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When Is Jesus God And When Is He Christ?

In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus calls a prayer to his Father. On the cross, he calls out "Father, Father why has thou forsaken me?"

He reminds his followers "Not even the son knows of the second coming, but the Father"

Who is Jesus referring to as the Father? Was he referring to himself? Could Jesus have forsaken himself?

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What Does The Bible Say About The Blood of Jesus?

Just as the body needs cleansing, we also need that cleansing work in our spirits and souls. When the Holy Spirit points out sin to us, we need to repent and confess that sin so that we can be cleansed of it. The above Scripture says that if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we will be in fellowship one with another. As Christians, if we have broken fellowship with any member in the body of Christ, one or both of us will be walking in darkness and sin. God never divides and separates His body. We should always strive to walk in peace and harmony with all of our brothers and sisters in Christ. Of course, if there are those who refuse to fellowship with us, then we must leave them in the hands of the Lord and pray for them. However, we should be very sure that there is nothing at our end of the relationship that is preventing fellowship, lest we be guilty of "walking in the dark."

If there are those who are rebellious and refuse to "walk in the light," then the church leadership should seek the Lord as to how to handle the problem. Perhaps the Lord would have the fellowship fast and pray for those individuals. The Spirit of Christ always seeks to reconcile any division. He requires those that are strong to bear the burdens of those that are weak. The Lord would have those that are mature to pray for and love those that are immature. If those involved in conflict would put on the nature of Christ during those times, the Lord would bring forth victory each time.

We are not to defend our position, but are to trust God to defend us even if we have been unduly wronged. Fighting back with words and hostile feelings only compounds the problem. We must ask for God’s grace and love for those who oppose us. We must recognize it is the enemy at work against our marriages, homes, friendships and churches. Dependence upon God and His tools is the only way for our victory to come. If we are to be cleansed and purged by the Lord, we must yield completely to Him and His working in conflicting situations.

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee from youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will (2 Timothy 2:21-26).

Not only does the blood of Jesus bring cleansing to the body, but the Scripture says in Hebrews 9:14 that it will , purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God. The Lord desires that all the evil in our hearts and minds and consciences be purged so that we can have the mind of Christ. This cleansing process is accomplished by applying the Word of God to our lives. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you (John 15:3). By fellowshipping with the Word (Jesus) and reading the Word (the Bible), we shall be made clean. The more of His Word that we know and apply, the cleaner our vessel shall be. The Word of God cleanses and the blood of Jesus cleanses. When Jesus offered up His blood, He did it so that you and I could become clean, holy vessels.

Life Is in the Blood

The blood of Jesus also brings life to us, just as the blood in the physical body carries the life. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat (Genesis 9:4). Those who do not know the Lord Jesus are dead and have no life in them. Also, those who refuse to accept Christ will never have any life in them.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you, He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him (John 6:53 and 56).

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Anything that is not life is not from the Lord. Death and sickness are the enemies of man.

Jesus said in John 10:10, The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

If we do not accept the life of Christ, eternal death will result. Just as life leaves when the blood flows out of the natural body, so it is true with those who have not the divine flow within their veins.

Sin Requires Shedding of Blood

Under the Old Testament law, the penalty for men’s sins (that were not punishable by death) was the sacrifice of an animal’s life. The shedding of blood was required to atone for their sin. We might wonder why such a terrible thing was required by God. Why were innocent little lambs and doves slain and their blood sprinkled on the altar? Perhaps we can understand this if we place ourselves in the situation of being instructed to kill an animal for telling a lie or committing some other sin. When one must kill an innocent animal because of his sin, it illustrates the awfulness of sin. God wanted man to understand that when he sinned, it meant death for something or someone.

If we were still under the Old Testament law today, we would be required to take a little lamb and kill it for our sins. This would be difficult for most of us because we would cringe at the thought of slaying anything innocent. The Lord wanted us to realize that the penalty of sin would cause a life to be taken. When people had to take a little dove and bring it to be slain upon an altar as an offering for their sins, the impact of sin became real to them. Sin always requires a sacrifice.

Today, we have the Spirit of God that cleanses us from our sins as we confess them. Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and His death and shed blood paid the price for sin once and for all. No longer does an animal need to be offered for our sins.

