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Who Manufactured The Bible?

Who Manufactured or Published The Bible??

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@ttalk,

A cursory look of what Paul was saying in chapter 8 of the epistle of Romans was about the hope of believers in Christ and their prospects under tribulation.  That there is an impurity,deformity and infirmity that has come upon the creature by the fall of man.  That man is used or abused as instruments of sin.  Sin has been and is, the guilty cause of all the suffering that exists in the creation of God.  It has brought woes of earth; kindled the flames of hell and brought about the sufferings of man.  But there is hope for the saints of God in the new heaven and the new earth when everything will be restored to the new eternal perfect state.

We have today, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, droughts and earthquakes which kills thousands of people each year.  Multitudes endure crippling diseases, endless suffering and unspeakable pain.  Many non-Christians credit a heartless mother nature for giving us all this grief. Others, such as yourself blame God.

However, if God is responsible for all this heartache, that presents an interesting dilemma.  If God is an all-loving Father figure, as we are told, we seem to have three choices: 1) God is a tyrant, who gets His kicks from seeing kids die of Leukaemia; 2) God blew it when He made everything (that He is creative but incompetent); 3) Something between God and man is radically wrong.  These are our choices.  If you take time to consider the evidence you are most likely to lean toward option 3 except you have an ulterior motive.  Every neutral person reading this will admit that something between man and God is radically wrong, and the Bible tells us what it is.

There is a war going on.  We are told that mankind is an enemy of God in his mind through wicked works (Colossians 1:21).  That's not too hard to see.  Man is continually committing violent acts such as murder and molest, lying, stealing, etc., as the daily news confirms.  Man uses God's name as a curse word, while Mother Nature gets the glory for God's creation, unless there's a horrible disaster, then man calls that an "act of God."

The current War going on between me and your church members (petres 007, ttalk, Kunleoshob, chukwudi, Jagoon, TV01 etc) is due to the acronym of WAR which means [b]W[/b]e [b]A[/b]re [b]R[/b]ight.  This war is becaue we have the convictions that we are in the right.  However, a quick look at God's Law shows us who is right and who is wrong.  We, not God, are the guilty party.  If we want His blessings on our lives, we must make peace with Him, and that is possible only though faith in Jesus Christ.

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@abiodun815,

?? ?? ??

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Olaadegbu,

Your last post is tending towards making me declare the whole point I'm trying to make here. But I can't pour everything out on you just yet cos based on your posts, it's clear u do not get what i am saying and cannot accept what i am still yet to say. Understanding and accepting the points i'm trying to lay across is necessary for understanding what i am still yet to say.

But, anyway, i'll still try once more.

Here's a little summary of what i am trying to say:

Before God created man, he had a plan and purpose.

That plan and purpose were the driving force behind creating man and subjecting him to the way he has been and is.

Part of that plan brought about creating an evil being(the devil) for the purpose of deceiving and blindening man and preventing him from coming to the knowledge of the truth at the improper time.

Before creation,he also had concluded the way by which some chosen creation would see the light and be saved(Christ's sacrifice).

Nothing took God by surprise(not even Adam's fall) because all was just according to his purpose for creation.

These chosen creation for salvation are all those who come to the knowledge of the true gospel of Christ and are saved by it. And they were chosen for a purpose and that purpose was for the judgement and justification of the rest of the world.

The unchosen or the rest of the world are in the state they are in because they have been subjected that way by God.

Now, God's plan is to use these chosen saved ones to  bring about judgement and justification of the rest through Christ at the end of ages;

Rom 8:19-23

(19)  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

(21)  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

(22)  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

(23)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Verse 20 shows that God is the one that subjected humanity into what it is(he is responsible;there is no denying that fact).

Verse 21 shows the whole goal of 20; that humanity itself shall be delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God

verse 21 in a little way tells us what God's intention is at the end of the day; he is going to save all of humanity. Yes, all.

