

The Jews clearly understood Jesus' claim to Deity. Why don't you?

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@ttalks,

Thanks for the points you made - I appreciate some, and the above may need a balancing off.

Faith is important in our walk with God at every level - we all know that. Yet, in some matters, we recognize that we need to 'strengthen' our faith (Luke 17:5 - 'the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith').

Perhaps, at other times though, we need to recognize that a faith as small as a mustard seed is not sufficient to accomplish certain results. 'Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting' (Matt. 17:21).

Yet, I appreciate your point that 'all depends on God's will and purpose as regarding that point in time'.

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You were not half witted to discuss the subject; and if I were a deist I could have fetched well over a hundred verses in both the OT and NT about the Humanity of Jesus and used them to argue endlessly against His deity. I only gave you at most three verses of the NT showing the affirmation of His Deity, and the fact that Jesus did not deny His deity in any of the verses you cited is very telling.

I have no problem with your deism, as long as you don't try to use your narrow reflections to bedevil Christians for what they believe. You many times act like a fanatic - and I should have known the fact before trying to mellow things off on your behalf when Atheists pointed out your misplaced fundamentalism. You can discuss with people without fanatically barking your slobbers at them simply because they believe differently from your narrow deism. It is issues like the way you act that engender unnecessary diatribes and rubbishes your own worldview, not to mention altogether derailing threads. What happened to you?

You should change from this attitude.

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What happened to you too, Viaro: You always seemed amiable and decent: of late your tongue competes with Tudor's!

And i quote this from YOUR comments in the thread you referenced above:

Could it be that you are caustic to me just because i challenge your belief system?

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Miracles occuring;immediate or not immediate, are all dependent on the will and mercy of God. It is not about the faith or amount of faith.

jo agbaje said something about praying for the dead to rise and none had risen yet. He alluded that his faith not being at a certain level was the reason for this.

That is false. The bible says if one's faith could even be as little as that of a mustard seed, a lot could happen. . . . . . . .

So, it isn't about the faith not being at a particular level that some miracles do not happen or whatever. It all depends on God's will and purpose as regarding that point in time.

If it is not God's will that a dead person rise again, there is no amount or level of faith displayed or acted upon that can raise such a person to life.

One thing we should always remember in our prayers or hopes in faith is that God's will is supreme and if our intentions and desires fall in line with it, a lot could and can happen.

1 John 5:14

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Well Viaro; i have given ELEVEN verses many of which explicity kill off the idea of the deity of Christ. I am not inclined to help you through the grammar as you always expect me to: as any body who reads those verses can see that he denied divinity severally.

@ OP - My sincere apologies for derailing the thread.

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Pathological liar. None of the verses you cited showed Jesus denying His deity, but rather affirming His Humanity. Both His Humanity and Deity are taught in both the OT and NT. Try again, liar.

John 5:23. Lie again.

Did already - and a few, refer to my reply here. You're not half smart.

No one intelligent enough would be mixing up and confusing between His Humanity and His Deity. Could you please try lying again? Thanks in advance.

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I laugh when pple ask for proof of Jesus' miracles&sayings,its still amounts to frivolity to ask such questions.Matthew,mark,james,john,peter&paul(appointed later) were witnesses to d life&times of Jesus

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I honour Him because He says so - John 5:23. Cultists who go about with red lies all over the place are the ones who deny that verse and refer to it as "his delusions".

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Yes, oneness of infinite - and the Bible does not teach the arrant nonsense that you tried to pass off for OOI.

That God is One and Infinite is not OOI - the oneness of infinity doctrine of your deism is a huge lie - we have tried to follow you to show this, but you kept jumping from one infinity to three infinities to zero infinity to a singularity that collapsed into an illiterate nothingness. That is not what the Bible teaches, and only cultists with red eyes go about stealing words and claiming the Bible teaches their cultism.

Nope, the Bible does not teach the deistic oneness of infinity. That is another attempt to gull the public, because since you have failed to impress even yourself on that rubbish, you think by hanging it on the Bible, all would be fair weather. Please find another illiterate  excuse to hang your non-starter.

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On my part, I have shown a few verses where Jesus denied his Deity.

I don't see any of the verses you cited as showing that Jesus affirmed His Deity.

If you have any verse where Jesus said He WAS God, please show

I have provided proof in to-to. If you were actually an intelligent reader, that should not have been difficult to see.

