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To The Theists, Who Determines/control Destiny, Man Or God?

I heard Pastor Rod Parsley speaking on TBN, that destiny is determined by Man&not God.He spoke extensively on this with relevant quotes from the bible.I believe on one hand&dnt on the other.

God said to Jeremiah in chapter1vs5 of his that he knew him right from the womb.Jesus was qouted in john6vs38 that he came to do the will of God that sent him.Meaning christs destiny was determined/planned by God from A-Z. Also in deut 30 vs15&19, moses charged the israelites to choose their destinies.Also Joshua in 24vs15 did same. As christians should we be in charge or allow God to be the determiner?

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that is why we have free will. you have just exercised yours.

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it is man, that is what is called law of reciprocal action, karma, law of sowing and reaping.

whatever a man sows, so shall he reaps, in multiple.

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Destiny and Freewill can not exist in the Same Time and Space.

[b]Destiny = Man is a Pun, a victim in a Fight between God and Ex Son Lucife[/b]r. Destiny is a force We can't control, it decides who is Poor, Rich, Educated, Sick, 419er, Even the bible says "He had Chosen us and We didn't Choose him. You don't own your life, just like the lame man in the bible was, his disability  was destined for him so that Jesus would heal and the rest of the world would praise God. Repentance is rubbish because God already knows and choose those who would be going to heaven.

[b]Freewill= God is not all knowing. [/b]Man is responsible for his actions, God doesn't know who is going to heaven, only if you accept his New Best Son Jesus as lord and saviour, If You have the free will to Choose between God and Ex Son Lucifer then God can't be all knowing

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@mrmayor, the last part of ur post isnt clear enough. Which side do u belong as regards destiny determiner man or God

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the way i see it God determines but decided to share responsibility with man. God gave man some measure of responsibility and accountability. God cannot ask u for something he did not give you. if God gives you work he also gives you the ability and means to complete it. God single handedly wont take a soul to heaven. neither can man single handedly make heaven. but Man toghether with God can achieve that feat. your righteousness plus God's righteousness is the qualification. i like that scripture quoted by 5solas

John 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

i must point out an essential ingredient, factor in this passage and in other scriptures that is often overlooked.

"for without me ye can do nothing"

Christ is not asking you to do it alone

Christ is not asking that he himself is allowed by you to do it alone

Christ is asking that you and him do it together

"for without me ye can do nothing"

i.e/that means that "for with me you can do something"

you and christ can do something together

dont do it alone and don't abandon it for Christ

do something with Christ

this is what is meant when you say WALK WITH GOD and not for God

Gen 5:24 Enoch worked with God and he was not because God took him.

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Psalm127

1Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

2 It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he giveth his beloved sleep.

John 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

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Viaro wants to be sin free and not want to end up like solomon or judas, is it God that will help u to achieve this?

Viaro wants a PHD, u need to study hard and get money for material research will God come down to help achieve this? or its like 70% ur responsibility?

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There's a question that would remain when all has been said and done:

Ultimately, in whose hands is the destiny of anyone, their hands; or God's?

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I agree with u but to a large extent ur responsibilities are sure more than that of God. isn't it through?

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In the case of christ, God planned everything from A-Z. Dont let us compare mans destiny to that of christ. Christ can after man destined himself to death as a result of sin. Man choose death as his destiny while God planned life for him through christ.

Limit it to ur self who determines what will become of 5solas?

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God exercises His "sovereignty" - viaro has his "responsibilty". The responsibility of man cannot be misconstrued for the sovereignty of God.

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Who takes the largest share of responsibility man or God

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Okay, so let viaro make an honest attempt. The way I see it, based on your explanations, it will bring me back to agree largely with 5solas on the sovereignty of God and my responsibility: they both find a warm embrace in my life and experience - which would also agree with what you initially highlighted about both God and man being involved: "I said in the OP that on one hand its God&on the other its man" (post #22).

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I don't think so. . . unless there's something you may want to explain about how my responsibilities are more than that of God.

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Good point. But consider just these paradoxes for now;

1. Acts 2:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

The event was determined and foreknown, yet the men were inexcusable.

2.Matt. 26:24  

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had

not been born.

The event was determined and foreknown, yet the man (Judas) was inexcusable.

@All.

Men and brethren, what shall we say to these things? That God is unfair? The author of sin? God forbid!!!