Now i know all your senses would be screaming "Nooo" at that last sentence because it completely denies all that u've ever known;not the word of God.

And i still think u are not ready yet to accept that fact based on what u've been posting. Many aren't.

But it takes understanding of all I've been saying to get this last point.

1Co 6:2

(2)  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

This is why we are chosen; because we are going to judge the world. How do u think this applies?

How also do u think this verse applies:

1Co 3:15

(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It's too early or too soon for me to be making these statements,but they are facts about this life, and cannot be understood unless very proper study is carried out on the word of God.

Conclusion: God subjected humanity to the way it is. God will still free this humanity from that bondage which it was subjected too.

Note: Humanity refers to all mankind; and currently that refers to the saved and unsaved.

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@ttalks,

The following verses of  Bible says that Salvation is possible for every person:

That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. -- John 3:15-17

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." -- 1 Timothy 2:4

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." -- 2 Peter 2:9

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.  And let him that hears say, Come.  And let him that is athirst come.  And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." -- Revelation 22:17

When you put these verses including the ones you quoted into proper perspective you will realise that God has called all men and all are free to accept or reject the call to Salvation.  All who do accept, He has foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that His Son might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Those who reject the plan, He has foreknown and predestinated to be consigned to eternal hell as an everlasting monument of His wrath on rebels (Isaiah 66:22-24; Rev.14:9-11). 

God has foreordained, determined and predestinated that all men be called to salvation, but that only the ones who accept become genuine called ones to be justified and glorified.  None are glorified, but those who, according to His purpose, meet the terms of the gospel.  Who they would be is left up to the individual.  All things depend upon meeting the conditions of the gospel (Romans 8:1-13, 28).

We can see that God has predestined all children of God to be adopted into His family, but who becomes a child of God is left up to each individual.  You cannot say on Judgment Day that "God made me do it" or that "murder, stealing, lying is in my genes" How dare you blame God for your sins.

The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

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Olaadegbu,

Read what the word of God says and settle this issue once and for all.

John 15:16(KJV)

(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:16(CEV)

(16) You did not choose me. I chose you and sent you out to produce fruit, the kind of fruit that will last. Then my Father will give you whatever you ask for in my name.

is it difficult to see? Is it so hard to see that you/me/any saved Christian did not choose Christ but that Christ chose us and that is why we are operating within his saving grace?

Mat 22:14(KJV)

(14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 22:14(BBE)

(14) For out of all to whom the good news has come, only a small number will get salvation.

Eph 1:4-5

(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 8:28-30(KJV)

(28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:28-30(CEV)

(28) We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose,

(29) and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.

(30) God then accepted the people he had already decided to choose, and he has shared his glory with them.

is it so hard for you to see that those of us that are being saved or are yet to be saved have been chosen from the beginning;before the foundation of the world?

It is because we have been chosen that we are saved; that we accepted the gospel of Christ.

It is because the others were not chosen from the beginning that they continually and will always continue to reject the gospel of Christ. It isn't because they want to reject it or chose to reject it; they can't accept it because they were not chosen.

That is the ireffutable fact that is being communicated by the word of God; not my words.

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@olaadegbu

That is what you don't understand, it is the christ in me that is making me fight against the corruption of his word by fraudsters who claim to be representing him. Christ did the same when those who love profiteering from religion [many of them abound today] wanted to turn the temple then to a "den of robbers" the amazing thing is that the crooks have graduated from profiteering outside the temple to establishing their own "churches" and profiteering right inside the "church" today.

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I could not say it any better than what Truth11 has explained to you. If you are humble you will go over what he said and make amends. As for the "corruption in the church" that you are worried about, my advise to you is to rather spend your time examining yourself if Christ is in you and leave the Judgment to Christ.