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You have been arguing that Jesus used every opportunity to show that He was NOt God. Let me quote you: "Did Jesus not make clear AT EVERY OPPURTUNITY that he was NOT God ? ? ?"

On my part, I have shown a few verses where Jesus affirmed His Deity. I don't see any of the verses you cited as showing that Jesus denied His Deity. If you have any verse where Jesus said He was not God, please show.

I have done so.

If you were actually an intelligent reader, that should not have been difficult to see.

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Oneness of Infinity again? Another way in which you call the Bible a book of lies?

Because the bible clearly states that God is ONE and it also states that God is INFINITE or eternal.

So ya bible agrees with the Oneness of Infinity -  each time you deny it - you are denying the Bible.

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Joker. What's the import of a verse where he asks to be honoured as against the ELEVEN verses i pointed out clearly debunking the idea that he is God? ? ?

Carry on with your worship of a dead Jewish Rabbi - whatever rocks ya boat.

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I have asked you and i am still asking: in which of those verses did Jesus ever say that he WAS God? ? ? ? ?

Now please show me where Jesus affirmed His deity and said that He WAS God in any verse - just show the verse.

Joker.

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^^ You just confirmed it is trademark with you to derail threads - well done.

You can use all the colours in the universe to slob as much as you want, it changes nothing about the simplicity of the case set before you about honouring Jesus as we honour the Father - John 5:23. Not in one instance have I called God a liar; so where did you get that from?

I have asked and still asking: in which of those verses did Jesus ever say that He was not God? One verse would have sufficed, not your charade of frantically and fanatically rushing to other verses that did not show any statement of His denying His deity. Please show me that verse where Jesus ever denied His deity, if you may, or if you can - that would be more gentlemanly, than being such a circus.

The same apostle Paul referred to Jesus Christ as God - "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" Titus 2:13.

Romans 9:5 - "Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

We know of both the Humanity and Deity of Christ - as shown in both the OT and NT. The Bible teaches both, and not just His Humanity. Now please show me where Jesus denied His deity and said that He was not God in any verse - just show the verse.

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Lol. Why don't YOU show me the verse where he asserts that he IS God? ? ?

After all, he who asserts must prove.

Especially when the assertion is a psycotic claim to the divinity of one Jewish man.

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Here - the word's of the Jewish Rabbi you worship - knock yourself out denying each and every one of them: as i stated earlier your favourite pastime seems to be calling your God a liar since you reject ALL his words such as these. . .

John 8:40: "you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.”

John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 14:28: "You heard me say,'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God.

Mark 10:18: “Do not call me good, only God is good.”

From the foregoing there can be NO DOUBT, that Jesus NEVER, NOT EVEN FOR ONE SECOND, regarded himself as God. Notwithstanding anything the hero-worshipping Apostles will tell you. But even they said a lot to show that they didn’t think so –

1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:3: “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Acts 2:22 - “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”

Acts 2:36: “God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Yep - start the usual o.rgy of thrashing away your Jesus' own statements!

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^^^ Where in all of those did Jesus ever say that He was not God? If you had no verse, simply say so and stop making yourself further shallow.

Because you would rather remain the infantile liar you are, that is why you refer to His statements now as 'his delusions'. I laugh at your foolishness. I'm not here for your artsy somersaults: I asked a series of simple questions - you returned your cosmetic answers. Does John 5:23 serve as your most severe problem to deal with?

You're quickly getting fed up with your hallmark, no? Perhaps you should have respected that point before attempting to derail the thread - that's classic of your style these days, so what's your retirement about that supposed to serve?

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Did Jesus ever anywhere clearly say that he was God?

I cannot account for his delusions in claiming such an honour.

What is clear is that he stated the following -

"Do not call me good, only God is good"

"The Father is greater than I"

"OF THAT DAY AND HOUR NO MAN KNOWS. . .NOT EVEN THE SON , .BUT ONLY THE FATHER. . ." - CLEARLY SHOWING THAT HE LACKED OMNISCIENCE - A KEY ATTRIBUTE OF GOD.

And many many more; including shamefully petitioning himself in Gethsemane to avert an event that he himself (as God) had pre-destined. What comedy.

You can spend your weekend creating artsy somersaults to once again escape the BRUTALLY CLEAR words of your own carpenter God. . . it is afterall your hobby to call him a liar - given that you have never accepted any of his clear words as being true.

As for me I am weary of it all - we have argued this too many times anyway; and it will also amount to derailing the thread.

[quote][/quote]

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^^ Please don't amuse us with your theatricals. NONE of those verses ever stated Jesus saying "I am NOT God".

