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What Is The Supernatural?

Those who believe a supernatural realm exists have the following question to address;

1) How do we come to KNOW [/b]about it?

2) Does the supernatural interact with the natural? Does the supernatural [b]influence, control [/b]and [b]modify [/b]the natural? If it does, by what mechanism?

3) Can the natural, in turn [b]control, influence [/b]and [b]modify [/b]the supernatural realm?

4) How does one distinguish the [b]supernatural from the not-understood-yet-but-natural?

Can anyone provide a coherent definition of the supernatural and explain why such a realm should exist?

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@ mad_max

Sorry to call you dude. I did not notice you were female.

If you think that I am lying about the Igbos belief in reincation check out these links:

http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/life_style/article12/indexn3_html?pdate=130609&ptitle=Man+In+Traditional+Igbo+Thought&cpdate=170609

Also check out wekepedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igbo

Goggle "igba agu" or ask any Igbo person who knows his culture what "igba agu" means. Also it not only the Igbos, various tribes in Africa believe in reincarnation before they converted to Christianity or Islam.

They did not copy it from Buddhism.

Reincarnation is the bedrock of the ancient Egyptian religion.

They did not copy it from Buddhism.

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Dude, do your research. Hinduism is older than Buddhism. Hinduism believes in reincarnation and karma. Also, for your information, reincarnation and karma were already believed in India before Gautama Buddha was born.

The ancient Egyptians believed in reincation, they recorded their beliefs. They ex sisted before Buddhism.

Dude, the Igbo before Christianity believed in reincarnation. Up-till today, non-Christian or traditional Igbos still believe it. I am Igbo. Go and ask any Igbo person you know. In my village, when a child is born they will perform a ritual called igba agu from which they will tell who the child is, IE who has reincarnated as the child. They still do it today. This is not a claim. It is still practiced today by Igbo pagans. Tell me that they stole if from Buddhism.

You are weary of making false claims. If you have problem with the Grail Message or its author, sort it out. Don't come here and make false claims that he got he plagiarized Buddhism.

Also "reincarnation" is not a buddist term. It is an English word. Founders of Buddhism did not speak English.

Also goggle "reincarnation" and you will see that it has been in existence thosands of years before Buddhism.

I quote wekepedia:

[Quote]

Belief in reincarnation has ancient roots. This doctrine is a central tenet within the majority of Indian religious traditions, such as Hinduism (including Yoga, Vaishnavism, and Shaivism) and Jainism. The idea was also entertained by some ancient Greek philosophers. Many modern Neopagans also believe in reincarnation as do some New Age movements, along with followers of Spiritism, practitioners of certain African traditions, and students of esoteric philosophies such as Kabbalah, and Gnostic and Esoteric Christianity. The Buddhist concept of Rebirth although often referred to as reincarnation differs significantly from the Hindu-based traditions and New Age movements in that there is no unchanging "soul" (or eternal self) to reincarnate

[/Quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

The Greek philosophers, the Hindus, and the practitioners of certain African traditions as mentined above did not copy it from Buddhism.

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I think this short video clip will greatly contribute to any understanding of what is supernatural.

http://perceivingreality.com/

I've put in on a number of other threads.  I don't want anyone to think that I'm becoming obsessive-compulsive (we have enough of those on this forum already) but I think it is a really good exposition.

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Reincarnation and karma have been known for thousands of years, before the advent of Buddism. Do you have some proof of this, or am I supposed to just take your word for it? And since reincarnation and Karma are Buddhist terms, by what terms were these concepts known, by what people, 'thousands of years ago?

As for the similarities in religious concepts, that's a given. They have ideas in common, they also have ideas that set each apart and is unique only to them. I mentioned what set Buddism apart from Christianity and Islam, you mention what they had in common, as f that was the point and that changes the fact that each religion has core doctrinal differences. Even the same religion has chisms in ideas. You also continue to talk of Grail as if it were a religion,pointing out similarities between religions to #show# its ideas aren't borrowed.

Even if Buddhist ideas were flying around 'thousands of years ago', we are in the present, are we not? Grail wasn't written 'thousands of years ago, it was written in the 20th century, a time when each religion has well-defined religious and philosophical boundaries. There is no confusion. We know what ideas belong where. In the time since the amorphous 'thousands of years' ago, each religion is well-drawn. So Grail cannot have got reincarnation from 'thousands of years ago'. The author would have to be alive thousands of years ago to claim the attitudes and ideas of his times. We're in the present. I have no idea where you get the information on what the Ibo peoples believed in thousand of years ago, as there are no written records of ANY African peoples that date , much less thousand year old sociological documents. Historians know little about Africa's past. There is no way anyone can claim to know what a tribe thought thousands of years ago.