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If a man who is a just judge will not take the excuse that "God made me like this.  Sin is His fault!" then I see no reason why the Perfect righteous Judge will do any less.  If this won't work in a court, it certainly won't work on Judgment Day.  Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense.  We humans are responsible moral agents.  The "buck" stopped at Adam.  He tried to blame both God and Eve for his sin; Eve blamed the serpent while the serpent had no leg to stand on.  It is human nature to play the "blame game" but this will not work with God on the Judgment Day.

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I am not suprised you found it biblically sound after all he is finding a fault in kunleoshob's post. In as much as truth11 as given his point/opinion, he is not entirely correct. As you know evil thrives becos a few good men failed to speak up against it. I would not be a good christian if i see evil and corruption in the 'church' and i fail to speak up against it. Even if i am not a saint as we are all sinners. The important thing is to strive to do God's will as God is no respecter of persons especially your pastors. Also remember that when Jesus was here with us he constantly fought against the religious establishment who were doing exactly what our religious establishment are doing today, go figure it out.

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God cannot be accused of wrongdoing. He isn't man.

God is the owner of mankind and however he decides to handle mankind is his right and decision.

The fact is that God subjected the creation(humans) to vanity not by its will but by God's and God will still deliver the creation from that bondage. - Romans 8:19-21.

God making humans to be righteous and leaving some to be sinners is all part of his grand master plan to deliver humanity from its bondage of sin. at the end, we will all give glory to God for his means(which many might not understand or accept now).

As I said before,all our wills(the saved and unsaved) are influenced wills. They are wills flowing in the pattern of God's masterplan and not free(uninfluenced) wills.

And I keep seeing your(and some other people's ) use of the "pit of Hell", . . . . . . .Where's that in the bible if you please?

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@Olaadegbu

Evidently you don't eve know what it truly means to a christ focused christian, you think that it is by being religious and dogmatic, in case you don't know this was one of the constant battles christ fought with the religious establishment {the pharisees} when he was here with us. He came to set the captives free, unfortunately your ilks are trying to put people back in bondagethrough you false doctrines. Actually i pity you and weep for you as it is not easy to to come to the knowledge of truth having been thoroughly brain washed for years {i was in your shoes before} but i thank God for revelation and having the opportuinty to know the truth. My thread on scrutinizing one's belief system was directed at people like you, you have the passion but you are only mis-directed. I suggest you put your version and understanding of "christianity" under a christ focused test and see if it hold through. Christianity is not dogmatism you are to test all things and hold fast to what is true and not just what your pasotr tells you.

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My mistake. I mistook Truth11 for you. I was surprised when I saw Truth11's post which was biblically sound and wondered what had happened to him that he is now singing a new tune. Now I have discovered that he is not the same as ttalk so I apologise to Truth11 for mistaken him for you. I would have been surprised if you had been the one making such sound understanding of scriptures.

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Being born again is more important than paying your tithes because if you are not born again even your sacrificial giving or tithe would not be accepted by God.  The Bible says that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination how much more when he brings it with a wicked heart.

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I guess you meant to add a "not" in ur post above because if u didn't, then i haven't explained anything to Kunle.

he knows what it means to be born again; or at least, he knows what is required of a born again person.

This whole born again issue is quite vast so it takes constant study to really get the whole message about it.

The main thing to realize is simply the fact that being born again is not a destination but a journey. It requires constant devotion to the requirements of the new covenant to remain in the faith and to ultimately be saved at the end of the ages; when Christ comes again.

As it is, anyone who is born again isn't totally saved but is in the process of being completely saved. Hence the admonition to stand in the faith; so as to make your:

2Pe 1:10

(10) . . . . . . . . calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

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@olaadegbu

And if I may ask which are the other more important doctrines in the bible we relegated? You are the one who is guilty of ignoring the weightier matters of the law like love and instead focus on the obsolete aspects of it becos of your selfish greed and love for filthy lucre. One thing is certain though, God sees our hearts.