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all (Hebrews 10:6-9).

Jesus’ Blood Gives Health and Strength

Another function of the human blood is its capacity to bring healing to the physical body. Human blood is composed of more than just red blood cells. In fact, over half (55 percent) of our blood is not red at all. It is a clear liquid, known as plasma, that is 92 percent water. The other 8 percent includes many essential substances necessary to keep our bodies healthy. These are proteins, hormones, vitamins, enzymes and salts. Should the body become ill, the blood alters its normals to adjust and promote healing. The white blood cells (leucocytes) are the body’s first line of defense against bacterial invaders. When bacteria enter the body, white blood cells are produced in great numbers. They travel to the infection and engulf the invaders. The blood of Jesus spiritually does the same for the body of Christ. When Satan invades, the Holy Spirit stands ready to come to our aid and bring the needed healing. The Lord desires that we walk in divine health. If we stay in close communion with Him, we will find our spiritual man will not become sick and depleted, needing continual healing. Satan tries to drain us of our spiritual strength and weaken us to the point where we have no resistance against His attacks. Staying in the flow of God’s Spirit prevents this, as we then have His strength to overcome and walk victoriously.

The natural body becomes weak when proper diet and rest are neglected. This results in a condition commonly referred to as "tired blood." The medical name for this is "anemia," and it is due to the lack of iron in the red blood cells. The iron compound in the red blood cells is medically termed "hemoglobin." When this is low, the body becomes weary and fatigued. The blood carries this compound to all parts of the body to bring strength. We, as Christians, are admonished to , be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might (Ephesians 6:10). Weakness is just another attack of the devil. We are to be strong in our spirits, souls, and bodies.

Christians should not be spineless individuals, but strong in their witness for the Lord. Timidity and shyness can be overcome through Jesus by asking Him for His holy boldness. Many people suffer needlessly, unable to speak the things in their hearts, because of fear and timidity. Jesus wants them free. We are to be strong people, not weak individuals. Physically, we can also call upon the Lord to strengthen us when we are weary. We are not to walk in weakness but in the Lord’s strength. Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees (Isaiah 35:3). Weakness is another area in which we must resist and learn to claim the Lord’s strength. Of course, if we have been abusing our bodies, we need to correct our habits and get the proper rest and diet. However, if we have been doing this, sometimes the problem is a spiritual one and needs to be dealt with through prayer. When we are about the Lord’s business, He gives us the energy and vitality to accomplish those things that require our attention.

We must remember that when we give our lives to the Lord, all that we do becomes His business. We do not have to serve the Lord in the capacity of a minister to be in His service and claim His power. Average people become more than average when they become children of God. What is normal for the children of this world is not normal for the body of Christ. We have our values messed up because we have not looked to God’s Word for our "norm" or standard. It is not normal for a Christian to be weak, fearful, depressed, grieved, or sick. These things are abnormal for God’s people. However, so many of God’s people have accepted the world’s standards that they are walking far below their privileges.

Another thing that can cause people to be weak and sickly is for them to take the communion of the Lord without first examining themselves to see if any sin is present in their lives.

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep (1 Corinthians 11:24- 30).

The taking of communion is one of the church sacraments that represents the spiritual communion with our Lord. The reason we are to examine ourselves before we take the wine and the bread is so that there is nothing in our hearts that would prevent our communion with God. If we do not have the proper relationship with members of the Lord’s body, then we cannot have a proper relationship with God.

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also (1 John 4:20-21).

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If we have been taking of Christ’s blood (abiding in His Spirit) and eating his flesh (assimilating His Word), then we will have blessed communion with the Father. We shall walk in health and strength for they are the Lord’s blessing and promise. When we do not walk in the Lord we find our spiritual body becomes unhealthy, and we begin to have problems.