However, my questions to you still stand - you can choose to address them honestly, or again shout out in all caps to show your frustrations -

* Did Jesus ever anywhere clearly say that He was NOT God?

* If He did say so at any time at all, would it make sense to you that He Himself

claimed the very same honour that men render to the Father in John 5:23?

* If you do not render Jesus that same honour that is due to the Father,

are you even rendering any honour to the Father if you deny what Jesus

said in that verse?

* If you do not render Jesus that same honour as He stated in that verse,

would you not be denying His statement there?

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Did Jesus ever anywhere clearly say that He was NOT God? If He did say so at any time at all, would it make sense to you that He Himself claimed the very same honour that men render to the Father in John 5:23? If you do not render Jesus that same honour that is due to the Father, are you even rendering any honour to the Father if you deny what Jesus said in that verse? If you do not render Jesus that same honour as He stated in that verse, would you not be denying His statement there?

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Sat down at the right hand side of whom - himself? ? ? ? ?

I laugh.

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Give me a break. AT NO TIME ON THIS FORUM HAVE YOU OR ANYONE ELSE ADDRESSED THE GLARING VERSES THAT POSITIVELY CONTRADICT THE PAGAN TRINITARIAN DOGMA TO WIT -

[Mark 10:18].

[1Timothy 2:5].

[John 14:28].

[John 20:17].

[John 17:3].

[Mark 13:32]

[1st Peter 1:3].

[Acts 2:22]

[Luke 22:42]

[John 8:40].

[Luke 23.34].

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Guys, between ourselves as Christians, we should try to balance things off so we don't descend to unnecessary brawls on such sensitive subjects.

The topic of the thread is interesting; and subsequent posts have added flavour in many ways to the whole thing. However, I think there seems to be issues which are beginning to be stretched to extremes - and that is where problems begin to emerge.

@aletheia, while there are some good points in your recent post, please let me draw your attention to a few points which a quite questionable:

That is not quite true. Although we read in many passages of the NT that healings were almost instantenous, there are also cases were healings among believers took quite a while. One example is the case of Epaphroditus (Php. 2:25-30). The Philippians had heard that he had been ill, and this caused him some distress. The fact that he had been ill 'nigh unto death' tells us that his recovery was not instantenous, but gradual - and this shows that a few times, even when believers prayed for healing, it was not always immediate that they recovered. 'God had mercy on him', says Paul, and that is in context indicative that Epaphroditus was not instantenously healed. The same apostle Paul suffered infirmities, but nowhere do we read that he received instantenous healings for them (Galatians 4:13-14 and 2 Cor. 12:5 & 10); and some of his close associates (like Timothy) was frequently ill, but Paul recommended he took a little wine instead of water - which again was no indicative of instantenous healings (1 Tim. 5:23).

Just a small matter, though: while dropsy is today commonly pointing to diseases of the heart, it was not meant in the sense of heart failure in Luke 14. The difference is ~

[list](a) 'Dropsy would be called congestive heart failure today'; but ~[/list]

[list](b) Dropsy

In medicine, an unnatural collection of water in any part of the body, proceeding from a greater effersion of serum by the exhalant arteries, than the absorbents take up. It occurs most frequently in persons of lax habits, or in bodies debilitated by disease. The dropsy takes different names, according to the part affected; as ascites, or dropsy of the abdomen; hydrocephalus, or water in the head; anasarca, or a watery swelling over the whole body, etc'[/list]

Many enthusiasts of healings in the Bible very quickly point to dropsy as heart failure; but the Greek (hudrōpikos) in Luke 14:2 indicates the patient in a condition as if "looking watery" rather than as one having a heart failure. It is from this mix up that many televangelists make so much about heart diseases and cancer into that text and send some to their untimely deaths.

Nope, lol. A careful study of a simple case of fever shows the direct opposite, and we cannot maintain that it is an example in the list of diseases which were incurable at that time.

Fever has been described medically even before the common era of the Christian age. For example, a study of medical history shows the following:

[list]Case histories recorded by Hippocrates around 400 B.C. describe the clinical manifestations of scarlet fever and rheumatic fever, although the entities are not identified by name. Although the descriptions are not as detailed or complete as they would be today, they strongly suggest the existence of scarlet fever and rheumatic fever at that time. Hippocrates' references to these illnesses were presumably the first to be documented and/or discovered, as a thorough search of the worldwide medical literature revealed no prior descriptions.