Grail was written in modern times, when the major religions are established, when everyone knew what belonged where. The themes and central ideas in his book has been covered by Buddhist texts hundreds of years old. This is something so obvious and so evident to anyone who's read extensively on Buddhist thought and philosophy, that I am amazed to be having this discussion at all. You still haven't told me exactly what

Buddhist religious and philosophical texts you've read. Please feel free to think what you like about where a modern book got its ideas and treatment on thought forms,past lives, and karma and reincarnation from,among other things. I'm weary arguing the very very obvious.

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The ramper book that you might be talking about is "Living with the Lama"

Everything that you wrote here and in the upper post is completely wrong.

First, reincarnation and karma are not trademark of Buddhism. These ideas(as you called them) have been known by various peoples for thousands of years before budism came into existence. The ancient Igbos believed in reincarnation and karma. Now tell me, did they get the idea from budism?

The ancient Egyptians, the ancient mayans, the Incas, and even some of the ancient Jews. Now I guess they all got it from budism.

Point of correction, reincarnation and karma are not mare ideas but reality almost in all religions of the world. These doctrines are the bedrock of most religions even if thy are not called reincation or karma; or even if they have slight variations. Did not the bible say that "you must reap what you sow." Now tell me is this not karma?

All religions of the world have basic ideas that are the the same, even a child knows this. But since you claimed its not so, I will give you examples:

(1) Monotheism --Both Christains, Jews and Muslim hold this view.

(2) Reward for goodness. (Strive to be good)- Almost all religions of the world teach this. Even ancient religions and paganism hold this view.

(3) Paradise/ heaven.- Almost all religions of the world teach this

(4) Hell/ or eternal damnation.-Christains, and Muslims

(5) Continuation of life after death. --Almost all religions of the world teach this. Even ancient religions and paganism hold this view.

I can go on and on and on. These ideas are the bedrock of all worlds major religions. So you are here to tell me that they all coppied it from each other. Tell me that the ancient Igbos copied there belief in reincation and karma from Buddhism.

The Grail message is a book not a religion. I maintain that it is wrong for you to say the the author of Grail message got his ideas from Buddhism. These ideas(as you called them) have been in existence in various forms in countless cultures as long as man has been on earth. Even some early Christains believed in reincarnation. Research on the Gnostic Christians. Actually it was during the council of Nicea(June 325 AD) that the Church fathers voted for the doctrine of reincarnation to be removed from Christianity. Please are you going to tell me that the Gnostic Christians got the idea from budism?

Please read the infor of this link, and tell me if the early Christians go their idea from Buddhism too.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen06.html

You asked what book I read on budism. I read Ramper when I was in Nigeria. Here in America I had a classmet, a Chinese who is a Buddhist. He did almost everything to convert me to Buddhism, He gave me books, He talked to me, He taught me how to meditate and I have visited their temple many times. I am still in touch with him, perhaps I will invite him to this forum. My wife's mother is half black American and half Indian. She is a Hindu, actually my wife was raised a Hindu but turned Christian at eighteen. See, I am very familiar with with eastern religions.

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Magic and Mystery in Tibet by Alexandra David-Neel. It's an old book though,and the woman's long dead. Died at the age of 101yrs. If you can't get it at bookstores,order from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Mystery-Madame-Alexandra-David-Neel/dp/0486226824

She's also the author of The Secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddisht Sects, a must-read.

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Tibetan-Buddhist-Sects/dp/0872860124/ref=pd_cp_b_1/177-6482759-2061046

I'm not advocating Buddhism, mind, but one should be acquainted with other religions;otherwise one really hasn't made a choice among them but is merely stuck from tradition or indoctrination or whatever.

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what's the name of the author or the book?

I read the entire lampa/third eye series when I was younger.

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I get what you mean. I particularly liked the part about the translation of 'foreign' deities into cultural counterparts that pre-existed the arrival of those religions. When a Yoruba animist says Esu, is he really referring to Christianity's Satan or Islam's Shaitan? Interesting question,man.

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I just noticed this.Not the same thing at all. Religions do have some ideas in common,but each also has ideas that are its trademark and unique only to that religion. Karma and reincarnation are Buddhist signatures. Abi they're in Christianity and Islam?