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Guys lets go a little bit backwards

When Rod Parsley [/b]spoke about destiny, he said that every thing in life has been put in mans care. It now depends on how man handles it. He wants to be rich, to be successful, to be great in life, to die after living a righteous life and go to heaven etc are all what man desires and can be regarded as destiny(outcome, future) and man is the determiner of how these things turns out and that 'God will not determine ur destiny for u.

I brought it up to u guys if its true or not. Viaro wants to have a good outcome i.e get married, have kids, be successful, have a good later part like that of job and then find himself in the kingdom of God. Who determines this for viaro? viaro himself or God?

This is my definition of definition: fate,[b] circumstances, fortune, lot, luck

                                                   fate, karma, kismet. 2.  future. See fate.

I honestly need ur responses

Same applies to nuclearboy, sola,inesq,myself,kunle,noetic and others

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Man Determines his Destiny = God is not all Knowing after-all, he didn't know Lucifer would challenge him= he didn't know that his creatures (man) would reject him because man had Freewill to do as he pleases.

God Determines Man's Destiny= Man is not guilty of is actions, God determined in advance that you would disobey, kill, if 6 million Jews were destined to Die then someone (HITLER) was destined to kill them= No Sin.

Take Your Pick

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Ah there! That was the "implication" I was shying away from.

It seemed inevitable that at some point, the issue is going to be raised about the big picture in the minds of some. If 'destiny' renders us helpless so that whetever will happen will 'inevitably happen in the future' (ala toba's 'Que sera sera'), then some indeed might feel a licence to just do as they please - afterall, at what point can any helpless person change the inevitability of what is going to happen . . . especially if we throw in the aforesaid "bad luck" or "unpredictable events"?

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I totally agree with you.

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^^ fair points BUT I wonder - ALL things being predetermined by God would be a licence to whatever we feel like since "its all settled whether I'm for heaven or condemnation".

Seems so "settled" to me

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Happens to everyone - I might as well risk saying "everyone" (that is, believers in general). Perhaps, it is not so much a problem of letting Scripture speak for itself - it might be more about 'human factor' wanting to be the microphone of what we think Scripture is saying (ie., our interpretations often get in the way). But you made very good point: people have to think of what implications underlie what they call 'scripture'.

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Often, I have observed we are afraid to let scripture speak for itself because of what an admittance of what it says would amount to or we imagine it would amount to.

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I didn't mean to, very sorry.

But seriously , it might surprise so many of us to see that virtually all the reformers were of this opinion and I will give

necessary references as we go along. Things only started changing with the emergence of Arminianism which only just managed to escape

condemnation as a heresy at the synod of Dordt.

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^^ You scared me there, 5solas. When I saw "epistles to the Romans", I wondered how I'd missed those words.

But these were Martin Luther's thoughts, bro and whist we all have respect for him and the role he played in getting the Bible into private hands, he still remains just man like us all.

It does sound nice and valuable and all that but I doubt it can be taken as Scripture. I'd still say lets keep our options open.

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''All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment;

whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who

should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should

be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be

condemned''.

- Martin Luther (Preface to the epistle to the Romans)

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@Toba:

Have you ever considered that some get 20 opportunities to "meet" God whist some seemingly never get even the one chance? I remember my bro-in-law telling me that Herbert Ogunde gave his life on his death bed and me wondering if that wasn't unfair due to some things I heard he'd done earlier in life especially as some victims went without such a "meet" with God?

Jesus said "those who the Father GAVE to Him". Would that not suggest some were not given and may not have the opportunity just for that reason (that they were not given)?

Everything our muslim and atheist friends here write that I am aware of I return to later and think through even when I quarrel over it - its the beauty of Christianity that we are not meant to find excuse for God but to test EVERY Spirit. Spirits include "understandings" - If then, we rethink such, is it wrong that we consider that maybe we are as the Bible says "a Chosen People" and then examine ALL possible meanings of that phrase?

Like Viaro says above, the issue is "are these things set in stone?" which would mean this is all just a replay and we're as pre-programmed robots. And 5solas brings even more controversy when he rightly points out that BOTH God's Will/Sovereignity and man's Responsibility are taught by scripture.

Which brings me again to priorities - are there varying priorities for issues whereby though we may never be certain of which is ours and which God's, we have a situation where some things are "rigidly" set in stone and others loosely so. the rigid would belong to God 100% and the loose man to an extent we cannot quantify.