~~ Quinn RW. Department of Preventive Medicine, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, Nashville, Tennessee 37212.  PMID: 1775859 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE][/list]

Not only that medical history shows a clinical description of many ailments and diseases before the AD age, but common cures were well known. The ancient Chinese used a mixture of common herbs, most notably Cinammon. Also, medical students who studied under Hypocrates were well familiar with cures by mixture of herbs, not only for fevers, but also for others like jaundice -

[list]The Hippocratic physicians were among the first who described jaundice (icterus). The Hippocratic Corpus has numerous appearances of the condition, where its etiology, description, prognosis, and treatment are provided. The connection made between the liver and jaundice was remarkable, bearing in mind that the Hippocratic physicians had not performed dissections and that their medical views were based on observation. The Hippocratic doctors described five kinds of jaundice. The etiology was, as in most cases of diseases mentioned in the Hippocratic Corpus, “humoral” imbalance. The diagnosis and prognosis were based on the color of the skin, the urine, the feces, and several other factors, such as the season of the year during which the disease first appeared or the coexisting diseases. The treatment, finally, consisted of herbal medications, baths, diet, and blood-letting, depending on the type of jaundice in question. Finally, an attempt is made to correlate modern diseases with the Hippocratic types of jaundice.

~~ find study source here.[/list]

The point is that most of these ailments were well known and clinically described before Christ was born; and in many ancient civilizations there were known cures for them - commonly by herbal mixtures. However, that does not take anything away from the cases of Biblical healings, which are miraculous; but it is not correct or fair to assert that the diseases which one could have listed from the NT were incurable at that time of history - that is indeed not true.

And this one:

Nope, not so true. As seen, fever is an example of an ailment that no one can argue that it is an 'incurable condition'. Second, we have observed the fact that even among believers in the NT, not all cases alluding to healings were instantenous; and third, some instances were recurring (as Paul made reference to "frequent illness/infirmities" in 1 Tim. 5:23). The reason I point these out is to show that we sometime fall into the error of making rules for spiritual matters where we ought not to, and then end up becoming dogmatically rigid in the causes we pursue. Conditions for Biblical healings do not have to be dressed up so rigidly with rules to say that they "would have to be" - that is missing the whole issue on the examples I have highlighted above.

Cheers.

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Ga:4:28: Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Ga:4:29: But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Ga:4:30: Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Ga:4:31: So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

When i see comments like these(from Enigma and aletheia) i cannot help but wonder if you're truly christians.

if you have ever laid your hand over a sick person and seen them recieve their healing you wouldnt call another man a "pathological liar" nor will you ask why some miracles are not instant.

thats why i put up those scriptures, you both are children of the flesh persecuting children of the spirit. the interestign thing is that it didnt just start now it has always been and will always be. but as the free woman won so also have we(children of the spirit).

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Aleeetheiiiaaa!

You can't use sense knowledge in spiritual things.

I do the word , cast out devils and heal the sick. There are instant miracles that have been wrought through me, and there had been cases that has instant improvement and got perfected over few hours or few days. So are you blaming the holyspirit for that? This only make one thing clear that you don't flow in the supernatural, because if you do , you would by experience know this things and you will be humbled by it. Everyone of us desire to raise the dead . I've prayed for couple of dead none rose yet , but I will keep working on my faith for such grace to abound . But I can't condemn others who haven't raised the dead as fake. I have not seen any one healed of stroke and walked perfeclty instantly even though there is instant dramatic and spectacular change , it takes them few hours or days to be able to run normally.

The healing of the noble man's son was not instant.

John 4:52

52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him.

Was this healing instant ? Be honest. Jesus will not deny it. Any person who flow in the power of God understands this.In the OT there were healings , some were instant some were not. The priest had a form of healing ministry , when a leaper comes they shut him in , wait for few days and see the improvement , and on and on till he is restored of his leprosy. When Jesus told those leapers to show themselves to the high priest. Because they will observe to know if he is healed.

Lev 13:37

   37 But if the scall be in his sight at a stay, and [that] there is black hair grown up therein; the scall is healed, he [is] clean:

and the priest shall pronounce him clean.

[/color]

If you say Jesus miracle didn't take more than few hours . It is simply insincerity. Time is time as long as the miracle takes place Glory to God.

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No you have not answered the questions; instead you evaded them with double-speak; that is why we say you are being evasive.

This is where you need to be clear. Jesus did the miracles using some of His power as God.

