«Home

What Is Wrong With Reason ?

THOMAS JEFFERSON oce said: "Question with boldness even the existence of a god;because if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than that of blindfolded fear".

Does anyone see senses in the above quote?

Avatar
Newbie
34 answers

And how does this have anything to do with atheistic beliefs?

0
Avatar
Newbie

PROOF THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST.

Well, we haven't seen,heard,felt or tasted him/her/it. We haven't witnessed his effect/force/works

if he indeed is there,then he's a pretty shy guy.

(for those of you who'll claim to have experienced god,i have news for you - i saw/experienced aliens fly into my room last night. Prove me wrong.)

0
Avatar
Newbie

I think you erred here. To orbit the sun means that it is within the gravitational domain of the sun, so we will need to be looking for it only within the solar system, rather than elsewhere in the universe. However, if it is actually orbiting the sun, but is outside of the solar system, then it is likely that the sun and some other massive star (or object) form a binary pair such that their center of gravity is the axis of revolution of the bear. In that case, the bear could be way way way out there in the universe, which will make the search of it even more onerous.

In fact, we do not have to go out into the universe to show that such a prove is not tenable. Let me re-phrase it slight and change the domain and see what we get;

1) Prove that there is NO disappearing and re-appearing green bear that inhabits your home.

This is nearly equivalent to the flying bear circling the sun, only that this time this bear disappears and re-appears. Amongst other things, you will have to show that you have looked in every little nook and cranny at exactly the SAME time to rule out the existence of such a bear. If you look sequentially at location A, then location B, then C, etc, etc, it could be argued that while you were looking at location C, the bear might have gone over to A, and that is why you could not find it at C.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I get your point, I think.  It is one thing to prove the possibility of something and quite another thing to prove the actuality of it.  But I think that the difficulty with proving actualities lies in the scope that we're considering.  Is there a flying green bear orbiting the sun somewhere in the universe.  Well the scope is just too large to cover.  But if you limited it to within this solar system, then I believe that a painstaking procedure would be able to establish the fact. 

. . . BUT huxley, you need to save that 'NL is a learning platform' jive for someone who knows you less.  Scoring cheap points against religion is your stock in trade.  Even your comment ' You guys may be seeing it as a platform to win/lose debates' is itself a cheap shot.  Who do you mean by 'you guys'?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining.  It's part of what I find endearing about you.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I agree with some of these but alas disagree with others as well.  As per proving negative,  it all depends on how the proposition is constructed.  Take the following examples;

1)  Prove that there is NO flying green bear orbiting the sun at 1000 miles/hour.

2)  Prove that 3 is NOT an even number.

Which of these is accepted formally in mathematical and philosophical logic as admitting to logical proof?  And why?  (In fact, it is even more complicated than this, but I shall leave that out of the discussion for now, until it is broached by someone)

As to Amnesty, my view is than NL is a learning platform for people to sharpen their views and ideas.  You guys may be seeing it as a platform to win/lose debates.  I see it as a place to share information with the hope of getting closer to the true nature of reality.  So if he hasn't quite firmed up his ideas, you can be sure that pretty soon he will.  At least he is not delusional as most of his opposition.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I'l cant prove wat doesnt exist.

But i can prove dat d bible is a fairy tale.

If in doubt, all u believers out there should indulge me in an Exhibition 2 prove dat d bible is a story book.

@ davidlyn

i wil throw you in fish infested water, have a fish swallow you & 3 days later. I & d other nairalander will await your arrival.

@ all d other believer

collect a staff from your God and we will go to d red sea & watch you part it. Or better still we can go to a moutain in my village, have you stuck it with ur staff so dat water will come out.

I will be glad to take you anywhere in d world to watch you fly into d heavens like jesus & elijah.

It wud also intrest me to see how d ladies among you will get pregnant without sperm.

Anytime you are ready for this exhibition just let me know.

0
Avatar
Newbie

well WHERE is the truth then? To know a myth must be because you've seen the truth somewhere else right? Show us pls.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I am not here to debate my own alternative I am only here to let you guys know that your so called " only truth" is a myth.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I think we already decided to agree the bible was unreliable.

Now what is YOUR own alternative to how animals appeared on earth?

