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What Religion Did The People Of Arabia Practise Before Islam?

I am just wondering since Islam is a relatively recent religion ( i think it started around the 5th / 6th century A.D) who or what did the people who Islam originated from worshipped before then. In the case of the christian religion, we know the Jews practised and still practise Judaism. Answers anyone?

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68 answers

You are perfectly right.

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@dexmond: « #67 on: Today at 01:11:19 PM »

@ POSTER

The religion of Meccans Muhammed introduced Islam is not fundamentally different.

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It means you are indirectly saying we should not regard history and archeology? Is it Islamic? Remember to seek knowledge even if it is in china!

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I wonder where did you get all that tell-tale, dexmond?

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@ POSTER

The religion of Meccans Muhammed introduced Islam is not fundamentally different. The Kabbah was original built by the pagans. The black stone that muslims kiss duing Hajj was kissed by the pagans too. The pagans run round the Kabbah too just as Mulims do today. The only major difference is that ALL THE ABOUT 350 IDOLS WHERE REMOVED LEAVING OUT Allah and thus declared to be the only true god instead of the Jews Allah(Jehovah).

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Am wondering why focus has not visit us today, i believe his doctor tied him up coz the situation today is out of hand. Heya, may Allah cure him from the disorder amin

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Yes I meant to write, davidylan instead of Ure, half asleep. Its the fall back on time.

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@Davidylan: « #45 on: July 30, 2008, 06:11 PM »

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@focused123

My thought towards responding to your points lies in between two extreme feelings, sometimes laughing and sometimes weeping just like prophet Noah relation with his people. On one side I feel that you yourself know the truth but you pretended as if it doesn't exist. Analogically, like someone who pretended to sleep while someone is trying to wake him up, its like fetching water with basket. Secondly, even if you claim what you belief is right, your lifestyles clearly show you are not, your attitude shows you re not following Jesus, like those who lies and deny the truth, while they try to provoke others, there punishment will be doubled on the day of judgment.

Who is more confused and mentally slow, if  I say Jesus was and is still human and someone said he was killed and still remain his god. While God Himself cant be killed. I think we need a doctor!

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@sir olabowale, focus is not ready to learn, even if u explain from today till the following day he won't believe, you can tell with the way he paint every thread with his anguish

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@Focused123: « #54 on: Yesterday at 04:02:43 PM »

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'Give the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment' Quran 4:138

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@Muhseen or Knitwit or whatever you are called :

I don't think there is any brain in your head. What you have in your head is just sawdust. I am stating facts and you said it is nonsense.

I am not surprise about Islam. It has already proven itself as a cult where facts and veracity are persistently denied and violence is used for the survival of their deadly cult.

God have mercy

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@Littleb :

I think you and Olabowale think with your butts. Noah did not pray for the destruction of his people. God instructed Noah to build an ark and ask people who cares to listen to him to come inside the ark because the sin of mankind is grieving God and God wants to destroy the earth.

You are the one who is psychotic in your thinking in a desperate bid to defend the indefensible. You know nothing about Jesus, so don't even say a word about him.

Muhammed was not a prophet in the first place.

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@Olabowale :

You are the one who thinks with your butts. Infact there is no brain in your head. The God of Abraham, is not Allah (which is the rock god of Kabbah). The faith of Abraham is not Muhammedan Islam. Abraham did not have a religion but a relationship/ friendship with God. Which is what Christianity is all about. Christianity is a relationship with God. We refer to God as our father and we are his children.

The Biblical Abraham practiced no rites, no rituals, no fetishes, no Qibla, no prostrations, no pilgrimage, no circumambulation of any 'holy' place but only obedience to the guidance of the Almighty. Rites, rituals, Qibla, prostrations, pilgrimage, circumambulation of the kabbah is part and parcel of Muhammedan Islam.       Most important of ALL, he did not even know a god with the name of Allah.

After all, the God of the Hebrews and of Israel has no name.

In fact, the Torah always speaks of

" The God of Abraham,

the God of Isaac and

the God of Jacob"

but NEVER once mentioning a name - especially not Allah - and not once saying " the God of Ishmael".

All the acts attributed to Abraham in the Quran are false - not mentioned in the Bible - but represent Muhammad's own pagan traditions which he transferred to Abraham - as part and parcel of Muhammad's Narcissism: Projective Identification - so that it would make him look holy.

In fact, the Torah has no concept or even a word denoting  religion. We refer to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Allah is NOT the God of Israel, but the PERSONAL NAME of the 'divine spirit' that according to the beliefs of the pagan Arabs,RESIDED in the

Black Stone meteorite - embedded in the wall of the Ka'ba - that was VENERATED by the pagan Arabians long before Muhammad and his Quran.

Allah is NOT The GOD of ISRAEL. Allah is NOT GOD.