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@ttalk,

I am surprised that you have tried to explained the essense of being born again to kunleoshob, the fact that you attend the same organisation and he has remained adamant and not changed. Is it the fact that you have found a common ground of not paying tithes and relegated the more important doctrines of the Bible to the background? or has your convictions changed that you now speak the same language?

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@Sammyzacks: The bible is not authentic, because it lacks authenticity; if not tell me which is authentic here Jesus God said by the writers of the Books of revelations, or Act 4 verse 25/30 where Jesus is Servant? What about Mark12 Verse 29 where Jesus and his listeners, the Children of Israel all have One God Lord and the other side is the claim that Jesus and father are the same ting, when Jesus was on earth and Father was where father was, but definitely not on earth, ight where Jesus was!

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@olaadegbu

I don't know how you can confidently say that satan has been trying to corrupt the word of God thru the catholic church that God used to preserve it for us whilst you are actively in the business of actively corrupting his word daily on this forum. At least thousands of nairalanders can bear witness to that and the bible itself also testifies against you. My advice is you remove the log in your eyes b4 you remove the speck in the eye of others.

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See in the link below how Satan has been trying to corrupt the Word of God through the ages.  You will then not be surprised how he slipped it into the Septuagint.  Just show me one verse where Jesus or His Apostle quoted from the apocryphal books, the ones you mentioned earlier does not count as I have explained.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0031/0031_01.asp

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@Oladegbu

It might interest you to know that the Athanasian canon also included the so called apopcryphal books.

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It is too late for people like you to attempt to change history.The church of Alexandria was part of the Roman catholic church until the council of chalcedon in 451AD.It was only after that council thet they left the RCC.

Athanasius was a prominent member of the RCC of the fourth century,he alongside Arius were the key actors of the council of nicea convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine.He was buried in Rome,it was only sometime in the1970s that Pope JohnPaulii returned his body to the coptic church of Alexandria.

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GOD IS D GENERAL MANUFACTURER OF D BIBLE

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You still have to explain to me how Athanasius of Egypt became a Roman Catholic Bishop who practises what is contrary to the Canon he received from the early church fathers as I quoted below.  The RCC has added the apocrypal writings to the books that Athanasius received, so tell me how he is a Roman Catholic Bishop when he claims that they are heretics?  I thank God for the likes of Martin Luther and others who discovered the deception and proclaimed it as false.  See the true church as opposed to the RCC that you think is the true church in the links below.

http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/original-church.html

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@Oladegbu

These Athanasius that you keep on mentioning was a Roman catholic Bishop of Alexandria .He is was that defended the dogma of the trinity at the council of nicea

Before the synod of hippo the books of Revelation,Hebrew,james 1-3 john ,1-2 peter were regarded as apocryphals .The authorship of the lletter to the hebrews is still disputed even to this present day.At the time of the reformation Martin luther tried in vain to remove this bboks especially those of Revelation and James.

The truth would always remain truthe truth no matter how you hate it.Your hatred willcanot bring down the RCC.That is the true church left behind by the Apostles .

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You claimed peter was never in rome st ignatius of antioch on his way to matyrdom wrote to the roman christians this words "I do not order you as peter and paul did ,they wer apostles:i am but a condemmed man

The early christian writer tertullian in his write up also stated that peter and Paul both died in rome.You cannot restrict your sources to the 76 canonised books ,since so many other books were written even by people who met the apostles.

All the christians of the first to fourth century never doubted that peter was in rome. A ctually Peter was first bishop of antioch before comming to rome.If he had died as bishop of antioch i can assure you that antioch would have been the capital of RCC today.