0
Avatar
Newbie

The bible says that in the beginning god created all animals and humans as vegetarians why should we believe that? Animal and human dentation disproves that.

0
Avatar
Newbie

what then do you fools know besides whinning about the bible? Forget what the bible said . . . you already said it is absurd and a fairy tale . . . pls SHOW US WHY we shld disbelieve the creation story.

If you think the creation story is wrong THEN much more than just asking us to PROVE the creation, you blowhards and illogical minds shld do us the favour of showing us AN ALTERNATIVE to the creation narration.

You cant come here berating the bible and then saying "i dont know" to EVERY SINGLE QUESTION we ask.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Can we prove a negative?  

For instance can it be proven mathematically that apart from the number 2 there are absolutely NO prime numbers that are even numbers.  I believe that the mathematical proof of this exists.  

It can also be proven that one cannot quench thirst by pouring beer down one's earhole.

So I would conclude that negative statements can be proven.  

So can it be proven that there is absolutely NO god in existence?  Theoretically yes.  So therefore anyone who feels they are bad-Bottom enough to make such a claim needs to start working on their proofs.  Such a proof would have to embrace a concept about all the possibilities of Being/existence and then demonstrate that No God can viably be found in any of the possibilities.  

The only intellectually honest position that someone who hasn't experienced God can take is that they do not know.  That is called Agnosticism.  

What I love most about this thread is Amnesty claiming to know who is allowed to be a humanist and who isn't.  Imagine if it was someone like Davidylan saying that someone who does such and such cannot be a christian.  Imagine how the hordes of Atheists would descend as indeed they have done in other threads.  

I notice that none of the other atheists have come to support Mr. amnesty.  Poor dude has been left out to hang.  . . . and for once I find myself relishing Pilgrim's mauling of another Nairaland.  This is probably why I like Nairaland so much, it never runs out of people ready to make such dumb comments.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I do not know that and I never claim to have that knowledge. If only the writers of your bible know that the earth is 21% oxygen they wouldn't have written most of the nonsense they wrote down.

0
Avatar
Newbie

answer our own questions first dude . . . always avoiding facing your own illogicality while bleating about jonah and his fish.

Kindly explain to me how the earth arrived at exactly 21% for oxygen tension. thank you.

0
Avatar
Newbie

How does this science you know help make the case for your god that says evil spirit cause disease? Is it not because of the science and biology of animals and how their digestive system works that we that Jonah couldn't have survived inside a fish for 3 days? Thanks to science and what it has explained to us we know that the biblical claim that your god first created all humans and animals as vegetarians is false. Thanks to science we know that the sun does not move from place to place as your bible says. Thanks to science we also know that evil spirits do not cause diseases and that striped sticks can not produce striped offsprings when breeding animals. Do the writers of the bible know anything about unicellular organisms and how the lung functions?

0
Avatar
Newbie

Google d book

AGE OF REASON - THOMAS PAINE.

Reason is greater than belief.

0
Avatar
Newbie

There is nothing wrong with reason until you think what you reason out is the absolute truth.

0
Avatar
Newbie

It never ceases to amaze me either . . . i hate to use myself as an example but i'm a christian who initially got carried away when i first started research . . . until i realised that rather than debunk christianity . . . science itself is a powerful tool to convince the unbeliever that our world JUST HAS TO HAVE BEEN THE RESULT OF DIVINE INTELLIGENCE.

the cell is the smallest unit of the human body, but the intricate mechanisms that control how a tiny cell behaves relative to the entire human system is beyond amazing. No one can convince me that evolution and chance made that up.

for instance . . . there are 2 types of cells in the lungs, when one set gets destroyed . . . the other set automatically gets prompted to convert itself into a version of the lost cell types. If this never occured, many of us exposed to serious air pollution would be needing lung transplants as early as 50yrs of age.

I just shake my head when i see all these scientifically illiterate folks come here bragging about "science". What about science do you really know?