The Grail Message is a 20th century book. You're talking as if it's a religion. Its author presents his ideas but he makes no pretensions to creating a religion,and its devotee here claims Christianity. Are you saying The Grail Message is not a book,it's a religion? Otherwise why compare a book to established religions? If Grail's a religion what's its religion called?

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Read the book first before assuming she doesn't know what she's talking about.

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well, assuming she wasnt psychologically "prepped" for the actual monk's arrival beforehand.

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Tibet became her home,I think. What did France have to offer a lama? She says the creature became troublesome and she had to dissolve it. But it didn't go without a fight, as it took six good months for her to get rid of it. It was enjoying its stay in Tibet! She herself wonders at the fact that others could see it, and wonders if it wasn't autosuggestion; that her mind impressed the image on other minds and they saw what she saw. It's also possible the thing was physically manifested.That's the pleasure of reading the book; she's an advanced Tibetan Master, but she's also a scholar and is always rational.

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Very interesting.

Will need some chewing on.

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Actually you told me you read Lampa's books. I read one of his books a long time ago. He was grousing, in a darling sort of way, about the thousands who write him and don't include postage. He was adorable, but the book seemed to be about his cat. Are his books extensive philosophical treatises? Which books on Buddism and Hinduism have you read exactly? Lampa may have written books, but he isn't the founder or originator of the ideas on Buddism. His books are the equivalent, for Christians, of Adeboye or Jakes or Creeflo or Meyer Hagin's books; they're adherents of the religion, but they aren't its founders nor do they invent its philosophy. I may have been too young to understand his books though.

Which books did you read on Buddism?

Are those the major ideas in the Grail Message? Those are unimportant details. The major ideas are karma, reincarnation, thought forms, and other stuff. Are you implying I'm saying Grail copied and pasted from Buddism textbooks or what? His book can't be a mirror image of Buddist doctrines, can it? I've told you exactly what ideas the book copied and tweaked. And a note on an unimportant detail; Not all schools of thought on Buddism think alike; like any other religion they have doctrinal differences; There are Buddhist sects that do eat meat. Some Buddist sects believe in gods, others teach that life and existence itself is an illusion,a dream within a dream, and we create our gods and our afterlife experiences. Honestly, its a fascinating religion.

So Buddism says people reincarnate as people, animals and rocks, but Grail says people only reincarnate as people? How original. And the idea of reincarnation itself comes from where? Grail's author invented it? And the teachings on thoughts and the invisible universe; he originated those, abi? Oskar invented the ideas on rincarnation, karma, thought forms, and the world heard about those concepts for the first time when he published his book? Is that what you're saying? Those,among his other ideas, have been around for a very very long time. He merely modified them and added jara.

There's an interesting chapter in Magic and Mystery in Tibet where the author, a French scholar who brings a refreshing rationality to Tibetan Buddism, describes how she (she became a lama) created a being using just her thoughts. Yes, Lamas can do that. It took her several months. She stayed secluded and pictured a fat jolly monk in her mind until the creature appeared. And then she left seclusion and it followed her. Not only could she touch and feel its body,other people could see it. A servant bringing her tea asked if the monk with her would like some tea too. And people greeted him when they went out together. He came from her thoughts! She admits she couldn't control it, that it had a volition of its own, her creation. It would stop, look at where it was going, examine the distance,etc. Something very interesting happens. When she created him, she gave him full cheeks and a jolly face. But after a few months the face changed, became lean. She said his eyes grew mocking and malignant. Which gives me plenty of clues as to what happened there exactly. That's how advanced Tibetan Buddhists are in using thought forms. And Magic and Mystery in Tibet is an account of the woman's expericnes in Tibet in 1924!

Methinks you should stop wanting me to draw Buddist parallels with ecery single unimportant detail in Grail. Its major ideas are borrowed from various Buddhist philosophies, and 'Christianity' is modified to fit into that.

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I wish I could find a link to an interesting program with Chinua Achebe in it where he spoke about the process through with people were converted in igboland and how it affected their minds. Children were literally taught (brainwashed) into looking down on the traditions of their parents. It wasn't even done subtly.

Inferiority complex because Abrahamic religions require that it's adherents look down on all non adherents. First it's the Jews on the Gentiles (dogs) which gets inherited by the Christians and the Muslims to despise what isn't theirs. When they come into contact with other cultures a face off inevitable ensues. If the Christians blink first then the foreign cultures will just dismiss christianity as an oddity, but the if the foreign culture blinks first then it will succumb to the christian/muslim worldview in which it is considered inferior and evil.