Paul himself acknoleged that peter was among the church leaders when he wrote in galatians 2:9

"In fact James ,Peter and John who were known as PILLARS of the church recognised the gift God had given me and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers

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The Bible was not manufactured. It has many writers but one author. Holy men wrote and the were inspired by the Holy Ghost. It was writted by the Holy Spirit and reveals JESUS

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Quote from: chukwudi44 on April 11, 2009, 06:57 PM

God has in His providence preserved the 66 books of the Scriptures in what we have in the Holy Bible. Matthew 2:23 that you quoted said that as it was "spoken," not written by the prophets, for no prophet recorded this statement until Matthew by divine inspiration did. Matthew's mention of the city of Nazareth combined the concepts of lowliness and the wordplay on a messianic title. The Hebrew word netzer means a branch, sprout or shoot was related to the messianic title in Isaiah 11:1.

Likewise, not all Jewish religious literature was considered part of the list of inspired books. For example, the book of Jasher existed (Jos.10:13) as did the book of the Wars of the Lord (Num.21:14) and others (1Kings 11:41). These books did not survive the centuries, so we don't know their contents but what is important is that God has preserved by His holy prophets and apostles His inspired words for our learning of the historical facts that will work towards our salvation and perfection in righteousness

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Jesus did not have to go to the cross and die for us just for us to be religious or to follow religious organisations, as we can do those things by our own efforts but He came and died to seek and to save the lost and only after we have appropriated His shed blood for the forgiveness of our past sins and received His imputed and imparted righteousness which only comes by faith in Jesus Christ, and only after this can we receive the grace to live in the newness of life and by this grace do the works of righteousness that you quoted in the verse above. Withhout this we will not be different than the religious Pharisees and Saducees who only practised outward righteousness but were inwardly full of dead men's bones. They were only half baked, having a form of godliness but denying the power of it.

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@ OLAADEGBU

See what happens when you dump copy and paste into the bin of forgetfulness?

You can actually make sense sometimes.

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Quote from chukwudi44: on: April 10, 2009, 02:50 PM  

The word pope derived from the Latin papa which means 'father' is regarded by you as the vicar of Christ on earth, taking the place of Jesus Christ in the world.  You view the pope as the ruler of the world and supreme over all, this is what the RCC adherents are made to believe.

It is interesting to know that the evil emperor Phocas in A.D. 604 who first used and applied the title of 'pope' to Gregory I.  While Gregory established the power and supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, he refused to accept the title 'pope', but a successor, Boniface III, accepted it and it has been used ever since to describe the Bishop of Rome.  Vatican I in 1870 claimed supreme authority and infallibility for the pope in all aspects of faith and morals, particularly when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, officially.  Vatican II, in its decree on the constitution of the church called the Lumen Gentium, modified the authority of the pope somewhow, claiming that when the bishops as successors of the apostles act together to define questions of faith and morals they thus teach infallibly.  I am happy to know that not all RCC members believe this, such as Hans Kung, who are questioning this fallacy.

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[li]Our Lord Jesus Christ has warned us not to call any man 'father', that is in a spiritual context, such as taking the place of our Father in heaven or even taking the place of Christ. [/li]

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[li]The position of a pope as an overlord ruling over all believers is forbidden in the Scripture by Peter who you erroneously claim is your first pope, in  1 Peter 5:3

"Neither as being lords over God's Heritage, but being ensamples to the flock" [/li]

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[li]Concerning the apostolic succession of bishops, the Bible teaches: first, the uniqueness of the apostles as eyewitnesses of the resurrection (Acts 1:21-22); Second, apostolic succession means believing and teaching only what the Lord and the original apostles taught. The test is doctrinal and biblical (Gal.1:8-9; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Tim. 6:3-5, 2 Tim.1:13-14). [/li]

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The church of God, where two or three people gather together in the name of Jesus, is moving on, strong as ever, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, be they false religions, cults and the evolutionary bandwagon (or secular humanists), the more we are persecuted and matyred the stronger we become until Jesus comes for His bride in the first phase of His second coming.