0
Avatar
Newbie

I am tempted to think that their unbelief is a function of angst at the system, hopelessness and rejection from society. The annoying part is how they tend to hide it under the cloak of science.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I think the latter was correct. Many of these folks dont really understand science at all, they simply use it as a cloak for their unbelief.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Please indulge me again. I think you're operating on an unhealthy premise. First, you recognize that science does not answer all the questions of our real world, no? If that is correct, on what basis would you justify using "science" to prove the validity or otherwise of the supernatural or the spiritual? As has been observed, people making statements the way you do only lead others to the opinion that you don't have a good grasp of "science". Perhaps what you're tending towards is not science per se, but a very queer form of empiricism which has been the harbinger of such idealism as you espouse.

0
Avatar
Newbie

I dont know if you've ever been a scientist but if you loudly proclaim that God doesnt exist, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove it. you cant come accusing me of believing in a fairy and then expecting that i shld go prove the existence of the fairy to you. Its not done.

As for those who claim that proving a negative is wrong . . . i assure you that you dont understand science at all . . . its not only about proving a positive.

your analogy is flatly wrong, we didnt claim that you must believe in God BY FORCE . . . no one dragged you here to debate the existence of Christ. YOU came here of your own volition to rubbish christian claims . . . it is up to you to prove your claim.

YOU have claimed that the design theory of creation is wrong . . . well have YOU proven that your own chance theory is correct? Or is the burden of proof ALWAYS on someone else? I see that as delusional hypocrisy.

you are justified in refusing to believe . . . that is your business. You are not being forced to believe.

0
Avatar
Newbie

My friend, it may please you to know that in any argument, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

If a person claims to have invented an antigravity device, it is not incumbent on others to prove that no such thing exists. The believer must make a case. Everyone else is justified in refusing to believe untill evidence is produced and substantiated.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Christian scientists are not obligated to "scientifically demonstrate their faith" just the same way atheist scientists have consistently FAILED to demonstrate the basic premise of their own "faith" i.e. that God doesnt exist.

You argued earlier that faith is divorced from occupation THEN go right ahead to accuse christian scientists of being seduced by "irrational religion"?

I think many of you simply post without a clear understanding of what it is you wish to pass across.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Its that last quote that makes me jump into this thread, the notion that a humanist cannot be religious, though, let me first attend to the dichotomy raised between religion and reason.

It is a fallacy that religion and science cannot co-exist, and anyone who knows their history will know that science came out of religion, at least in the Christian West. Chemistry, for instance came out of Alchemy which holds religion at its core, and physics came out of the application of reason to the idea that God done it. In fact, when Christ said he will be sending you the Holy Spirit, would one not consider that he was sending one the ability to reason?

On that note, going back to the idea that a humanist cannot be a religious person. Please consider first that humanism did not always mean one is an atheist, it pure meant one had concern for one's fellow humans, and I would assert that Christ, Buddha, and Mohammed, to name but a few exemplified this love of the humankind, in general. In my mind, religion that does not hold that human being at its core can be defined as devil worship, I would suggest.

The issue today is what I would call blind faith. Many will claim that Jesus is Lord, who will save their souls, but ask them how this is meant to be and they haven't got a clue; they do what the devil is said to do, "believe", which they hold as the greatest demand of them from their God while forgetting the greatest humanist tenet, "love your neighbour as you love yourself"!

I guess the humanist today has taken hold of what used to be the preserve of the religio.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Well my reasoning tells me that there is no way that Jefferson could have known of Nigeria as it didn't exist in his life time. Therefore I don't see how he could make a point of science being better than religion for us in nigeria.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Thomas Jefferson said it. Most people follow it and now am inviting you to come let us apply reason together instead of relying of blidfolded faith which is the substance of thing hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

0
Avatar
Newbie

You are getting it wrong in the first place. Not all atheists apply reason and science. Infact there are thousands of atheists who don't subscribe to rationalism and science. Maybe you do not know that there are people who are neither atheists nor religious yet they reason and accept science as a tool to understanding our world and profering solutions to our problems.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Most People argue that : "there are many scientists who believe in god. If many of the world's most intelligent people are theists, then belief in god must be sensible".

I wish to state here that is just a fallacy of appeal to authority, which atheists could equally do as well, or better, Academics, as a group, are much less religious than the general population.

Though it is easy to find scientists who believe, none of them can scientifically demonstrate their faith. Beleif is usually a cultural or personal matter separate from occupation and no one, not even a scientist is immune from the irrational seductions of religion.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Fellow Nairalanders, this is a response to PILGRIM.1 and many others who think they know Humanism or who know they know nothing about Humanism.