There is a blood disease called leukemia that attacks some people. This occurs when the white blood cells begin to multiply too rapidly. Under normal conditions man has only around 5,000 white blood cells for every 5,000,000 red blood cells per cubic millimeter of blood. When this condition changes drastically, it indicates sickness in the body. The disease of leukemia is caused by runaway cells that are cancerous and in rebellion. When we become rebellious toward God, we cause the same condition to occur in our spiritual lives. We find that spiritual cancer will eat away our life. We must ask the Lord to deliver us from all rebellion and submit to His will in order to remain healthy. The Bible says in 1 Samuel 15:23, For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubborness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee, We must yield to the Lord to remain spiritually and physically healthy. The Lord will minister to us the things we need to stay in proper spiritual condition.

Fed Through the Blood

Another purpose of the blood is to distribute the needed nutrients to all parts of the body. Because of what Jesus’ blood purchased for us, we also receive spiritual nutrients. The plasma of the blood carries the proteins, hormones, vitamins, enzymes and salts throughout the body. God feeds us through the Word by quickening (making alive) the right word to us. If we have need of comfort, He will show us the Scriptures in His Word that bring comfort. And, because the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, He will bring that to our spirits. When we are submitted to Him, we will be fed the proper word so that we may grow in Him. If we are not submitted, we can become imbalanced in our spiritual lives. The same is true in the physical body. If diabetes is present, too much blood sugar is produced and the body suffers because of this condition. The written Word of God must be balanced by the Spirit of God. The letter of the law will kill and bring death, but the Spirit brings life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 says, Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

says, .

When we get out of balance, we become spiritually ill. We must continually rely on Jesus to bring us the truth and the life. In the spiritual as well as the natural, we must not only have the proper diet, but the proper exercise also. Just knowing the Word is not enough; we must apply the Word for it to work. Many people become spiritual gluttons as they listen to good teachings over and over, but they do not apply the truth to their own lives. We must use what we hear. We are instructed not only to be hearers of the Word, but doers of the Word.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves (James 1:22).

By applying the blood of Jesus to our lives, we shall have His life.

Protection Through the Blood

Protection is another benefit of the blood. This does not mean that if we chant "the blood of Jesus" repeatedly we will not be harmed. Some people have made a fetish of Jesus’ blood by pleading the blood over themselves, over their houses, and sprinkling the blood here and there. It is not the chanting of "the blood of Jesus" that brings protection, but rather faith in what the blood of Jesus has done for us. Expressions such as "the devil cannot cross the blood line" are futile unless one’s faith is in the protection secured by the shed blood of Jesus on Calvary. It is what is behind the blood, not the mere speaking of the blood that brings protection. Of course, we can voice our faith in Jesus’ blood, and as we do so there is power in those words. We should, however, understand that mere speaking is not sufficient unless our words are backed by real faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

A beautiful type of this is found in Exodus 12:13, And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

When the Lord sent the plague to destroy the Egyptians because of their refusal to release Israel, He instructed His people to slay a lamb and place the blood on the upper and side doorposts of their houses, so that the death angel would not come into that house. Because they had faith in God and obeyed His command, all that were in those houses were spared.

Blood Covenant For Your Household

Today, our faith in the Lord's blood can bring salvation to our households too. If we have unsaved loved ones, we must remember to claim their souls and believe for their salvation, just as the first Passover was followed in Egypt. It was "a lamb for a house." One member of that household sprinkled the blood on the door and all beneath the roof were safe, for God's covenant was with them. That covenant is still good today.

Rahab is another beautiful type of the Lord saving an entire family by one woman's faith. By faith, Rahab put out the scarlet thread, which is a type of the blood of Christ, and saved all of her family (Joshua 2:18).

In the New Testament we also find an account of the Philippian jailer who cried out, , what must I do to be saved? Paul replied, , Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (Acts 16:30-31). Our families are promised redemption if we believe. The angel promised Cornelius that Peter would tell him words whereby he and all his house should be saved. Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved (Acts 11:14).

What are the conditions we must meet in order to make this "Blood Covenant" effective for our loved ones? First, we must consecrate our lives fully to God. Then we must take the matter to the Lord and put in a definite claim for the salvation of our kindred. As we claim them, let the Spirit of God lead in how we are to pray for each of them. Some are led "with strong crying and tears" (travail), others by fasting since it will break Satan's hold. For some a steady faith applied for their souls will bring them into the kingdom. If we are claiming our children, remember we must first , bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord (Ephesians 6:4). We must lay a good foundation by teaching them God's Word. If the children are grown and we have failed to do this because we were not walking in God's light at the time, we need to repent and ask God in His mercy to save them. We should not allow Satan to condemn us after we have repented, but trust the Lord to redeem those lost years. He is able, no matter how deep in sin those rebellious children have become.