The Hanifs were an Arab sect that was very much influenced by the indigenous  Jewish and Christian Arabs who have been in the Arabian Peninsula for centuries before Muhammad. The People of Arabia practise the Jewish faith, Christian faith and Paganism. When Muhammed came into the scene, through deceit, and war. He deceived others that he was the prophet and came up with Muhammedan Islam which is practised today

The Muhammedan ISLAM that you practise is complete Idolatry(Allah) and witchcraft (observing the moon). Allah is not GOD but god of kabbah which has been existing before Muhammed was born.

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Quit bothering to answer focused123. I wonder if he could understand a thing about Islam. All he knows is making noise, nuisance and nonsense posts.

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At least, good one from you! This is just a testification that path to monotheism is really a divine one, differ from what Christianity propagate. It is the same monotheism message Adam,Noah,Abraham,Moses and Jesus preach to their people. People after Jesus modified the uniqueness of God, turn His unique identity into three in one, turn the heavenly father to their beget father by professing and actions. For us to gain salvation, I think we need to seek redresses in searching the truth.

Most of the prophets were not accepted by their people. It is either they fought them, ran away or pray for their destruction. Noah pray for destruction of his people, Yunus ran away from people he was sent to, Even Jesus ordered those that deny him to be slain. please man, let our logical reasoning concise, enough of parochial thinking!

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Focused123 does not know that before Ibrahim, there was the Hebrew people and their language, and belief in One God, which was the belief system of Noah!

I think this dude Focused123 thinks with his butt! He only has one when people have 2 cheeks, expectially when the christians are whacked on one, the other must, I repeat must be turned ala Jesus commandment!

Muslims are Hanifans, the reason you hear some being named Hanif, for man, and Hanifah for woman. Again, Abuzola is correct to ask if youre seeing any sense in what you post.

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Focus, do you believe that what you posted makes sense

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The people of Arabia before Muhammed ( The Mafia Boss) believed in the God of Abraham. Although the Arabs also worshipped the Jinns (spirits). We also have some people we called the Hanifs.

Khadijah bint Khuwaylid ( Muhammad's wife); Waraqa b. Nawfal (her uncle); Obaydullah b. Jahsh; Uthman b. al Howayreth and Zayd b. Amr b. Nufayl. all believed in the God of Abraham.

Abraham Isma`il Isaac Jacob and the Tribes, Moses and Jesus and (all) Prophets were HEBREW Prophets who existed from 2500 to 600 years BEFORE Muhammad and his Quran. They all believed in the God of Abraham.

The path to Monotheism in Arabia was already laid down before Muhammad was even borne by the Jews of Arabia, centuries BEFORE Muhammad and his Quran. In Today Saudi Arabia, before Muhammedan Islam, there were Christian Arabs as well as Jewish Arabs. It was Muhammed who massacred and drove all of them to extinction simply because they did not believe he was a prophet.

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@davidylan,

For your soul not able to comprehend and accept the truth is resulted to forgery. We are not denying your ref as long as you are quoting from undilluted source. Neverheless, you didn't get it. If your father is from Ijebu and your mother is from Ibadan, in your own sense, you claim Ibadan, people might have proof you are from Ijebu coz there is need for thier story line to you. However, your great grandmother maybe originally from Ibadan.

However, the researcher has never prove himself infallible coz they use all available materials to prove thier point. Truth seekers can only judge them base on how reliable the material is. However, regarding the story line of Jonah, it was recorded that seventy souls went down to Egypt with Jacob and his family, some of which were recorded by names of thier clans. If broken could have occured in my post doesn't means Jonah wasn't linked wih Judah. Pls don't disrupt the discussion, the point is Muhammad, Ishmael is the ancestor of Mohammed; it is an undeniable fact, accepted by all researchers. Those people who have dedicated their lives to the pursuit of detailed historical facts regarding the history of the Bible through the unbiased logical study of the countless ancient documents of the Christian empire, the Bible itself, and other methods. Your amateur research methodology proves you’ve only cherry-picked statements that conform to your own erroneous notions and to confound others. If you are unable to trace Muhammad ancestors beyond Adnan, that is your problem, no one will help you research it.

And i ask you a question, what happen in the desert where Abraham left a mother and the baby, and the water source they drink, you ignore it. Muslims are encourage not to be a dogma in thier belief, that is why they are compel to study other religion and compare them to Islam. If I guess, you were born by christian parent, thus you are a chrisitan, "faith by inheritance". Have you ever thought to read Quran? Then, maybe you will see the better light. Fourteen hundred years ago, the holy book of the Muslims, the Qur’an, was sent down upon the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by God informing him that

mankind had dared to change the religion of God which He sent down upon Jesus, Moses, and the previous prophets (peace be upon them all). It has taken close to two thousand years for Christianity to recognize this as a known fact. This is very glaring among variuos scolars and scientists criticism that this reprensible book call bible could not be totally from God. Look man, for who is better silly than who light has been given to and extinguish it and start walking in darkness. I do not have much time on net and insha Allah, I will respond to your critics as long as I m chance. Muslims never a coward, they came with coherence fact. and as yoruba would say "Oro ologbon bakana lo mari, tomugo nikan lo yato. So, the message of all prophets. Your God is one GOD not trio, jesus not son of God and not elevated to your imaginary god.