Ambition because christianity and Islam came with imperialism. Converted Christians became the go betweens between the imperial powers and the native population. As such they gained from being involved in all the trade. In the new imperial system those who were equipped to progress within the system, ie. those who had the education of the imperial masters, became superior to the other natives. It made more sense if one was ambitious to convert. All this was true of islam too, but the european imperialism overtook the islamic one.

Self loathing was taught to them in schools. Afterall when you look down on your father you are inevitably looking down on yourself.

Superficiality because it was not so important that the religion is properly understood but rather that one just went through the motions. Examples of this superficiality is obvious from translation of words and ideas from christianity/islam to the native language. How did the ancient yoruba understand the Christian Satan? Is Esu really Satan? Esu had his place in Yoruba cosmology before christianity came. How did the way he was understood fit into christian cosmology? Is Allah really Eledumare? This can only happen if one's understanding of these deities is treated superficially.

There is more, but I am just painting in broadstrokes here.

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Still this does not prove that the author of the Grail message got his ideas from Buddhism. There are also ideas in the bible that is similar to some ideas in Buddhism and Islam. Now would you conclude that Christianity got their ideas from Buddhism.

I have told you that I have read allot about Buddhism and Hinduism and at the moment I am reading the Grail Message. Eventhough the both talk about reincarnation, their explanation of it is not the same. The Grail Message is not that similar to Buddhism. I will give you more examples:

1) Buddhism encourages meditation as essential for spiritual development, the Grail Message does not.

2) Buddhism encourages vegetarianism as essential for developing compassion, the Grail message does not.

3) Buddhism believes in Nirvana(the state dissolving ones personality and merging with the creator) , the Grail message does not.

If you can please list the similarities between the Grail message and Buddhism that justifies your accusation, I will appreciate it.

Thanks

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Come on. You can't just leave something tantalisingly half-said. Explain a bit more.

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Perhaps you should read the Buddism's holy books proper. Buddist ideas are thousands of years old. They cover everything from reincarnation to how our thoughts interact with the unseen universe. The Grail Message is a modern book and the ideas in it are already covered in Buddism, extensively, even if the autjhor plays with semantics and changes terms. I'm a Christian. There are Christians who believe every single word in the Bible is sacred, that God wrote it all himself via divine secretaries or something. But while the Bible's message is divine, it's a human and flawed document. If I have no trouble criticizing the holy book of my faith, I can certainly point out the striking similarities between Buddism and a book by a modern author. Why nwakwo should take exception to that, especially since he's not read any Buddist literature, is beyond me. Grail's ideas are extensively covered in the various Buddhist literature, and if he has a problem with that, that will have to remain his own affair.

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But why do we not take our African Traditional religion as seriously as the oyinbo ones, personally the claims of amadioha are as outlandish as the biblical claims of Jesus.

Just why is the black race always trying to imitate?

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This mention of divine guidance ties in with my question of what we understand by the term genius.  Often we say that certain people are geniuses but is that right.  Perhaps what we should be saying is that they have genius or they have access to genius.  The etymology for genius is as follows . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius

Me, I believe that information can be received and is often received from spiritual sources.  This is what I understand as genius.

earlier when I first joined Nairaland I got into a discussion in which I said that a christian cannot be mediocre at what he does.  That raised a lot of eyebrows.  I still believe that when one's spirit is awakened they exhibit abilities above and beyond what is physically capable.

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. . however as regards 'touch you' brilliance I think you should leave it to your wifey or girlfy to shew such brilliance. Me, I'm not interested in touching you anyhow not to mention brilliantly.

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The answer to this question is obvious as well as being simple and complex at the same time.

put these ingredients together: inferiority complex, Ambition, self-loathing, and superficiality - - - and you will get the soup that african religiousity is nourished on.

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Finally a thread with a touch me brilliance.

I think though that the quest for the supernatural will forever remain this way, unless of course there is a scientific method to prove it, it remains the thoughts and intuitions of men and will continue to vary.

I am thinking of raising a thread though to try and understand just why African religions are not accorded the same respect and awe that these foreign religions command. What do you think?

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The above is not always correct. Just because two people talks of the same concept doesn't mean that one of them got it from the other. All religions and sects in the world, at some point in there doctrine, have believes that are similar. This does not qualify the hastily assumption that they got it from each other.

If somebody writes about the sun in Nigerian and another writes about the sun in America. You don't conclude that one got his idea from the other; could also be that both wrote from their personal experience since both can see and experience the sun from their locations.