Quote from chukwudi44: on: April 10, 2009, 02:50 PM

This is what Athanasius wrote in his letter:

"As the heretics are quoting apocryphal writings, an evil which was rife even as early as when St. Luke wrote his gospel, therefore I have thought good to set forth clearly what books have been received by us through tradition as belonging to the Canon, and which we believe to be divine.  [Then follows the books of the Old Testament] Of the New Testament these are the books . . . [then follows the 27 books of our New Testament, and no more].  These are the fountains of salvation, that whoever thirsts, may be satisfied by the eloquence which is in them.  In them alone is set forth the doctrine of piety.  Let no one add to them, nor take anything from them."

-- From the Festal Epistle of Athanasius XXXIX.  [i]Translated in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. IV. p. 551-552.

Now tell me who added to what Athanasius received from the early church fathers and I will tell you who the heretics are.

Quote from chukwudi44: on: April 10, 2009, 02:50 PM

The onus is on you to use Biblical sources to prove that the papacy started from Peter and the popes that succeeded him.  As far as I am concerned, there is little or no evidence that Peter ever went to Rome nor Clement referred to by Paul was the only bishop at Rome at the time of his writing.  The problem you guys have is the twisting and misunderstanding of Matthew 16:13-19 where you wrongly claim that Christ appointed Peter as the first pope and Bishop of Rome.

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church . . . "

As I have explained in the other thread I will endeavour to take another angle to explain these verses.  While the Greek word 'Peter' here is masculine (Petros) and refers to a person, the word 'rock' (Petra) is feminine, not referring to Peter but to his confession that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God"(verse 16).  Christ does not build His church upon a man but on the truth that Peter confessed (1 Cor. 3:11; Eph.2:20).

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt.16:19).

According to verses 1 and 18 in Matthew 18 this authority was given to all the disciples, not only to Peter.  Peter was as a representative of all the apostles.  When Jesus spoke to Peter He was speaking to all the apostles.  The authority our Lord speaks of here is that of opening the kingdom of heaven to people through the preaching of the gospel.  This was not an absolute power to exclude or admit people to heaven but a declarative power only, that is, authority to proclaim the conditions on which God is prepared to forgive and save sinners.  In Acts 2:14-42, especially vs 21 Peter did this through preaching, and later  in Acts 10:34-43 he had the privilege of preaching the same gospel to Cornelius, thus opening the doors to the Gentiles, even though Paul became the apostle to the Christian Gentiles while Peter was an apostles to the Christian Jews in diaspora and James presided at Jerusalem.  Such authority, or keys, was given to all the apostles, then to others like evangelists and pastors as you can see in the cases of Philip and others.

Quote from chukwudi44: on: April 10, 2009, 02:50 PM

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[li]Peter nowhere claims in the Bible to be a bishop or pope in Rome (1Pet.1:1; 5:1-3; Acts 10:25-26).[/li]

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[li]Paul was called to be an apostle independently of Peter (see Galatians 1) and that Peter was not more important than Paul is evident in 2 Cor. 12:11 and Galatians 2:7,11-14.  Again it was not Peter but James who chaired the church in Jerusalem in Acts 15.[/li]

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[li]There is no evidence that Peter was ever in Rome, and even Paul's letter to the Romans does not include any reference at all to Peter, which would have been strange if Peter was a bishop there.[/li]

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[li]Neither are the words, 'Strengthen your brothers,' in Luke 22:31-32 unique to Peter alone, as the Vatican teaches.  Luke uses the words to describe Paul's work in Acts 14:22; 15:32, 41; 18:23.[/li]

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[li]Similarly, the command to "feed the flock" in John 21:15-17 was not exclusive to Peter, for Paul uses one of the words in describing the work of elders at Ephesus in Acts 20:28.[/li]

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I have to admit that I didn't read all of your drivel. I got as far as the quote above and felt I had to comment.

"Not everyone should interpret the Bible"?

Hang on. This is God's word you're talking about here. Yet you're saying that God's word is not free to all? You're saying that God's word is only for an elite?

It only goes to show how peurile and brain-washed you really are if you think that only an exclusive group of people has the right to examine God's word.