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As usual you attempt to ignore the blatant errors in mohammad's alleged genealogy to start ur usual rooster and bull story about christianity.

Can you discuss islam without constant, unhealthy recourse to christianity?

Does islam have an identity outside the God of the bible?

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@Davidylan: As stated by me, and littleb, the only one who is correct, among mankind, is Muhammad (AS). If I shot littleb geneology in the foot, or he shot mine, the issue is this: Who shot the idea of 3 in 1 gods in the Bible, when the Bible says, from older prophets and Jesus repeating it, Oh Israel, your Lord God is One Lord? Now which part is shooting each other in your case? To respond to that young David, is a waste of time. E fi mi sile pelu david. Ko ni rimi fin. Mo mo pe omo daada ni. To ba ko ja aye e, ma paruwo mo. Afun mi lowo Ijebu Ode si Ijebu Ode. lol.

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Responding to that old alhaji olabowale is a waste of time.

Littleb . . . your fellow muslima just shot your "genealogy" in the foot again.

But Littleb's false "genealogy" records something VERY different -

1. It records Jonah as being the son of Benjamin and NOT Judah.

Who of the two of you is lying?

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@Davidylan:

Here is what I got concerning the clan of Yunus from the Children of Israel:

The Story of the Prophet Yunus (pbuh)

Yunus (pbuh) was the son of Amittai, from the clan of Judah. Allah sent Yunus (pbuh) as a Prophet to the people of Ninewa (North Western Iraq). The towns people we're idolaters and very proud of this. They had been worshipping idols for generations. The stubborn people of the town refused to even listen to Yunus's (pbuh) teachings. Yunus (pbuh) warned them, that a great punishment would come to them from Allah. The shameless people of the village said to him "If Allah wants to punish them, then so be it."

Now tell me where did you get your below quoted information, as written?

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@Davidylan:

Like i said before, if aint in Qur'an and hadith andthe sources of said information is not from either, it aint worth reading. Just like the sufi who developed a concept that struggle, in its appropriate form that is situation appropriate or the ahmadiyyah who believed that a prophet came after Muhammad are to me deviant, and will mean nothing to me, in the places that they differ, from authentic teaching of islam, in the Qur'an and sunnah, then, it is the same with anything, including the so called geneology that is eating your "grapes." However i want you to present your Jonah evidence.

This guy, David does not believe in existence of Angel Gabreil, from his statement above. It also seems to me that he does not believe in "REVELATION." Allah's messenger on the matter of Tarawih, the long prayers made in the month of ramadan, known as Ashamu in Yorubaland, did not make it more that 2 or 3 days in leading the congregation.

His reason was that he did not want the making of it and or the congregational making of it an obligation on his community. So people can make it individually or congregationally. The number of rakah can also be different, 2 times 2, or any part up to 2 times 10.

Further in Surah Kahf, the people who were in the cave with their dog were not 100% known for sure by many people, except those who Allah gives the knowledge, even though the number is in there. The wisdom of not emphasising on the geneology maybe the same way that the muslims consider the wives of the prophet as their own mother, while the Qur'an declares that Muhammad is not the father of any of you "men," rather he is the messenger and a seal of prophethood.

David, have you ever asked yourself what did each of the sons of Jacob? Why was there not such a long piece of information on any except Joseph, who they all bowed their head to? This reminds me of the Jacob who you foolish say prevailed over God and man, is put in a position whereby he had to humble himself before his own son, Joseph.

Now do you see the discrepancies in your Bible, that a person who is honored by God, and he never did anything after that that will warant him  being humiliated can not be debased as to prostrate his face before his own son who is now in a position of authority in another land. David whom you called adulterer was not ven made subjected to any of his sons, including Solomon the wise.

Now tell me why would Jacob have to bow to his son, jaseph and his brothers, including Judah also bowed his face? Why didn't we know so much or almost nothing about the daughters of jacob, since we are talking about geneology? Why is the Bible so quite about all the persons in the lines of each and every prophet, up to Prophet Jesus, your lord? Tell me all the names of the 4 generation of the children of Adam. No do less work, give me the names of all of his grandchildren, they will not be as many as their own children.

Liar, David. I can clearly state that you are a bigtime liar now. Afterall, you are my son, just not begotten. I leave that title to my brother. You are not even sure where paran is located, hence you use the general deceitful expression, "Much closer," to blindfold us. Well, it does not work.

Your sttement is almost like the statement of ilorin people, where Sola saraki comes from. When these people call themselves hausas, instead of the yorubas that they truly are, you can't but wonder what kind of demented mind will run away from his own heritage like that, especially when Sola is clearly a yoruba word and not indigenous to any of the many norther tribes. But the Hausas call them bastards, meaning they are not authentic.

This is how i read your not in Makka but closer to Egypt statement. How then did Zamzam water came about. Can you and your history professors tell us? Oje master, David you. I will not even dignify your statement any further if you continue to lie this foolishly.