Next, we must leave our loved ones in the hands of the Lord and trust Him to bring them in. We must not allow doubt and unbelief to plague us as we are trusting Jesus to bring them to salvation and deliverance. We must never fear that the Lord will bring evil upon them to save them. Our prayers of mercy, forgiveness and protection will keep them safe until they respond to the Holy Spirit. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44).

Another very important step is to bind Satan away from our loved ones. We must command the devil to release their hearts, minds, emotions and wills. We must exercise our spiritual authority over the enemy for their souls. After we have done these things, then we must stand firm and believe God through "thick and thin" until they come to Him. Our faith will not fail as long as we look to God for the answer. If they seem to go farther away from God after we have claimed them, we must keep our eyes off them and firmly fixed on the God of the Covenant, believing and praising Him for their salvation.

Here is a sample prayer that will give us an idea how to pray for loved ones who are lost:

"Father, I come believing that Your Word is true; I am claiming each and every member of my family for the kingdom of God. Lord, I ask that You forgive their sins and be merciful to them. Lord, keep Your hand over them and protect them from the enemy until they come to You. Father, 'woo and draw' them by Your Holy Spirit and convict them of their sins. Send them the right people to testify to them. Send the Word to them so that they will hear of Your love and grace. Now Lord, I speak to Satan and command him to loose his hold on their minds, hearts, wills and emotions. I declare he is a defeated foe in their lives and their souls are now claimed for the Lord. Lord, I trust You to deal with each of them in Your mercy, and believe that You will do a quick work in their lives. By faith I now believe they are in the family of God. Amen."

Now we must trust the goodness of God to lead them to repentance. Never believe Satan's lies that it might take a tragedy to get them to believe. Satan would like to destroy them with a tragedy so that they will never be saved. The work of the Holy Spirit and the goodness of God is what saves people, not tragedies. Or despiseth thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (Romans 2:4).

Overcoming Satan Through The Blood

We can overcome Satan in our lives and the lives of our loved ones by claiming the atoning work of Christ and His blood shed for us. Revelation 12:11 says, And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Our faith in what the blood of Jesus does for us will bring us the victory. We are never to walk in condemnation, but in the righteousness of Christ. When we are "born again," we then have Christ's righteousness, so There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). We can boldly come before the Lord washed clean in the blood of Jesus. We can have not only sweet fellowship, but also access to the power and authority of Christ. We can now speak the Word and it will come to pass because we ask in the name of Jesus. Revelation 12:11 says, And they overcame him (the devil), by the word of their testimony. This does not mean our individual testimonies of what the Lord has done for us, but rather our testimony of the Word of God. As we speak the words of the Old and New Testaments, we overcome the devil. God's Word will overcome any situation. We must allow the Word of the Lord to abide in us so that we can speak it forth and overcome. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you (John 15:7).

The last part of this verse in Revelation 12:11 says, , and they loved not their lives unto the death. Faith in the blood of Jesus, the Lamb, and speaking the Word of God are not enough to get the victory over Satan. We must also lay down our lives to the degree that we would be willing to die for Christ's sake. If we do not have this kind of commitment, then somewhere along the way we shall fail, no matter how strong we are in faith or the Word. A total commitment is required if we are to be an overcomer. A half-hearted commitment will fail us. We must be willing to go anywhere, do anything, and give up anything for the cause of Christ. Some of us have never been overcomers in the lesser issues of life, yet are claiming big things for God. The way to get the victory is to daily crucify our flesh and obey the Lord in the little things, then we will be able to overcome in bigger realms.