Here you are simply being duplicitous because I made clear before in post no 40 above that: What I'm getting at is that you are WRONG, and it is indeed heresy, to say that Jesus was just "a man who operated by faith".

So just admit you are a WoFer because it is widely known by informed Christians worldwide that Hagin and Kenyon are the fathers of WoF.

No these teachings are full of heresies and the same old lies of satan in Genesis e.g. that you are god. For example you are sooo brainwashed by it that in ignorance you claim heretically earlier that you, Joagbaje, are as holy as God Almighty!! Can you not see through that one claim that WoF teaching is leading you directly back to satan --- the same way satan persuaded Eve (and Adam) that they shall be as God?

RUN for your life from WoF and from the teachings of Kenyon and Hagin (who was a pathological liar!).

How do you know who has the infilling of the Holy Ghost or not. Oh, I forgot you are "god"! And don't come back with "by their fruit" . . . because we know very well the fruit of WoF doctrine.

Studying faith is good, if it is faith as taught in the Bible; studying "faith" as taught by WoF is dangerous - both spiritually and materially!

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Mr Aletheia . Point of correction, I am not evasive, I have answered the question twice. Jesus will always be God. But the miracles of Jesus were not done as God, but by the power of the spirit in the man Jesus. His question is not clear to me , if he tells me where he's going I will hit the nail on the head.

Now This your WOF matter, If you ask if I believe in Some teaching by kenneth Hagin, EW Kenyon. I believe in many of their teachings because they teach on faith and the new creation, Does that make me WOFa ? If it does , glory! This teachings contains deep truths and that is what every Christian need to hear.

Now you find some individuals in bondage of ignorance ,who dont have the the infilling of the holyghost attack those who have the spirit. I have seen some of these sites before , and I wonder " do we still have people as ignorant in this age?" You should get to study materials on faith yourself. If study on faith is what makes a man WOF in your definition Then I will be glad to say I am.

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@Joagbaje & mba emeka

Biblical divine healing versus other types of healing

There are basically five types of healing in the world today.

1. Biblical Divine Healing,

2. Natural Healing,

3. Medicinal/Medical Healing,

4. Psychological Healing, and

5. Paranormal/Demonic Healing.

Biblical Divine Healing

True Biblical Divine Healing is[b] immediate, lasting, verifiable and all the glory goes to Jesus Christ.[/b]

(a) Immediate

All the examples of Biblical Divine Healing in the New Testament were accomplished by the power of God instantaneously. They were not done by the person (with the exception of Jesus Christ Himself) but were done through the person by the Holy Spirit. God is the only One who can do a creative healing (hence why these false healers start stammering when you ask them why aren't amputees being healed today). All other healings are natural or lying wonders, but only God can create. Healings in the NT never took a long time. They were always accomplished the same day, and in most cases were instantaneous.

(b) Lasting

All Biblical Divine Healings were lasting. They lasted for the rest of the person's natural life. They did not wear off. The person that was healed did not have to come back for repeated treatments or healings.

(c) Verifiable

All Biblical Divine Healings were verifiable. The NT healings were obvious healings. The most obvious were recorded as proof. Nearly half the incidents of healings in the NT that are descriptively recorded are of the most obvious kind, completely verifiable, beyond question. The people who were healed were well known in the community, in fact they were known by their ailment. The NT incidents of obvious healings were used as proof, as a sign verifying who Jesus Christ was and the validity of the ministry and the authority of the Apostles.

A few examples will suffice

Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.

Matthew 8:3 Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cured of his leprosy.

Matthew 8:8, 13 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Due to space and time constraints, I will list some verses and the ailments cured.

Matthew 8:14-15 - fever

Matthew 9:21-22  - 12 years bleeding

Matthew 11:5  - blind, lame, leprosy, the deaf, the dead

Matthew 12:10 - a man with a shriveled hand

Matthew 15:30 - the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute

Matthew 21:14 - the blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them.

Mark 1:42 - leprosy

Mark 5:23 - dying daughter

Mark 10:52 - public figure known to be blind

Luke 7:7 - dead son

Luke 7:21 - diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, blind.

Luke 8:50 - daughter dead

Luke 13:10-13 - crippled for eighteen years

Luke 14:4 - dropsy (heart failure)

Luke 17:15 - 10 lepers

John 5:9-10 - an invalid for thirty-eight years

John 11:1 - Lazarus raised from the dead

Acts 3:16 - crippled from birth

Acts 8:7 - paralytics and cripples

Acts 9:40 - dead woman

Acts 14:9 - a man crippled in his feet, who was lame from birth and had never walked.