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Lol, I tend to see outcomes as applicable in general aspects of our lives - but 'destiny' should be used with caution in very specific cases (examples already highlighted by several posters). If we brush this aside, then what would we say about those Bible versions like the GNB that talk about "unpredictable events" in Eccl. 9:11?? Where's the certainty in what is "unpredictable"? Or, like other versions put it: "bad luck" - how do you reconcile that with certainty?

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God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are seemingly irreconcilable, however both are taught by the scriptures.

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If all events are not foreknown certainly, how could we tell which were certainly forknown and which were not?

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Which means man has no control over destiny save for God? Why then were we told to work out our own salvation? If God knows the outcomes,we should then go with 'Que sera sera' not so viaro?

Im confused here oo

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inevitably happen in the future and as such, regardless what anyone does they are just helpless.

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@All.

Is God's foreknowledge certain or does it depend on what we would do?

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IMHO, God leaves nothing to chance. There's no luck but grace with Him. Pls compare Ecc. 9:11 with Rom. 9:16, 1Sam.3-9, Lk 1:52-53,Jer9:23,10:23.

Was David's victory over Goliath of Himself or of God? About that of Gideon over the Midianites? The list is endless.

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The sovereignity of God is established over all things being the default/manufacturer.This brings all occurences under the umbrella of the 'will' of God. NB Gods will could be active or passive, meaning God gives free will&allows things to dictate it self while he may be involved or not.In jobs case, he allowed satan,with God not participating at all,while in other cases he participates actively.lamentations 3vs37. Now my point is that in mans destiny God is passive&man is active. Man determines the outcome&not God

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Guys, sorry I had a call and had to log out initially. The point is that this word "luck" is huge - and the ancillary "chance" is another world entirely. Think about this on very involved situations - at what level does God involve "luck" or "chance" at salvation issues of our lives?

Or, to put it more light-heartedly: there are people who bet in one way or another on the outcomes of the the ongoing world cup tournament. Living in the UK, I saw guys "betting" their luck by chance the goals between the UK and the USA. I wondered (sort of cheekily, forgive me): at what level is God involved at the bets or "luck" or "chances" or casting a lot or even the cards and toss of coins or the throwing of the dice.

I know that we sometimes read some verses and take them at face value. I'm just wondering if such verses as Prov. 16:33 and Eccl. 9:11 are applicable across board.

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time bound - priceless qualification and the misunderstanding of which is a source of a lot of confusion. And we all are confused

Being outside of time, I sincerely believe there's a lot of God's ways we can't know (for now)

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LoL you are correct, nuclearboy. That's the risk of an anthropocentric discussion of God. . . I was starting to make it sound like it's a human I am speaking of. Yes, he speaks it into existence, but where it is all different is that, I believe, the exact moment he speaks it, it IS. But it may take some time to be physically manifest to us who are time-bound. . .

So, when he speaks forth the ones who would be sons (or rather, are, sons), in the physical some of them may be far away from it but will be of the number. And some will look like they are of them, but they are not. My 2 cents.

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^^^ I like your Jacob/Esau analogy. But it brings something to mind - Which came first, God's Word on who would be the greater or the "manifestation/answer"? Thats what I call pre-destined.

Another way you could answer this is - at creation, Inesqor, which came first [1] "Let there be Light" OR [2] Light?

God SPEAKS things into existence, Brother, not looks ahead to see which will win.

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@Inesqor:

Your post then suggests that it is God that determines destiny. Brazil practices, trains etc and is the best but Serbia wins because as you have rightly said, God intervenes (rightly as you've said: more often than we think or know).

I remember Proverbs "the lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord" and the story of Pharaoh's sturbonness being attributed to God's intervention. How then does a man believe he is responsible for what obtains?

Conversely though, and this is (to me) confusing comes the idea that we have freewill. The way most intepret this is that man chooses to do wrong as the human "jesus" amongst us has just said, whist God chooses to do right. Yet God refuses to define Himself except as HIMSELF (not good or bad, fair or not, etc) Consider the idea that God foreordained some as sons etc which does not involve their will. Those not foreordained; can they become sons?

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Que sera sera is nonsense.

Man determines the outcome and not God.

After setting in motion all lifes machinery in Genesis, God has put man in charge of all things including free will, to act and take decisions that determines his future.