We may think we have made a total commitment and have crucified our flesh. However, a good check to see if we have "died to self" would be to read the following:

"Dying to Self"

When you are purposely set aside, rejected, forgotten, and hurt with the insult of oversight -- but your spirit sings because you are being counted worthy to suffer for Christ, that is "Dying to Self." When your advice is disregarded, your opinions ridiculed, and all manner of evil is spoken against you, and you refuse to let anger rise in your heart, or even defend yourself, but take it all with patient, loving silence, that is "dying to self." When you do not allow any disorder, irregularity or arrogance to come against your peace, when you are face to face with filth, waste, stupidity or spiritual pride, and endure it as Jesus endured it, that is "dying to self." When you are content with the location you live, the climate, the society, the solitude of the "backside of the desert," and are willing to have your plans changed or interrupted by the will of God at any moment, that is "dying to self." When you never care to have others know of your good works, and never refer to yourself in conversation, or even care to have anyone commend you, when you truly love to be the unknown, that is "dying to self." When you can see your brother prosper and have his needs met, and can honestly rejoice with him in the Spirit, and feel no envy, nor question God as to why your own needs are not being met, that is "dying to self." When you can receive correction and reproof, finding no rebellion or resentment rising up in your heart, that is "dying to self."

Are you "dead to self?" At this hour, the Holy Spirit would bring us to the cross. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:11).

Dying to the flesh means making choices, dying to our ways and living to the Lord's ways. The power of man's will can either make him an overcomer or send him to hell. If we set our will with the will of God, we can become that overcomer. We are promised many blessings as we follow the Lord, and on the other side of the coin there are curses for going our own way. We must choose. Isaiah 1:19-20 says, If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. The Lord wants to heal us, bless us and make us whole. The choice is ours. If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land (II Chronicles 7:14).

God is always looking for a willing mind and a perfect heart. He wants to use those who qualify, even as He used the great men and women of the Bible. We must choose and obey, even as Solomon did when he built the temple.

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. Take heed now; for the Lord hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it (I Chronicles 28:9-10).

Healing of the spirit, soul and body always begins with the choice to follow Jesus and the subsequent choices to continue to walk with Him. To receive complete wholeness, we must make a complete commitment, even as our Lord spoke the greatest commandment of God.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:37-40).

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Jesus, I already posted it above go and read, hopefully you will be wise enough to learn.

1) You never shed any light all you did was jump and shout "na lie" you weren't expecting to find what you asked for, you found it and couldn't believe it, and so you resorted to the same old thing, they corrupted the books, which you still have not proven.

Lol it's amazing how in the beginning of your post you said this.

Now if you accpet that, how can you not accept the next, because they show the same thing. Oh wait that's right, the thing you always said didn't make sense actually made sense, and that scared you. so you resorted to your usual "na lie"

Jesus prayed to his Father, our Father. The one who sent him, the one whom is not mutilated till date, since Jesus is his right hand.

Um it was the prophecy? and God doesn't abrogate (you recognise that don't you) his word.

No not all those who call themselves Christians believe, those are whom we call heretics. AND YES THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED IT TOO. Infact that is the sole reason why the Trinity had to be defined. You had those who stayed true to the teachings of Christ as passed down to us from the Apostles (Peter, James, John, Matthew, and more), and then there are those who just like you have little understanding of the teachings of Jesus and wanted to use the flesh to understand the teachings of Jesus, so those who stayed true to the teachings, decided to put an end to the madness and clearly define the Trinity as revealed to us from God himself through his Word.

Nope and he didn't have to, others did and he never rebuked them.

I promise this is like playing ring around the rosy or you just plainly have amnesia, you will do well to remember these next passages so as not to ask it again.

John 3:12-18

12 If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up

15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life

16 For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through him

18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned but whoever does not believe in him has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Go ahead dismiss it. Show proof that the books were not written at different times and at different places. I am waiting, I will put this to rest. Go ahead.

To your understanding there are, but to mine and billions of people's understanding there are no contradictions to the message of Jesus Christ.

Very sure. Infact you will do well to show me the message preached by Jesus and his apostles and then the ones preached by Paul, if they are different.

Go ahead, expose him.

Very well.

Roman Historian Tacitus wrote:

Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome

This was of the fire that broke out in A.D. 64 that Emperor Nero blamed the Christians for, even though he set the fire himself.

What can we make of this?

Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

Source: Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82

Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan, seeking advice as to how he should handle those guilty of being Christians:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind

What can we get from this?