In school I always ague with colleagues who think that ancient Incas, Mayan, and the ancient Chinese stole their civilization from ancient Egypt, just because both cultures built pyramids. I know this is off topic but it is a similar thought pattan

Besides, I have read so many books by Tibetan lamas, I have read more than five books by T Lobsang Rampa; at the moment I am reading the Grail message, and the reincarnation and karma that Tibetan lamas talk about is not exactly what the Grail Message talks about.

Ie, some Buddhists and Hindus believe that a humanbeing can reincarnate as an animal. But, to the best of my knowledge, the Grail message teaches that humans can only reincarnate as humans. I can go on and on about the differences.

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Thanks for your kind words. I agree with you that the Truth is clear but the perception varies. The perception of the Truth is determined by each individuals spiritual maturity. Thus, it is differences in spiritual maturity that brings about differences in perception. As people mature they come closer and closer to the Truth until the Truth becomes an integral part of their being. At that point, perceptions or forms of the truth cease to exist. What exists is the Truth and not a perception of the Truth. When human beings attain a spiritual maturity that is enough to enter the kingdom of God, perception collapses for the lenses of perception cease to exist, that is, the spirit experiences with a spiritual body and its spiritual faculties and not lenses (several non- spiritual bodies) that previously encapsulated the spirit. At this point each spirit will have identical experiences. Stay blessed.

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Hi Pastor. Thanks for your kind words. Your last paragraph above is filled with wisdom and only those who have been blessed with experiencing with their spiritual faculties will understand the deep truth that you encapsulated in that last paragraph. Even on this nairaland in several posts, the Grail Message has been alleged to borrow from the bible, gnostic scriptures, buddhism, Hinduism and what ever religion or movement people can think off. This is not new for even when the author of the Grail Message was on earth, people made the similar allegations. He was accused of borrowing from theosophy, anthroposophy, christianity, Budhism, etc. I am not interested in responding to these allegations for any person who have examined the Grail Message and thinks that the author borrowed from other endeavours, and that their is nothing new in it should hold to that view which is a reflection of the persons own choice and consequent spiritual awareness. It is not my bussiness to change any persons view.  I was spritually led to the Grail Message even when I was unaware that  such a work exists on earth. Divine guidance will always lead any soul that seeks for the Truth to the Truth. Human participation is not required. Stay blessed.

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SUPERNATURAL:?

Then UFOS, BRAIN ACTIVITY, ATHEISM, and stuffs like that. Someone wants to know what the supernatural is all about. These things are quite and very natural. In case you do not believe in them UFOs exist. The average human beings uses 10percent of his brain, simply because he doesn't want to trouble himself(thinking). Therefore the brain activities recorded in the normal human per day is just less than ten percent. But that doesn't mean some don't make up to 60percent use. It's not easy to focus on anything. Levitation, telepathy, mind reading, distance healing, appearing in many places at the same time, astral projection and OBEs are all psychological developed abilities. Nothing supernatural about that. When I hear supernatural, it's simply things regarding the 'worlds' beyond. Like communicating with ghosts, advanced future fortelling, worshiping idols and things like that. They are supernatural simply because they deal with things we don't understand. The vast laws of nature set in the beginning by God. We hardly realise the power in 'belief'. Without belief, nothing is true and vice versa. Why most of these concepts are not common is simply because people don't want to believe them, because to them, it is 'abnormal.' So many wise people have said. 'What the mind can conceive, it can achieve'. Whatever we can imagine, has a way it will happen as long as you strongly believe it.

If anyone is still interested in these things, I can give them links to develop them. These are things that have ever been close to us but we cannot reach them. Wisdom is always waiting to embrace those who want it.

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Oh My God. I don't know whether to laugh or be distressed. That statement was OBVIOUSLY a general statement,and I made plain who it was intended for: OSKAR, author of the Grail Message. Why would you think that statement was referring to you,m_nwankwo? The thought never entered my mind; I was making a general statement. Good grief!   

As for proof his ideas were borrowed, they're in Buddist religious writing. You can begin with Magic and Mystery in Tibet before the formal religious and philosophical texts.

The statement wasn't intended for him and I'm frankly amazed it was interpreted that way. He happens to be one of my favourite people on NL. Even without having met him one can sense his worth and his basic goodness. So no,I haven't misjudged him. However, if you've never gone to the source of the ideas in The Grail Message, the book will have a powerful effect on you. The fact remains, its ideas are borrowed from Buddism.