Can I say therefore that there is no proof that your paternal bloodline comes from Ijebu Ode? Will that be accurate? I hiss and just laugh at the silly thought.

The fact is that Qur'an is different from your Bible. We don't have to know that a man spilled his seed outside, especially if the woman did not get pregnant. We leave that to the Indecency industrial blueprint book of yours. When Qur'an says a man can enter his wife, it did not say anything about Instruments or spilling in or out any seed. Those who are married know what matrimonial entering means!

Only a disbeliefer speaks like you. And I am not surprised that you know something much more important than "belief in One god." Please tell me one of them and I will personally debunk that it is under the umbrella of the belief that God is one, it that statement is any good.

Will an Igbo man in Aba, who has never visited the Yorubaland can truly tell an Oyo man who have lived all his life in the Yoruba enclave say that Ijebu people are not Yorubas or that their land is not in Yorubaland? This is what you and your non Arabic professors are doing, with whatever lies you posted from their material. I wonder about ibrahim and ismail erecting of the Kaaba, especially when there is a place there called Station of Ibrahim. Even the pagan arabs knew about this station before the islam of Muhammad (AS) was preached in their mist.

Since you eat pork, and the expression, you are what you eat, I will say your piggy frame of mind will not let you see the truth if it stare you directly, without any thing between you and it. They say on wall street, the bull wins, and the bear wins, only the pig loses.

Read th Qur'an, you will find it. Since you are so dishonest, i will not help you but to just tell you to research them. You only blindly and deceitfully ask question without the ability to search the source of the information out before going on a rampage of questioning. If I wanna know what trinity means I go on search engine. I then may ask if trinity as a word is in the Bible. I can also ask if it is in the Qur'an.

All of you are disbelievers. We clarify each and all of you, together. While you and the Jews are Kafir, the others are Mushrik as well as kafir.

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@davidylan,

You are still not properly fetched about Islam. The hadith is a collection of prophet traditions. Quran is still the most authentic and undiluted source of information. Hadith is considerred sound and healthy if it's in line with Quran such is Bible; a collection of many books. What happen after Jesus almost happen after prophet Muhammad. The hypocryte almost turn false to truth by fabricating so many says of the prophets. Thus, there are hadith collectors prefarably considerred right. Also, many hadiths considerred fabricated (by anti-islam) have been disparaged by the scolars and some considerred not sound. Al-kitab Atabaqat was a collection of different stories from earlier collectors of hadith by ibn Sa'd. Ibn Sa'd was a scolars who never prove himself infallible. Such are the stories from the bible which make it a reprehensible book up till now. Thus, it's unacceptable as the total word of God. As far as Hadith is concern, apologist can come up with thier plagiarizm with no verification.

Then, show the geographical evidence. Then I ask you a question, what happened to the child and the mother? What was the source of the water the drink afterwards. what happen to the water source and and what is hapening there now? We muslims refer the place as ZAM-ZAM. And as you said,"historical and geographical" was the place shifted or historical distortion?

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@Davidylan

The five pillars of islam; Which one is a derivitive of Christian or jewish tenets? I confess that no god is worthy of my worship/or exist, except The God Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger. The salah prayer, the giving of Zakat, the fasting known as saum, from before dawn to dusk, the time the sun sets, and making hajj to Makka. Tell me which one is a thread or piece from the skirt of Christianity? By the way, I wear a wrap around known as Hizzah, is that what is the Christian skirt? The wrap around is similar to the old ibo people wrap themselves with. Is that christian Skirt too?

The fact that you develop a concept in a book, without a title of that concept in the same book, bring to mind its fishyness. It is a lie. Let me help you. If the people who discovered the gene strands, just talk about it, wthout ever write the word, "Gene," anywhere in any of the books that talk about genetics and genoms, then i am sure when they give you presentation in a lecture about their findings, and they will say that they are talking about "Gene," there will be looks of bewilderment about a claimed substance without a Title. You are believing in falacy of 3 in 1. Shameful thing.

The crumble off the table. Good one dave, and, it reminds me of the statement of jesus himself who made a human being a dog because the person is not Jewish, even with the crumb off the table, they were not good for it, if it fell from the jewish table. By the way, how did you treat your own househelps, Omo aje butta? Liar to the teeth. I hear you loud and clear. If you are joint heir, than a slave, how is the slave bold enough to talk to their Master directly, while you a heir install some other "heir," to talk for you? That is silly. Rather a condition developed because you are not sure.

You ae right. Whileyou keep pedalling 3 in 1, I concentrate on 1 God. I know my God, Allah, but who is yours, the father, Jehovah, or the son, Jesus or the holy spirit, with no name? Choose wisely Davidylan? You see how ridiculous your presentation is? Allahu Akbar Kabirah.

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They are also in story books . . .

Why is it that mohammad himself spoke about his own genealogy? why are your scholars obsessed with concocting a genealogy for mohammad? Has genealogy suddenly become "mundane" because you cant find a coherent one to cover up your tracks of lies?