Even though many people, the world over, follow a Humanist philosophy, they may not have heard about Humanism. Some who have heard about it, have a not so clear understanding of what Humanism realy is. I think that is one of the reasons why many religious persons claim to be Humanists today.

My friends, if you care to know, Humanism is a fairly new name for a very old philosophy which has as its basic princples-- skepticism of supernatural claims and an emphasis on living a fulfilling and ethical life  without religion. Humanism is the study of what it means to be a good human being. It is a way of living, thinking and acting that allows every individual to actualize his or her highest aspirations and successfully achieve a happy and fulfilling life.

Humanists,  therefore, beieve that we can live good lives without religious or superstitious beliefs, that we can only have one life and we should make the best of it, creating meaning and purpose for ourselves and making sense of the world using  reason, experience and shared human values.

True Humanists are AGNOSTICS (A=without, GNOSTIC=knowledge) because they think we cannot know for sure the answers to some of the big questions about life, including whether god exists or not. Because there is no evidence for the existence of god, for an afterlife, Humanists live their lives as ATHEISTS (A= without, THEIST = god), find other reasons for living good lives.

Fellow, Nairalanders, Humanism is open to all unbelievers and non-religious people---atheists,rationalists,secularists,marxists, and materialists.

Therefore, if you are unchurched, unmosqued, unshrined, that is, if you reject or are critical of supernatural beliefs, then Humanism is for you.

My good friends including (PILGRIM.1) should note that one who believes in any gods, devils or supernatural beings cannot be Humanists. Those who believe in heaven, hell, an afterlife, another world, revelation, miracles and all forms of spiritual encounters cannot be Humanists. One must reject religions and all its deities in favour of the advancement of humanity to find true Humanism

The Happy Human symbol was chosen in a competition organized by IHEU member organization the British Humanist Association in 1965. It was designed by Dennis Barrington. Since then, it (or one of many variations) has been widely adopted by Humanist organizations, including IHEU.

The British Humanist Association holds the trademark in the UK for both the original (upright) happy human and the newer (bendy) version. Hanne Stinson, executive director of the BHA writes: "The upright logo is now used in the UK and internationally as a Humanist emblem (something we are happy to see) -- we are content for any Humanist organisation to use this emblem, and would not prevent anyone from using it in that way."

IHEU member organization Norwegian Humanist Association paid for the symbol to be professionally re-designed in 2005 and the latest versions are shown below.

   To know more about Humanism and Humanist organizations worldwide, please visit the below websites or write to the below addresses.

HUMANISTS WITHOUT BORDERS(HWB) P.O. BOX 35417, AGODI GATE P.O., IBADAN,200001, OYO STATE, NIGERIA humanistswithoutborders@gmail.com 07061277865

HUMANISTS WITHOUT BORDERS, OBAFEMI AWOLOWO UNIVERSITY, ILE-IFE

INTERNATIONAL HUMANIST AND ETHICAL UNION(IHEU) www.iheu.org

INTERNATIONAL HUMANIST AND ETHICAL YOUTH ORGANIZATION(IHEYO) www.iheyo.org

AMERICAN HUMANIST ASSOCIATION(AHA) www.americanhumanist.org

NIGERIAN HUMANIST MOVEMENT P.O. BOX 25269, MAPO, IBADAN , OYO STATE NIGERIA.

0
Avatar
Newbie

Dont you just want to laugh when these atheists try to ascribe to themselves the exclusive ability to "reason" and "science"?

Who told you christians cant reason and are not scientists? You are not a christian . . . do you believe you have more intelligence than Isaac Newton who was a christian?

What "science" are you talking about? Are you scientifically knowledgeable yourself? I know many born again christians who are scientists, surgeons and engineers in the USA. What are you?

0
Avatar
Newbie

Is that your point, or Thomas Jefferson's point?

0
Avatar
Newbie

The point here is that ain't reason rather than blidfolded fear and science rather than religion better for us in Nigeria?

0
Avatar
Newbie

And your point is. . .?

0
Avatar
Newbie
Your answer
Add image

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.