This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity.

Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus

Source: Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199

Lucian:

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws

Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!

I sriously hope you took your time to read all that, if indeed you ruly are on the search for truth. If you really do want to gain knowledge you will do well to research these authors. Your motivation can be to disprove Christianity, yup that should be enough motivation for you. So go ahead, research and disprove Christianity.

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You may not have found it, but the rest of us have.

John 8: 24

For if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins

John 8:28

So Jesus said to them "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realise that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me."

John 8:57 - 58

57 So the Jews said to him, you ae not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said to them, "Amen, Amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be I AM"

The "I AM" Jesus uses to identify himself, is the I AM Moses uses to Identify God to the Isrealites, so that they may come to believe that he was sent from God.

Jesus (Son of God) is the Word of God in the flesh, now please tell me who came first, God or his Word?

The Father, Son, Spirit = God. The Son and the Spirit are the hands of the Father. You'll have to show me where God mutilated himself since his Son (hand) are not a part of him.

Again, I ask when did God mutilate himself.

I am so glad you brought this up.

John 1:1-4

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be

4 through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race

John 1:29-30

29 The next day he (John the Baptist) saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world.

30 He is the one of whom I said, "A man is coming after me who ranks ahead of me because he existed before me."

John was older than Jesus physically.

John 5:21 -23

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes.

22 Nor deos the Father judge anyone, but has given all judgment to his Son

23 so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him.

That was Jesus speaking.

I am also very glad you brought up that passage in John (John 17), you must have missed this part: John 17: 5 "Now glorify me Father, with you, with the glory that I had with you before the world began."

Yeah that was Jesus speaking too.

The only one who existed in he beginning was God, and now we know that Jesus existed in the beginning and that he will come to earth again in the end, even the muslims believe that he is still alive and that he was taken up to heaven, so what does that make him?

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I pointed out to you the stars and all you saw was the tip of my finger.

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If Jesus and God are one as the disciples are one then the apostles are a twelvity just like Godhead is a trinity. But wait! Are they just one of purpose, or are we to consider them one of Being. Because unity can be of purpose and it can be of being. Different people can be of one purpose, but only the same being can be at one with itself in it's being.

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@Lady

Thank God admitting the fact that he is subject to God and it shows that he couldnt be on the same level with God.

Says who?

Na lie. Dont give me that because I have shed light on that in one of threads. Jesus is God and he cried to himself for forsaken himself. He also prayed to himself to save him from death and said to himself that let your will be done. Common, enough of this blasphemy.

Na lie, I have rebuffed this in that thread on trinity, you have no explanation with regards to trinity

Do all christians believe in your trinity and did early christians believe in such? Did Jesus call himself God?

Na lie, proof please.

Na lie and do you care if we verify your above statement?

I thought the bible was inspired, so why the contradictions?

Are you sure of what you said about Paul?

Do you read your bible at all? I am sure we will soon expose Paul as we proceed.

Do you care to share that with me?

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@Davidylan

What is your question?

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Well said. You made my point, albeit reluctantly.

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@ lady:

I've never found any evidence to indicate that Jesus saw himself as God.

In fact just this morning I was reading from John where Jesus is praying to God "Sanctify them through thy truth; they word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. , And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one; I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." The Bible do not teach that Jesus was God in the flesh. In the Gospels, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God, not as God, and he frequently mentions and speaks with his Father, God.

Jesus is always very clear that he is not God. In fact he rebukes Peter when Peter calls him "good", saying "there is none good but the Father."

It was God who raised Jesus from the dead and exalted him to his right hand. Acts 2:32, 33 says: "This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God."

Also, the bible says that God has no beginning and no ending. Jesus had both, so he cant be God

Peace

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Keep quiet you noise maker. When i asked you to define sin from the standpoint of the quran what did you do besides hem, haw and try to insult your way out of your own embarrasment?

Now u're hear demanding an answer?

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while most of you are expecting such a none sense ideal read the read: when is Jesus God? When is He Christ? no one

among of you can give a well documented fact about this claimt do I have if you wish.

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Samba where are your own answers when we ask for them? Silly hypocrite

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Can you read ur post again and tell me if it makes sense to you?