Very comical, rather than explain an islamic discrepancy this old man is back to his usual "jews this christians that".

Jonah could not have been the third generation son of Benjamin. Its basic history !

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@Queenisha:

Adam , Ibrahim, Ismail, the tribe of Quraishi and Muhammad are all in the Qur'an. Where do you have any difficultyafter this? In medicine, when you perform an operation, if you are surgeon, I don't think you will tell anyone, when you relate the story to include how many times you blinked your eyes, how long you stood still before you moved your feet. Neither would you related the song you sang under your breath, on the way to the theater. These will be mundane events in the story of the successful operation. Qur'an does not deal in mundane things.

You will not read how Muhammad walked the street of Madina or between the houses in small back street/alley ways of Makka. I know the Bible is filled with all of those, including deceitful ways of acquiring properties, whereby a type of leave was used to separate good ewe that produce babies, from the almost barren ones. Woman, you are obsessed with geneology to proof what point, exactly?

If it is in the Qur'an and explained in the hadith and sunnah, and any material that does not get its sources from these two is unimportant to me. Salah is commanded in the Qur'an and ahadith explained it all, and, so are other aspects of Islam. What you should

@Davidylan:

In Yorubaland, the Ondo people call, Benson beenii, while the Ibadan call it benshin. Which one is correct, benson of the Oyinbos, or the beenii of the ondos or the benshin of the ibadans? Are they not correct to each of the individual tongue speaker?  You will see that it is the Jews and by extensions the Christian who are so gone hoo about the issue of the Arabs and muhammad, so much that prior to Muhammad (AS) being sent, they have bastardized the relationship of Ismail with his fathr and of course with his younger brother.  Whats David, English or Jewish pronounciation?

They even claim Ibrahim was a jew, and not a person from Iraq's old city known as Ur. We must have this question, is Ur inhabitted by non Jewish people or jewish people used to leave there before he move? Was he not a tribeman of the tribe of which he was born? Did the tribe known as Jew started on him or after him, since you can not prove that the people of Ur were jews.

I just want to use a terrible story that occurred in New york this past few weeks to illustrate this point; A naturalized US citizen from Nigeria, who rose to a position of authority in the employ of the city stole almost 1 million USD from the funds of the department he worked. When they arrested him, he suddenly became a Nigerian, and not a US citizen anymore. How can we say that Ibrahim is a jew is what I am saying here. While you are obsesses with mundane aspect of things, Islam is focused on pleasing and praising God and looking forward to the inevitable event of Judgement day.

David, did you get your information above from a www search engine, eg google. there is cuil, now. Now present your evidence before i even try to debunk it by present my islamic evidence. You will note that the vies i have of the Biblical account is not favorable, this single subject of Yunusa may just be what will bring you to my side, instead of your hardheadedness with the Bible. I will be waiting, David.

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Olabowale pls deal with the subject of this thread, your penchant for running away only to appear to start your usual hubris about bible verses you dont understand is appalling.

Why is a muslim always so obsessed about the bible?

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@Queenisha:

Please note that throught out these many verses above, he did not answer the singular question asked. Instead he gave information about his "sheep," how he can keep them, without them getting snatched off his hand, since his "father," had given them to him. But it was truly that theese "sheep," are can never be snatched from the hand of his "father," who is greater than "all." Please not that all here includes "Jesus," the alleged speaker of these verses.

Finally, we see where he says that he and his fathr are one. Now if on one hand his father gave the sheep to him, and, on the other hand he and his father are one, then please tell me where was his father, heaven or earth when he and his followers said the Lord's prayer? Were all his sheep his siblings since they bothe said "our Father?" When Jesus was making prayers and petitioning theone who could save him, was his father and him both making that prayer, crying out, etc?

When he specified that the will of the father is to be done and his own will is secondary and unimportant, was he talking about himself? Wouldn't that have been a statement of an unstable mind, if he and his father are one? I am not interested in belaboring the issue, because i know you get the idea. Think about that expression, "I and my father are one." Are they truly one, if he yelled out on the cross which he was nailed on, "my God, My God, why has thou forsakened me?"

Is the statement who is truly a son, but an entity who recognizes his audiance as his God not his father? When I read all these proposition of God and Jesus, I can't but wonder how one could fall for such a bad collection of ideas to support such a clearly wrong notion. I hope you have a son, woman and when he says that he and your husband are one, and he then decided to climb into your bed to perform the duties of your husband.

When you slap him silly that he and his father are separate and it was not his position to show you who is the man, you must have to go back to your Biblical verse and say, haha, the writer must have been a big time delutional group of nitwits. And please do not forget that when the NT recorded the "do" of how Mary got pregnat , trying to kill the idea of just the direct "will" as in command of God, they say "the spirit of the Lord came upon her an over shadowed her!" Now tell me what does that mean; was Jesus also part of this overshadowing of Mary?