Acts 28:8 - fever and dysentery

If you would deign to study these scriptures, you will note the immediacy of all the healings. Furthermore the diseases listed were incurable at that time of history.

(d) All Glory to God

All the glory goes to God for Biblical Divine Healing because it is impossible for anything or anyone to effect Biblical Divine Healing except God Himself. Divine healing can occur at any time or any place. God can heal in response to the prayers of the righteous (James 5:16) in answer to the prayers of the elders in a local church (James 5:14) or simply because God wants to heal someone. I see no evidence in Scripture AT ALL of divine healing occurring as a sign to justify false teachers or false prophets. I believe it is possible for a person to receive divine healing anywhere. It is even remotely possible for God to heal someone for His own purposes at a meeting of a false teacher, but in that case it is also a test and the responsibility of that Christian to understand that the Lord did the healing and he is commanded to get away from false teachers as Jesus and the Apostles told us to do.

To definitively prove that a healing is a Biblical Divine Healing today. . .that healing would have to be

(1) of an incurable condition

(2) obvious

(3) verifiable

(4) a problem well known to many people

(5) immediate

(6) lasting and

(7) ascribed alone to the glory of God Who accomplished it by His omnipotent power alone.

If it does not meet ALL these criteria it should not be used to prove it is a type of Biblical Divine Healing.

As the LORD permits, I will post later concerning the other types of healing.

In conclusion. . .

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@aletheia

Amen (not being 'religious'; I just agree; so once again, Amen).

@ Joagbaje

I am genuinely and honestly sorry if/that I offended you. My problem is that it offends me to the very depth of my being to see anyone misled by and repeat WoF doctrine which goes contrary to the teachings of Christ Himself, contrary to the teachings of the apostles, contrary to the Bible (because it is twisted or contradicted by "revelation knowledge", contrary to "historic Christianity" over the ages. Secondly while Christians (focusing on Western Christianity as opposed to e.g. Eastern Orthodoxy etc) may disagree on many things e.g. tithing, baptism of children etc. in terms of seriousness of doctrine, these are minor things --- and do not lead to a parting of ways. When it comes to the person of the CHRIST, differences on His person and status ultimately tend to lead to a parting of ways --- the parting of ways is part of the original meaning of "heresy".

Now to the crucial point: in today's Western Christianity most of us, despite our differences, are agreed on the person and status of Christ. The principal group that differs from the rest of us are those who adhere to the WoF view of the person and status of Christ ---- i.e. that He was "just a man who operated by faith."  This is heresy to the rest of us in Western Christianity and we have no choice but to declare WoF adherents as heretics to us.

I would like to say I will not refer to you as a WoFer but I cannot honestly do it. The reason is very simple: although you may not have known it until now, you are always repeating WoF doctrine; you have also referred to people like E W Kenyon, Fred K C Price as people whose teachings you follow; well these are major WoF leaders; inasmuch as you repeat here their teachings you are a WoFer. Another reason why I cannot totally promise to stop is that I want to warn others in your shoes ---- to be aware of the sources of the doctrines that they believe i.e. from the WoF teachers and, in my view, ultimately from the deception of satan.

After having said all that, I want to return to a positive tone. Please pay plenty of attention to aletheia's post; study the Bible again and compare your understanding of kenosis to what aletheia explained. Finally, look up and study something called "the hypostatic union." (EDIT: I see, belatedly, that aletheia also referred to the Hypostatic Union)

God bless (genuinely meant and not just religious spout)

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@ bro joagbaje

wow! such greater light!

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@Enigma , Altheia and others.

I will really appreciate you to deal with issues directly than this WOF tagging which only you guys understand. It sounds very manipulative to me. I will gladly love to say yeah , I belong to WOF denomination and movement. I agree with their ideals etc. I dont know WOF movement , There are things KC price teach that i ddont agree with and others you mentioned. So If we are talking about prosperity, lets deal with prosperity according to Scriptures. If we are dealing with the deity of Jesus , lets deal with it according to scriptures. I never ask you which church or movement or association you belong, because I dont want to bias my mind about you. So stop trying to rope me with groups I know nothing about. If im wrong and you prove it scripturally , beauttiful, I will learn, but you should convince me by the word not This KunleOshob Style.