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Mad_Max I think that you're being a bit harsh. I don't think M_Nwankwo has claimed or acted like he is the 'sole recipient of true knowledge'. Maybe on some other post that I'm fortunate never to have seen, but from what I know of him it seems you've misjudged him.

I don't think there is a source of Truth that is purer or more original than any other source. I, too, am blown away by the richness and detail of some buddhist ideologies. Like I said I'm a big fan of their iconography, yet that doesn't mean that it is the original source of Truth. Even if there are many similarities with Grail Message (I've got to read this book).

This ties in neatly with the possible definitions of natural vs supernatural I was discussing earlier. When you have 2 similar forms then possibly one is derived from the other across Time. In other words one is prior to the other in Time and the secondary follows after. This is a temporal causal link and would belong to the Natural. However there is another possibility that rather than one being a derivative of the other they are both derivative of a source that is not temporal but outside the realms of time. So the existence of one does not depend on the existence of the other but rather depends on their common source. The connection between them would therefore be Supernatural, not dependent on Temporal process.

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What do you mean by intelligence? How do you define it and how do you measure it?

What do you think of the idea that there are different types of intelligences? Have you heard of Emotional Intelligence?

Is it the same intelligence that an artist uses to paint that an accountant uses to fiddle his taxes?

What do you understand by the term genius?

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I think Madmax is confusing the soul with the brain.

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Max, lol. You're like pancakes. Your sarcasm is like syrup. You're dripping.

Mr. Nwankwo. I like people who make their own rules and who refuse to be dogmatically chaperoned, like you. I also think truth is clear and singular but we only perceive thru the thick lens of our faculties, i.e. it's subjective. I am not wont to comment on some things cuz they might prove touchy. A summary: you can prove something is, by proving it cannot but be, dig?

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Is this the evidence that the Grail Message got its materials from Buddhism? What are thought forms and how are they formed based on Budhhist doctrines and Grail Message? What does Buddhism explain reincarnation as and what is the description from the Grail Message? It is irrelevant to me what you think about the Grail Message. Afterall, it is your choice.

Truth is as clear as clarity. I am permitted to know the Truth and I make no apologies for that. What others think of what I am blessed to know is their bussiness, not mine. Thus I have no need to respond to your allegations above.

These are your views and you are entitled to them. Again what you think about my convictions, the Grail Message or its author is irrelevant to me. Just provide the evidence that the Grail Message obtained its materials from Buddhism. That is what is relevant to the discussion.

No, I have not read any of the Buddhist holy books. But with my spirit I know who Guatama Buddha is and what are his teachings. I know that he is a prophet of God who faithfully fufilled his mission. I know that he is a human spirit who attained spiritual illumination or enlightment. Gautama Budhha is however, not a son of God but a human spirit. I do not read sacred  books of world religions anymore for I have no need to. If I seriously need an information about any event or process, I look upwards  to God in prayers and what transpired will be reproduced for me in vivid pictures. Sacred books can only point the way to spiritual knowlege but the way itself is not the spiritual knowlege. Spiritual knowlege can only be gained through experiences with spiritual faculties. Individauls who study sacred texts of world religions can at best be religious scholars but not spiritully knowing ones. To be a spiritually knowing one requires an activation of the spiritual faculties by the power of God. For a spiritually knowing one, the past, the present and the future can be surveyed because in reality Time stands still. Thus what happened a trillion earth years is still there, what is happening today is still there and what will happen in a trillion earth years from today has already happened and can be reproduced even now. The grace to open ones spiritual faculties and dig out from Time records of the so called past, present and future is open to all human beings. Best wishes.

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Not Tibetan Buddhism- Just Buddism. It's an odd question to be asking. Given that The Grail message talks about reincarnation and karma and thought-forms,etc ,all Buddhist doctines, where oh where did he get his material from?  Oskar must have time-travelled and been born before Buddha,and orignated those concepts himself.

You've applied his teachings to your life for two decades and they work.Of course it does; Buddism is very hands on, and its adepts are full of dangerous, arcane knowledge. There's much to be learned from it. It doesn't dislodge my Christian faith in any way, but the Buddist scripture and philosophy is fascinating. The Grail Message is a bucket of water compared to the ocean of Buddist thought, and if I were you, since you're inclined in that direction, Buddism is the way to go, not a pastiche of Buddism smeared with 'Christianity'.

You've applied his teachings. You've applied his brand of Buddism and seen the light. So every single thing in his book must be 'the truth'.