When Jesus went to the fire of hell and was fought the devil, according to the Bible in those 3 badly calculated 3 days and 3 nights from Friday, just before the beginning of sabbath, and just after the dawn of Sunnday, was the father dead too, in order to participate in all that Jesus "did" in his alleged death? Think baby. Neither Zainab Ndidi nor Emeka, both Owerri women, will let Olayiwola or Oladunwo say to them look lady, I and olabowale are one, so get ready for my performance of my father's duties on you.

Yet I and my sons agree that we have this father and sons relationship, and not a mere statement of "begotten," because their mother 'Lola can attest to it. Was any attestation made by Mary that God was the father of her son? We already know that only God can make any one get pregnant, becoming a parent. A woman who is overshadowed by an entity and get impregnated by that process will certainly know the feeling, especially when that was they first experience. Is there anybreakage of the hymen, a clear sign of this overshadowing? You are in medicine help us, Doctor.

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The essence of my rebuttals was 3-fold:

1. The presence of "unimportant" errors in the so-called genealogy is a clear proof that no one interested in truth should take it seriously. When a "genealogy" claims that Jonah is the third generation son of Benjamin then we need to be VERY careful.

2. Mohammad himself actively discouraged tracing his genealogy and had this to say - from Ibn Sa‘d:

, he on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas; he said: Verily the Prophet (may peace be upon him), WHENEVER he related his genealogy, DID NOT GO BEYOND MA‘ADD IBN ‘ADNAN IBN UDAD, then he kept quiet and said: The narrators of genealogy ARE LIARS, since Allah says: "There passed many generations between them."

Ibn ‘Abbas says: The Prophet would have been informed of the genealogy (prior to Adnan by Allah) if he (Prophet) had so wished.

, he on the authority of ‘Abd Allah. Verily he recited "(The tribes of) ‘Ad and Thamud and those after them; NONE SAVETH Allah KNOWETH THEM." The genealogists ARE LIARS.

3. Ma'n Ibn 'Isa al-Ashja'i al-Qazzaz (silk-merchant) informed us; he said: Mu'awiyah Ibn Salih informed us on the authority of Yahya Ibn Jabir who had seen some Companions of the Prophet and said: The people of Banu Fuhayrah came to the Prophet and said to him: You belong to us. He replied: Verily, (the archangel) Gabriel has informed me that I belong to Mudar. (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Volume I, p. 4)

This is yet more evidence that the so-called "genealogy" is not based on any serious historical source but is merely dependent on spurious claims such as a "revelation" from the Angel Gabriel.

1. Ishmael indeed settled in the desert of Paran BUT there is clear historical and geographical evidence to prove that Paran was NO WHERE near Mecca but was actually much closer to Egypt!

2. There is NO proof that Ishmael's lineage gave rise to Mohammad's generation. This is nothing but wild unsubstantiated conjecture which is contradicted by several muslim scholars.

Whenever the quran is caught in "little" discrepancies that cannot be explained we start getting excuses such as "quran only shed light . . .", why indeed is the quran so vague on such issues that the bible took extremely seriously if indeed both documents are from the same God?

This idea that all the biblical prophets came with the same message of "belief in one God" has been debunked several times. Samuel, Elijah e.t.c. all came with specific assignments . . . much more important than "belief in one God".

Its apparent you are not doing the very thing you recommend to me. Historical sources clearly show that mohammad's lineage can only be correct before Adnan and not beyond.

Paran is clearly not in Mecca but between Palestine and Egypt according to historical sources.

If the truth is indeed so clear there would be no need of "minor differences".

And we keep asking, where are these "revelations" in the quran? Are they lost?

The problem is that you people seem to be obsessed with "clearing truth from falsehood" ONLY from the christian perspective. Are you also clearing truth from falsehood with the buddhists, Sikhs, sango worshippers? Why the undue obsession with the bible, the jews and the christians?

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@davidylan

Sorry for my late response. I think your question was answerred. You ask for genealogy of Muhammad and not Jacob or Abraham. I quite agree with you that Jacob had 12 sons and whatever you claim in others, I believe the author might have skipped unimportant elements in the tree to arrive at what we need, which is Muhammad. For the sake of clarity, I think the concentrating point is Muhammad which you are not clear of. Do you believe Abraham(Ibrahim) had a son Ismail which  was left in the desert with her mother(Hajar) which lead to Muhammad generation. If you believe this, from your own understanding, where is this desert and what happened there. All those events play an important role in Islam. Do you have anything against that? Quran only shed light that all these prophets are brethren and they were sent with the same message (preaching blief in one God) which is complementing what was earlier revealed.

David, I wish you take it upon yourself, google Muhammad genealogy from any historical book and be claer of any different with what I post. However, minor differences in the names and some skipping generation. So clear is the truth unless we don't want to accept it. Allah says in the Quran:

We did aforetime send apostles before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah. but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods. Qr 40:78

Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." Qr 2:136

Qur'an 4:163-165

163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms;

164 And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;

165 Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

And we keep on answering you there is need to clear truth from falsehood. God is not three, no son and no family. All prophets are messangers from Him, they came to preach monothiesm, believe in one God and not associating partners to Him. The truth was distorted, Jesus is not son of God or God either. He was neither slumber nor crucified. If you think all those will not be mentioned in discussion like this, you are mistaken and there is option, you either in or out.