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You see, "Pastor" Agbaje, an informed Christian will give automatic straightforward answers to those questions without hesitation. An informed Christian will not go through the rigmarolle of your lengthy post. As can be expected, however, a person who subscribes to the WoF heresy and such similar will not be able to give direct answers to those questions (below again) and will be playing cat and mouse and deceiving himself.

One more chance for you, here are the questions again:

1. When Jesus was in Mary's womb, was He God or not?

2. When Jesus was born, was He God or not?

3. When Jesus was aged 12, was He God or not?

4. At age 30 just before His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

5. Immediately after His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

6. When He did all His miracles, was Jesus God or not?

 

ETA: after we resolve this issue of these questions, I will try and deal with some nonsenses and heresy in your last post above; see, WoF doctrine is full of heresy and because you are steeped in WoF doctrine you spout loads of heresy --- but the one redeeming thing is that you seem to honestly believe the heresy that you spout!

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Mr.Aletheia,

you are one nice guy i enjoy reading posts from here but these questions are filled with so much sentiments for the men of God. ok i'll answer the questions you asked me.

It is very important for you and me to understand that miracles still exist and are performed daily, even though we rarely see them. Because of the veiling power the fake ones have against the real ones. They have more money(s) to air miracle programs while the real ones barely have what to even take care of themselves.

That said, you must know that Miracles have their root in something, and that root is called the POWER of GOD - dunamos (a living force that can be passed unto another person).

As for Jesus Christ it was said that He had the Fulness of the Power of God in Him. And this fulness did not just come on him but after he had gone thru' a strong fasting for 40days.

This means that dunamos comes in quantity gradually until one will be FILLED. Ask me how, Do you recall when the woman with the issue of blood touched on Christ,you remember that he spoke immediately saying "I FELT HEALING POWER GOING OUT FROM ME"-Luke.8:46. Its just like filling a bottle with water, a little leakage will mean that the quantity will never be as it was. do you understand?

Recall, we are not Jesus Christ, we are the followers of Jesus Christ, and as such it means WE ARE CONSTANTLY LEARNING the ways of Jesus Christ and his mighty acts. We may not get it all at first but with time in his word and constant faith we will do it.

The disciples who witnessed Jesus in the flesh, who saw all the mighty deeds he performed still made their own mistakes/gaffes when cases similar to what Christ did was brought to them.

Matt 17:15-21

15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is epileptic, and suffereth grievously; for oft-times he falleth into the fire, and off-times into the water.

16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him . . .

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast it out?

20 And he saith unto them, Because of your little faith: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21(But this kind goeth not out save by prayer and fasting .)ASV

You see even the disciples could not even perform as expected even though they dined and wined with the Great Christ himself.

What is worth noting is that after the gaffes, Jesus christ came in and taught them how they ought to get result the next time it comes. These MOGs are not God, they are men with limitations who still suffer doubts too. hence they faulter or will i say perform little when faced with great challenges. Why? because they are still learning and growing in the grace of Jesus' might.

When i believe in the power of Christ i can heal all many of sickness but not immediately, i must first learn to grow in the grace.

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What I'm getting at is that you are WRONG, and it is indeed heresy, to say that Jesus was just "a man who operated by faith".

OK here are some other simple questions.

1. When Jesus was in Mary's womb, was He God or not?

2. When Jesus was born, was He God or not?

3. When Jesus was aged 12, was He God or not?

4. At age 30 just before His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

5. Immediately after His baptism, was Jesus God or not?

6. When He did all His miracles, was Jesus God or not?

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@Aletheia

You obviosly have been visiting some anti church websites which has not helped you. All the nonsense you pasted does not make a difference .The word of God stands for ever.Some of the stories are true and some false. EW Kenyon slept in the lord on his rocking chair, He went to all his friends day before, and told them "i will be going to be with the lord tommorow" At his old age ,he was still bouncing. Should we take your criticism of him or the testimony of the daughter staying with him and friends . I think the daughter is probably still alive. But it is not my place to speak for them.

There is a difference in believing in healing and having the gift of healing and healing by faith.Some of them believe in healing but that didnt make them healers. Others heal by faith, some recieve some dont. Even if all these unecessary things you pasted were true, It is not an issue.That doesnt mean they were living a false life, If they live false lives , you wont have access to the inforation that are true here. They dont need to hide it. Everybody knows Mrs Crouch of TBN has a challenge with I think cancer or so, They say these things openly. and even ask for prayer over the air waves sometimes when going for operation or so. What is false here is your own manipulation of information to suggest secrecy and deception and also try to negate the word of God in the life of the christian .