Hah!

The truth is the most elusive thing on earth, man. There are no absolute truths, just subjective versions of it, and they differ man to man. It'smazingly common self-deception to claim sole recipience of 'truth',to believe yourself the repository of 'true' knowledge, to think you have found 'the way', to regard others with pity because they don't know what you know, they don't get it, they think they do but they're merely wandering in the dark. The way and the truth has been revealed to you.

A disease  common to man and one from which Oskar certainly suffered. Yes, I know you've imbued him with infallibility, but he's just a man and The Grail Message's just a book, and neither is infallible, hower much you'd like to think so. The Grail Message would reconcile Buddism with Christianity and in so doing, has twisted the latter beyond recognition.  It only has pretensions to Christianity if it rejects what Christ himself said. But I forget, The Grail Message is a higher authority than the Bible. Its author, who cites no references or sources other than himself, knows more about Christ and his expressly stated purpose than Christ himself.

Have you read the Buddist Holy books? Unlikely,or you wouldn't be asking how I knew Grail was a pastiche of Buddist religious thought and 'Christianity'. Read Buddist holy books and religious philosophy,and then come and tell me which ideas in the The Grail Message are original: Karma and reincarnation perhaps?

You've read the Tibetan Bookof the Dead? You lucky thing, I've only been getting snippets, and fascinating they are too. Buddism,like every other religion, has sects and schools of thought that disagree. Some accept the Bardo as a real place, a region through wohc spirits sojourn beofre they get to 'the Judge of the Dead'.Other schools deny the existence of wsuch a region. You must read Magic and Mystery in Tibet. You'll love it.

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Max. I was talking about intellectual prowess earlier and not time being cyclic. Time indeed is one elastic stuff. So intangible and so 'there'. The way I see it, human intellect is normally distributed (I mean IQ ranges thru a normal curve) in every generation. This means for every age a fairly constant percentage will be geniuses and one genius from one age being absolutely the equal of another genius from another age.

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There was a guy in the 60s called Timothy Leary who wrote a commentary on the Bardo Thodol and applied it to the use of LSD.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/lsd02.html

[img]http://[/img]

http://www.healerhere.com/Tantric%20buddha.jpg

[img]http://

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http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.realization.org/art/tantra_path_of_ecstasy_detail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.realization.org/page/topics/tantra.htm&usg=__FcrV_PkgLeNpxDg-SCCm7ijgbKM=&h=251&w=250&sz=10&hl=en&start=11&sig2=7PEQyMty37y4sBgpdDmoTA&um=1&tbnid=bHsvPolVepGxgM:&tbnh=111&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtantra%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=mJ5QSouOLte2jAfBrtjIBQ

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2150/1675547854_6cb5bcd467.jpg?v=0

http://www.kheper.net/topics/Tantra/zg79.jpg

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I would be interested to know this too. I still haven't read the Grail Message book, but I know a tiny little bit about Tibetan buddhism.

I think that if you looked at any religion deep enough you'll be inclined to the realisation that they all have soo much in common at their core. I'm talking about those religions that have an experiential basis.

I remember reading Bardo Thodol many years ago. It's also called the Tibetan book or the Dead. It was fascinating. Tibetan religion is a mix of the old shamanic beliefs indigenous to Tibet and Buddhism, and plenty plenty of Tantric ideology (Tantra is came to them from india and it sees the world as the product of the interation between two procreative forces, one male and the other female). They practice possession trance and other shamanic techniques as well as the Buddhist quest for liberation. Their iconography is also something quite special. But then I've always loved Tantric iconography. My uncle came to my home once and was spooked because he thought that I'd turned to worshipping Hindu dieties. I have many Siva-Shakti yoni-lingam images.

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Can you furnsih evidence for the assertions you made above, ie, show that "everything in the book ( Grail Message) is , of course from Buddhist religious thought", and that Oskar Ernst Bernhardt got the material for writing the Grail Message from Tibetan Buddhism. Thanks

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Here are a few examples of some cosmologies that regard Time as a cyclical phenomenon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga

This was the case in scandinavia too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarök

That I'm aware of, the first great eschatological religion that saw time coming to a great culmination after which the world would forever cease to exist is Zoroastrianism. They see history as a great battle between Good and Evil which will eventually end with the destruction of evil after which history will come to a close. Zoroastrianism was the official religion of the Persian empire.

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It is not just the intellect though but Process that is both linear and cyclical. By Process I mean each and every process in existence. Wherever there is change, wherever a situation evolves from one state to another. In other words the entirety of Temporal reality. Wherever Time is found to exist.