Is it God that told people like dawkins not to believe in him after giving them free will. A Drug baron was killed in 2008 and his fellow. He knew drug trafficking was unlawful and sin against God engaged in it till death. He simply choose his destiny and not God

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^^^ My point exactly. His foreknowledge is certain. However, my question/query arises on the issue of priorities - does everything have the same priority level or are some things left to us with just an overview of say like, a final result without details being set in stone?

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I believe theres luck in almost everything. Scientist believes in luck so do atheist. The atheist who never believe in God can tell his luck didnt come from God but by chance.How will u reconcile that with u saying God masks luck nuclearboy?

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@Inesqor:

Some disagreement comes to mind instantly.

Races are usually won by the fastest. They are the ones who key into your laws of operation on earth. But sometimes they do not win.

Battle is usually also to the strong - would you normally expect Israel to have won the 6 day war?

Favor usually is to the learned who knows the "principles" to receiving favor and being self-serving, would utilize such.

I remember walking into a storeroom 2 years back in which there was a 7+ foot Spitting Cobra. It just lay there not reacting and I had to remind myself (2ce) that I would be very silly to touch it since I was dazed that it didn't react. When (shaking like a leaf) I went back a few minutes later with 2 chaps weilding machetes, it changed into one of the most fearsome things I ever saw. That was not normal cos they're more aware than we are.

The reality of life shows often that very often, things happen "against" the grain and I suspect God does the "miracle" thing more often than we know. However He usually masks it and so we say luck.

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@Viaro: What I meant is that there is a definiteness, a certainty, for the systems. BUT to one who does not know, he thinks it's luck. See this:

Proverbs 16:33

"We may throw the dice, but the Lord determines how they fall"

That is absolute definiteness if you ask me! So, say I WANT a 6 when I throw the dice, but God had determined to allow a 6 as well (at that moment) because it would set in motion a particular string of events (something or the other happens as an upshot of my throwing), I think I am lucky, but I am not. I have simply keyed in to some system that I don't fully understand at the time.

I do not believe luck exists, and I am yet to find support for luck in the Bible.

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@viaro hi, i ought to greet first,long how body?

May be its the way i put,but i was implying samething that destiny is about future,end,outcome etc.

I gave biblical examples of God&man determining destiny.

now in our present life what is responsible for destiny man,God,luck or chance? The scope is widening to include ecclesiastes 9:11. In verse one&two of the chapter solomon is saying God determines destiny. When solomon ended badly can that be attributed to God?

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^^ Lol, but it seems that you're presenting a case for definiteness and certainties - that is the nature of  'systems' and 'laws'. The only 'systems' I can presently think of that is not defined as a certainty or 'definteness' is the system of randomness (or random systems and stochastic geometry).

However, when you even mention "luck" (whether it appertains to fortune or misfortune), the question is: how does anyone think about the definiteness or certainties of "luck" such as to be classed as a law or system? What would determine "luck" as following any set of laws or systems - be they spiritual, social or physical laws/systems?

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@nuclearboy: My understanding of "time and chance" a.k.a "luck and misfortune" is expressed as point 3 i.e. Systems and Laws in post #6 above.

I believe that just like Agricultural and Scientific Laws will work whether you key into them or not, there are laws in operation on earth: spiritual, social, physical laws, with relative tangibility or intangibility. See, for instance, the case of a prehistoric farmer who "mistakenly" plants in cognizance of the crop's natural cycle, nurtures it and fertilizes it and he gets a bountiful harvest. he is amazed and he thinks it's his luck, but in truth it's just his will in line with systems and laws that God had declared from the earth's foundation.

I believe these systems and laws are there, and they respect no one. And only God can bend them, but it won't be something that can be trivialized and expected to happen everytime: God is not a magician. e.g. I won't cast all my money into a lottery and pray for luck.

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Since I believed, the following has stuck in my mind and when I saw Inesqor's statement "I do not believe in lcuk", it came back

Eccl 9:11 -"I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong. Nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all"

I believe most of us have had experiences that made us feel there was something out there controlling issues to our favor and atimes disfavor (which many later found out to again be favor). We said "we were lucky". I have heard prophecies that came to pass even though it seemed like the person(s) involved fught against the fulfillment.

Hoe does one explain the above in terms of "luck" and "destiny"?

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Hello toba,

It's a bit difficult to follow you on this subject. It seems to me that on the one hand you agree with some posts; but on the other hand, you're questioning what you agree with. A few examples:

Anyways, I think we're pointing to the same thing: that destinies are about the future - which is what I meant by "outcomes".

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