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Because he is subject to the Father. He is the Word and can do nothing without the Father. But along with the Father he existed from the beginning. The Word/law spoken to the prophets is who Jesus the Christ is. He is the Word of God in the flesh. The law that God gave to man is whom we call Jesus. He is the right hand of God. Separating him from God the Father is mutilating God. Just as if I were to separate you from your right hand I will be mutilating you. But still just as your hand is a part of you, it cannot do anything without your command.

In simplest terms, the Father is "the brain" that sends out the command, and the Son is "the hand" that carries it out.

Just as your hand is subject to you, so is the Son subject to the Father, and just as your hand is not separate from you so is the Son not separate from the Father.

Your hand may be called Cayon's hand, but in essence it is still Cayon and no one else.

Except my grandmother or aunt is not the same as my mother in essence and in person. They have their own different identities. Jesus and the Father are the same. Ok in simplest terms. If Jesus was to be found and a DNA was to be done it would show God's DNA (note: I am not saying that God is physical, but I wanted to use that to show you that Jesus is God)

No, Christians refer to Jesus as God because he let us know so. When he was called God by his apostles he never disputed it and when he spoke he identified himself as God with the name for God.

He also let us know that he is he saviour of mankind.

And no the Christians did not corrupt the Bible, the books were written by different witnesses at different times and they still tell the same story. It would have been absolutely impossible for the "corruption" to take place, because transportation was not as advanced as it is today, and because all of the apostles were undergoing persecution, they were not staying in one place and it was higly difficult for them to be around each other all the time. Take St. John for example, he was imprisoned on the Island of Patmos, far far away from the other apostles. Yet he had the same message as the others.

As for St. Paul he did not contradict anything that the other apostles wrote, neither did he change anything, or enter into Christianity to destroy it from the inside. Don't forget that the Christians were already being killed for the same message that Paul preached. If he was trying to destroy it, the message being taught then won't be the same message today, but it is. It is impossible for Paul to have changed the message, because the message being taught is the message he persecuted. He didn't change it. The message changed him.

But it's not just the Bible that suppots it, the history of others support it. Those who hated Christianity spoke of the same message and they hated the message.

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@ lady:

Christians refer to Jesus as my Lord and my God b/c again

He said "Therefore no one can come to the Father except through Him (Jesus)." 

Let me break it down to you

Your mother left you with your aunt or grandmother when you were a baby

Even though you know you have a mother, you still say to people she (aunt/grandmother) is like a mother to me.

A de same ting wid Jesus.  Because he said "[i]Therefore no one can come to the Father except through Him.  We accept Him as our Father.  If Jesus is God, why did he say My God, My God, why have thou forsaken me? Why Jesus kept praying to God?

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John 20:28-29

Thomas answered and said "My Lord and My God"

Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed"

Tell me did Jesus correct Thomas and said No, I am not God?

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Lolol so you recognise yourself.

Honey that is the Christian belief, it has never been contested but by the heretics.

ALL DENOMINATIONS IN CHRISTIANITY BELIEVE IN THAT, EXCEPT THE HERETICS, AND THERE IS A CONSENSUS ON THE HERETICS, SO DEAR WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU?

Don't come quoting the Bible to me to prove yourself, even the devil, and muslims, and Jews quote the Bible. Come with something better, the truth, but then again you don't know it.

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@ify

In Mathew 16:15, Jesus put it this way, 'But who do you say that I am?' One of His disciples, Simon Peter, replied: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Tell me, did Jesus corrected Simon Peter and said No, I am God?

there's only one Master and thats God. God is Holy, He can't dwell in sin. In order for us to have a relationship with Him we must except Christ and overcome sin, He is to Holy to communictae with us as sinners. So, Jesus is like a bridge that connects the gap between us and God. Therefore no one can come to the Father except through Him (Jesus).

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the relative few that made sense have long been dealt with, what you have here as "issues" are simply recycled threads. It seems you've run out of gas.

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Whatever I may suffer from, I am not delusional. And you have failed to deal with any of the issues I have raised, my illness notwithstanding.

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Obsessive compulsive disorder. . . the only medical term that can explain Huxley's obsession with opening 1000 anti-Christian threads a minute.