There is a big humongous assumption in modern thought that that Process is linear. It is reflected in science and the way scientists think (I remember Huxley saying that a paradigm shift in science is not likely to occur to which I responded with silence cos I didn't think going into it would serve the thread that we were on, but actually I can see a 1000 and one ways that science can undergo a paradigm shift), It is also reflected in the way certain religionists think.

The entire idea of history as a linear phenomenon starting with a beginning in the distant past and building up cumulatively to an Apocalyptic Last Days belongs to this way of thinking. There are other traditions that see history as a cyclical phenomenon and shape their beliefs accordingly.

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On the face off between intellect being linear or cyclic, Lemme give an example: a chess grandmaster from 1762 will hold his own with any contemporary one. This is cuz chess is simple enough for only your intellect to show and it's complex enough for your intellect to shine through. I hope the distinction is noted. Even then the advantage of cumulative knowledge isn't removed. It is only minimised. I support the cyclic notion apparently.

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On the face off between intellect being linear or cyclic, Lemme give an example: a chess grandmaster from 1762 will hold his own with any contemporary one. This is cuz chess is simple enough for only your intellect to show and it's complex enough for your intellect to shine through. I hope the distinction is noted. Even then the advantage of cumulative knowledge isn't removed. It is only minimised. I support the cyclic notion apparently.

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I've been following this thread awhile. Haven't posted cuz I don't wanna get addicted to coming here and cuz d trio of Max, Pilgrim & pastor have been more than enough. Plus I generally like to listen more than talk. Muslims believe in Jinns who like humans will face judgement. They also have free will but God have them way more power than humans. Of course this is a mere point of view and not subject to empirical justification. More in a bit

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Alien abduction/ufo sightings being interpreted as extraterrestrial only really started in America when the Space Race began. The idea of interplanetary travel is what fuelled this.

However that does not mean that the phenomena didn't exist previously. They were probably just interpreted differently because the concept of interplanetary travel hadn't gained currency.

An interpretation that I find more likely is that any other intelligent species that we might encounter might well belong to Earth and have been here for a long time. They don't have to be extra terrestrial.

Most cultures in the world have tales of other folk whether it is of Leprechauns, Elfs or whatever. Iwin in yoruba etc.

We know for a fact that there was another intelligent species of humans in europe called the Neanderthals. They died out. But if there are any other intelligent species around they could also be terrestrial and have their own technology that is quite different from our own. Including technology to disappear from our perception.

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I've got another possible way of distinguishing the Natural from the Supernatural.

Natural would refer to events that have their cause in a prior event. For example, I'm hale and hearty naturally because I eat amala and efo stew. My good diet has led to my good health. The chain of causality is linear extending from the past through to the future.

Supernatural would then refer to events that do not necessarily have their cause in a prior event. If it can be demonstrated that the cause of an event does not lie in a prior event then we have proof of a supernatural event.

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qft

I agree with you 100 per cent.

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So sorry! I've been excruciatingly busy.

Am I insinuating the sun goes down everyday and the moon comes up a spell? Naw. No insinuations.It's a self-evident fact.

Are people any different from those in the past? No. Whatever their profession now, scientist, archeologist, chemist, thief, librarian,our brains are no different from those in eras past, and we're not in any way smarter than they merely because they lived in 200AD and you live in 2009 AD.There's a common tendency to think each civilization is 'better' than those past, that progress itself progresses like an arrow, in a straight line. It does no such thing. Each era is self-contained in its progress, and each has remarkable acheivements in diverse fields of knowledge. Scientists might even have it easy now. They innovtae, but they also build and improve upon the work of genuises past. Scientists who didn't have as much as they do now or know as much as has been discovered cummulatively, but who blazed trails and opened fields to new knowledge.

Look at Islam and Arabian scientists, for instance. The greatest thinker of the 11th century (or was it the 13 th?) was a Muslim Arab. The greatest thinker in the world! Centuries before that they led the field in Astronomy and other sciences, and their contributions to mathematics is incalculable. You wouldn't have this numeral without them (0). I think they gave us numbers and values: 1,2,3,4,5etc. The only discipline they lagged behind was in biology. You wouldn't look at them now and believe that, would you? Would you say their progress has been linear? No. Like every era it's been contained within itself, and the present is in no way superior to the past in terms of "progress'.

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You are so not awed and astonished.

The supernatural turned to pyramids. What can one say?

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