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We keep asking the very same question - How is it possible that a muslim can confidently speak about islam without feeling the need to hide under the skirts of christianity?

Again, the fact that you do not understand the concept of the trinity does not make it false.

I'd rather be a joint heir with Christ than a slave. I'm sure you knew how you treated ur own househelps, i doubt they ever got anything more than the crumbs that fell off your table.

All that is meaniingless linguistic gymnastics. No one is interested in "names" . . . the God of the bible aint the same as that of the quran. Its really not by force.

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Jhn 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

Jhn 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.[fn2]

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

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Sorry to answer the question, the people of Arabia practised idolatory or paganism.

Quit drooling over the use of the name Allah before the coming of the prophet of Islam.

in Yorubaland, before we knew about xtianity or Islam, we called God, Olorun, Olodumare, eleda etc.

Today, calling God by those same names does not make you a pagan.

please put forth some better arguments

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Christ is God, God is christ, Hmnnnnnn

Okay Mr Xtian is same with Christ, a joint heir WITH christ,, Hmmmnnnnn

There is also Holy ghost or spirit,

Hmmnnn,,, the three is one and still joint heirs with Mr Xtian,

Ok technically, that is four but it;s ok since 1+1+1 =1,

then the trinity 3 + 1 joint heirdom can also = 1

Hmmnnnn, tskk, tskkk, (chews on pen)

Perfect, equation balance.

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it must be remembered that the Prophet used to say, “beyond Adnan none but Allah knoweth, and the genealogists lie.”

Do you, littleb admit that your attempted "genealogy" is a boldfaced lie?

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Littleb, just a simple proof that the above nonsense you claim as a genealogy is false . . . Jacob had 12 sons not 4.

Abraham had more that 3 sons . . . were is Esau?

Noah had 3 sons not 2.

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@davidllan,

Whatever your aguement in this matter, we would continue walloing in a loop as far as religious is concern. And that's is the politics of belief. As a muslim, it is very obvious Allah make us to understand, you or any other worshipers will not practice mine and I will not practice yours. Qr.109. However, muslims are oblige to call thier attention to it. Qr. 3:64. , and if they turn back, we should leave them. Moreover, not only muslims are doing this, christian also call muslims to accpet thier faith knows right that they are muslims. So, nnbody forces one to belief, every faith is making her noise.

As a muslim my obligation towards christian is like a person sees another suffering from a fatal disease, and he firmly believes that he holds the cure for the disease, and he also claims to have sympathy for the human race, then how is it possible for him to intentionally turn away when called upon to provide a remedy? I believe your own maybe similar, if not stop further arguement, and let people with interest continue.

This is not a matter of forcing believe, it is a presentation for those who care to know. If someone say no, with clear evidence and refuse to accept, so be it. People with better reasoning will accept.

If you belief it, then check this. Otherwise, if your view is different, let us know.

www.answering-christianity.com/family_tree.htm

Then prove it, you can quote from Quran if you wish. People want to know the truth, that is why it is debatable. You either in or out.

Quran is enough for thier faith. Muslim will desperate to prove bible wrong, if actually it is coz people want to know the truth. Likewise, christian are desperate to prove Quran wrong. And if I may ask you, Is bible wrong or right. I know, your answer will be right. Then, prove it, are you afraid! make it a debate and welcome christian, Muslims, Jewish, Hindus, athiest e.t.c contributions. Then, leave truth seekers to judge.

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Yet again we are forced to ask . . . is islam predicated solely on denying biblical doctrine? You seem to have a very unhealthy emphasis on showing the bible in the wrong . . . why is it imperative that the christian God must be the same as the islamic God? I dont see you haranguing the Sango worshippers on their own definition of God.

If the bible chooses to refer to God as a FATHER, why is the muslim desperate to say no?

the quran says you are servants, why are you trying to make it general? My bible says i'm a son and joint heirs with Christ, have you seen me trying to force it on you?

Where then is it? Can you pls post this "glaring" genealogy?

Jesus Christ called Himself the Son of God, bled and died on the Cross for my sins (perhaps not urs) . . . does mohammad believe this also?

Again i ask - why the desperation to force-fit mohammad in among Christ and the biblical prophets? Cannot Mohammad and his generic "message" about One God stand alone?

99% of the time your "proof" seems to center around quoting pages and pages of the bible but precious little from the quran. Why is the average muslim so conversant about the bible when the christian cant be bothered about the quran?

Yawn, we all know its a case of muslims outbreeding everyone else.

What is it with the muslim and the desperate attempt to prove the bible wrong? Is the quran not enough for their faith?