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dadidylan abeg what's OCD?

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that's way too much emotion to expend on patients of OCD.

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looks like you got angry!

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Shebi Emmanuel = God with us?

Huxley why do you want to be persuaded by 'reason, logic and rationalism' by asking people to prove that their 'superstitious dogma' is right? It doesnt add up.

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No, am not angry. Just a bit sarcastic and patronising there.

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why art thou suddenly so angry?

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You cannot persuade a goat to become a cow no matter how much grass you feed it.

The bible says - by their fruits ye shall know them.

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Am waiting to be pursuaded by reason, logic and rationalism and NOT superstitious dogma.

Let me ask you - Why don't you believe Mohammed was a prophet of god? Why don't you believe in Sussicorn (Respect)?

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You dont want a "sensible answer", you already have a preconcieved mindset . . . were a rock to shout you still wouldnt believe.

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hahahah. Cann I expect a sensible response from you? Never!

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forget about Huxley, many of the responses here are so laughably false you can almost forgive huxley in his unbelief.

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@cayon,for crying out loud,u are wrong ! ! ! accept it

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I wonder why you guys are responding to Huxey's post or whatever he calls himself, FYI he isn't posting because he wants to know more because he obviously does but because he wants to ridicule himself not Christianity. let him continue to reel in his foolhardiness, someday he will understand

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Matthew 7:15,16

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

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No one cometh onto the Father [/b]but through [b]Me.

Should that be "No one cometh onto the Me but through Me." ?

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Thank you.

gladly, but first pay attention to what MissyB posted above in John.

Jesus is not just called the Son of God, but also the Word of God. He existed in the beginning as the Word of God, he is he law that was spoken through the prophets. HE IS ONE with the Father. The Word exists not without the Father, and through the Word the Father made his commands.

The Word and the Father may be separate in office but in essence are the same. God does not exist without his Word and the Word cannot exist without God. To separate them in essence is to dissect God.

However the Word is subject to the Father and does nothing unless the Father wills it.

So the Words out of the mouth of God is who we call Jesus the Christ (annointed one).

It's kinda like us humans we may have a thought, but only when we will it, will our words come out of our mouth and cary out our commands.

Your word is your own and your word is you. You are not separate from your word and neither is your word separated from you.

Huxley

Jesus does not stop being God in order to be Christ. Christ means annointed one. Neither does he stop being Christ to becoem God. Basically the Christ and God are the same.

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Huxley,you keep asking ques i consider whack but for the purpose of clearing sm people's opinion(not urs)about the topic,i'll answer.

The gospel of john begins with these words:In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the WORD WAS GOD.The same was in the begining with God,all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.(Jn 1:1-4).Chpter 14 says And the WORD was made FLESH and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory . . . . . . . .    .

Realli don't have time to school you in details but read carefully the above words written boldly in CAPITAL letters and draw conclusion frm it.(mtt 1:23)also tells us that JC's name was also to be EMMANUEL meaning GOD  WITH US.

Even "doubting"Thomas acknowledged that Jc was God(jn20:28) And thomas answered and said unto him"MY LORD MY GOD" if JC was not God ,y didn't he correct thomas for saying this?Instead JC answered and said "because thou hast seen me,thou hast believed;blessed are they that have not seen me and yet believed".

Jesus,God and Holyghost =same!!

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Where in the bible or in christian doctrine is this view opined?

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it depends on how d person reads d bible and understands it huxley

i believe he is d son of God,because wherever God spoke he called jesus his son

john3:16

matthew3:17

Even jesus himself recognised God as his father

no one comes to the father except through me

matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of[b] my Father[/b]: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

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@ huxley

Read your Bible. You would see that God and Jesus were never ever the same person. God was the Creator, JC his son and the Holy Ghost. Jesus did not become a part of the Holy Ghost until after the resurrection. also, JC didn't become one with God until he suffered death. He was praying to God the Father and the Holy Ghost. After death Jesus formed the blessed trinity, The Father, the son and the Holy Ghost

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I tot Jesus was the son and not the Father. But some christians believe that he is also god, the Father.

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he was talking about his father and not him

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