The just live by his own personal faith and not by another person's faith. Your idea of grouping people into the so called WOF denomination in highly manipulative, Deal with me by the word ,not by group. Faith is personal.

Habakkuk 2:4

but the just shall live by his faith.

The fact that a man has gift of healing does not automatically make him healthy. The gift is not for him but for others, I may have the "gift of commedy" and make others laugh, but that doesnt make me laugh or happy, The gift is for others but the healing minister must live by his personal faith to stay in health. I've seen healing ministers heal others of eye trouble yet they use glasses themsselves.IT IS A GIFT FOR OTHERS. He needs his faith to heal his own. or another person minister to him. It is not a hidden thing as you are trying to suggest. A man with gift may not even know the bible well not to talk of definition of faith. Because he has not developed his own faith he may have some challenges and die probably. " the just live by his faith" Faith is developed.

Romans 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Sicknesses comes by several reasons; Sin, Fear, Umbellief, Bad eating habits , Lack of care for the body. God didnt promise health if a man would be careless with his health.Jesus ensures his desciples rest from time to time

Mark 6:31

And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a while: for there were many coming and going, and they had no leisure so much as to eat. .

God instituted the sabbath for rest. Jack coe you mentioned had terrible bad habits ,but all these aside.

There is different between a man that suffers an attack of sickness by the devil and a man that created problem for himself. Healing ministry does not overrule "medicine" entirely. What is medicine by the way. food is medicine ,suppliment are medicine like the saying goes "all leaves are medicine all medicines are leaves" God created all things for our nourishment, There is ballance diets, if i dont take fruits I may be deficient of some vitamins, I have two options ; either I take fruits which is best solution or I take vitamin tablets which are extracts from fruit . Fruit itself is drug likewise food (you know better) . So we must understand the balance. But in all these God doesnt want us to put faith in them.

Luke 4:4

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Proverbs 4:20,22

My son, attend to my words; incline thine ear unto my sayings, For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

You cant use drugs for sicknesses caused by sin. You must be kidding!

James 5:14-15

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: [15[b]] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him[/b].

None of the men you quoted above stood against drugs, Well , you only pasted what you saw, I have heard Federic KC Price taught that if the prayer of faith has not saved the sick , the sick should take medicine. Even though i may not 100% agree with him on that for certain reasons under certain circumstances.

You dont put faith in medicine but in the power of God, If there is a "natural kind" of health challenge,and there is a reason to take medicine, You dont put your faith in the medicine, That is why we sanctify food by giving thanks,

You deal with it prayerfully first, because devils can hide behind so called natural sicknesses with curses, no treatment will solve the matter,

1995,I was staying with a pastor. An insect flew into my eye , I removed it, washed my eye, But I was having irritation and after several days my eye was turning red an slightly swollen. My pastor asked me if I had laid my hands on it (prayer) I said "No sir , its a minor thing" he said "lay hands on it" I obeyed , laid my hand on it and rebuked the whatever .I dont remember what i said. but instanly the feeling and pain disappeared and the redness left after few minutes. I learnt from that day not to take anything natural.

People function at different levels of truth. I once conquered malaria by faith but I take cold for granted as minor, until early last year, any time i feel cold sneezing , nassal blockade. i go for procold and co. and it worked each time some times I dont even finish the dosage,but i would be ok. I used easily catch that thing, Early last year, I had it again and I used my wonder drugs as usual, but it didnt go i finished tree packs! no result. I got grieved , I remeber the testimony of how I dealth with malaria. I said ," I am the seed of Abraham. Christ is my life, i command this symptoms of cold to dissapear now in the name of Jesus!" It left immediately till today no more symptoms no more drugs. If i ever experience it again in future (God forbid) ,I will do thesame thing . I will insist on my healing.I have discovered the secret . But I wont impose my faith on others or condemn them.

There is a higher life for us in Christ, We need to uderstand the extent of his power in our lives. There is a place for us where either natural sicknes or not we can function in divine health. And it is the teaching of this truth that will get us there.

Exodus 23:25

And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy[b] bread, and thy water[/b]; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Mark 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

When is Christ expecting this? now! The rapture will not take place until we manifest this truth in full comprehension of our oness with christ. He wont come until we have put his enemies ;sickness, death and poverty under our foot.

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Mark 16:18

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

So that is why faith must be taught , healing must be taught for people

Either a miracle takes 2 second 2minutes or 2 days to be perfected . it is still a miracle.

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