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@davidylan,

I read your conversation with olabowale, I laugh at all these jokes and absurds with diff analogies. Without doubt in mind, God quality is beyond associating a son or family to Him. If father should be use, it is should be in the context that it owns all of us in terms of provisions and protection. Due to this misinterpretation, misconception and confusion, Islam devoid of using such word to qualify God. We are all servants, in this sense: thus gives whoever He wants and deprive whoever. The genealogy of mohammad is very glaring all over the internet, and he has not come to against Jesus(Isa) teaching. Jesus, Muhammad and all other prophet came to preach the same thing; that we worship only one GOD which is supreme, not the angels or them(prophets). Thus, our own call. If we can bring proof from the books and see clearly that this is true, why cant we abide by it. People are becoming muslims all over the world, not the reason that God appear to them in dream or they are affected by miracle or because of muslims attitude, however prominently see the the truth in the words of God after serious comparision. In the earlier stage of Islam, letters were sent to nations to embrace Islam, which they do after confirming in line with previuos revelation to them. We say our God is one, no son(or children).

The issue of Jesus is God/son of God has been a transformation or misconception of truth which call for debating and it should start from the books(Bible and Quran).

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you're a decietful coward. Numerous islamic websites abound making noise about the "contradictions" in the genealogy of Christ. Ask people like this deluded alhaji to produce the genealogy of mohammad and they start dancing musical chairs with the truth.

Before you start "reminding" us of anything make sure you have ur own genealogy of mohammad in hand.

show me PROOF u're here talking nonsense. Is it so hard to just point to some history in the bible or quran?

What a confused man you are. In your village do slaves have a direct relationship (face to face) with their masters?

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@Davidylan:

~Lady~ venerates Mary. You Davidylan don't. Will your not venerating her make you a bad christian? Does it have any impact on your being raptured or going to Christian heaven? If your answer to each is no, then it is not necessary to know every little details of Muhammad's forefathers, except the important ones. But I have to tell you that he said that none of his forefathers participated in illegal sex, all the way from Adam to his own father Abdallah. Give me relevant question, so that i can respond. Jawo kuro ni nu irrelevant questions!

I never started and no time did i demand you gave me the geneology of jesus. go back and check it. I responded when so of you were so boastful about. I had to remind you guys some of those persons in his geneology wer liars and adulterers, etc, if you go by you Bible. I felt there was nothing to be proud about.

I will remeber not to throw stone, okay rocks, or rolling boulders at my glass house. however if i build a glace house, the thickness of the glass will be many inches, to that it can withstand whatever is thrown at it.

All of a sudden you got the acute case of anmesia, dave about Ismail and his mother living in Makka. Then tell me where did they live after they were "Biblically sent/casted out" of the house where sarah did not want to see them? Aburo, talk true.

There is Zamzam, Safa and marwa mountains. What will Ismail and his mother have to do with any of these o? Am thinking! lol. Where is Osisi?

I need to remind you of the biblical song about ligh and oil: Ko ma sepo o, ara, ko ma sepo. Ejowo e lo ra loja boko yawo ba de, ki le o ti so?! What it shows is that some of you are in the dark even when the "christian bridegroom," arrives. I am inviting you to a situation that God will give you light upon light. Read Surah Nur (Chapter on light). Read Surah Fath (Chapter on Victory). In chapter on victory, you will see the light on the faces of those who prostrate their faces to Allah. I see it everyday. I am inviting you to success. Grab my hand.

Ose to tie kimi ni pele. But he created you and he made a son, instead? Yet you install a patron, jesus between you and Him, while me who is not more than a slave do not have anyone between He and i as i am free to talk to Him, directly? Who is truly free between you and I? Who truly have a sound relationship with Him? While you are trying to call jesus to take your demand to Him, I, on the other hand have my go to Him directly, without a viel! Now tell whose condition is better? Since Jesus talked to Him directly, I also do the same. By the Lord of the Kaaba, I am a fortunate and victorious.

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this is irrelevant. We are talking about a man who claims to have brought a religion from God not just some random Ijebu man.

Its funny that such an important detail suddenly becomes "mundane" to explain away the dearth of information regarding so "mighty" a "prophet" and yet the same you spent months haranguing others about the genealogy of Christ in Matthew and Luke.

Maybe next time when you want to cast rocks remember ur house of glass.

where is the PROOF?

I cannot cross from light unto darkness. sorry.

Keep decieving urself. He created you and made you no more than a slave? Pele alhaji.

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@Davidylan;

I am from Pakulopa family in Italapo street, ijebu Ode. I knew my father and i heard about his father. Ther rest of the story of my forebearers, I do not know. It however does not even take my boys out of being authentic men of that family. The root of Muhammad to Ibrahim, springs from Ismail. Whats the essence of the mondane details, when we all know that he came from the Hashimi clan of the Quraishi tribe of Makka. Didn't Ismail and his mother Hajar lived in Makka, Dave? You make me happy by your hardness. It shows that when you become a muslim, you will be a strong Muslim, InshaAllah.

While you have many gods, melchizedek in the phantom salem, and Jesus, the baby god, I have God the Almighty, who create everything, including all the worlds! Good night david, john boy. lol. I think thats little house on the preirre,

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