"the members of the church cannot apply their own personal opinions"?

You must be force-fed other people's opinions? You can't make your own mind up?

And you wonder why people look upon the Catholic church with such disdain.

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Lol, no it is not the Pope and his Cardinals that make up the Church alone. It is the Baptised and confirmed Christians that make up the Church. Maybe I worded it wrongly originally but to make it clear, when I say it is the Church that has the authority to interpret the Scriptures, I mean that me as a lay person does not have the authority to interpret, even a regular doesn't have the authority to put his own interpretations. The interpretation is left for the magisterium. The magisterium is like the Supreme Court Justices of the U.S. their job is to interpret not rewrite but to interpret. The Pope will be like the President I guess.

Haha no they are not the same ones that go about having sex, and it is a shame that the 98% of good clergy out there are being affected by the 2% of those that couldn't stay true to their vows. It is also shameful that the mass population of the world would single out a set of people to condemn and attribute to them such evil when the majority doesn't lie with them. Studies already show that other sects actually have a higher % of sexual abuse within them both religious and not.

But I as a Catholic accept the bad as the good, as Christ already told us there would be those that are bad and those that are good. It is also illogical for people to say that The Church engages in such acts, when that would be equivalent to them saying that ALL fathers are molesters and rapists just because some of them do so to their children or others. Anyway, whatever with that, it isn't my point.

They are not a better christian, there is no such thing as a better christian, and it is not the merit of the christian that gets them to interpret the Bible infallibly, it is the promise of Christ "that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" in reference to his Church, meaning that no matter what happens and believe me all will happen, the Church will continue to stand and because of Christ's promise "that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth" in reference to his Church, that the Church can infallibly interpret the scriptures. WHy is it that it rests with the magisterium? Because not just anyone can walk up from the street and claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit to infallibly interpret scripture. All decisions centering on faith and morals by the Church are guided by the Holy Spirit, it however doesn't mean that those who interpret scripture are free from error in their personal behavioral practices. It just means that they cannot teach you wrong. And they can do this because of the unbroken succession from the apostles and as shown in the Bible that no one was sent to preach without hands being laid on them by the apostles.

I am glad you agree that the truth is one, and the truth will lie somewhere. Unfortunately along with the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, there lies several other churches by men. Unfortunately those who follow those churches do not see that the devil is happy that they are away from God's Church.

A Catholic does not expect you to lump us along with the Protestant Christians, for they do not hold the truth and it is very clear as they cannot agree on anything, even if you do not believe in God, it is clear to see that the truth of Christianity does not lie with the various protestant churches as they all disagree with each other. I as a Catholic definitely do not expect you to believe me, but I do expect you to believe God, and to believe that while he has his truth on earth there are those who perpetrate as truth.

I also do not expect you to believe all christians, but I do expect you to discern for yourself the truth and to do so logically and fairly. I was a protestant and I didn't really care for God not did I really care for the Catholic Church, but when I started taking my life seriously, I did research, and it was really difficult for me because there was too many information out there and most of them contradicted themselves, but there was a place where no matter where I went, on their websites and in person, the story is always the same, and that was in the Catholic Church. I knew truth lay somewhere, so I pursued it, I also know truth uses logic and that it won't chuck it up to you being silly if you do not understand or do not agree, I also knew that truth wouldn't contradict itself, and so it took me many years to actually understand and finally it clicked. I studied Jewish history, studied christian history, and was adamant about understanding the Bible as it is. I finally gave in that God is just who He is, and that the Catholic Church is His Church, and it made sense. What didn't make sense before finally made sense, hmmm.

Actually writing this, I thought of C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton, try reading their books and life story just for fun.

You know I keep hearing about that, and yet I have not met a credible historian who would agree with you, maybe you can introduce me to one. Thanks.

Witch burnings?

hmm are you completely sure that it was done by the Catholic church?

Read the below link and tell me what you got from it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt

lolol, oh mazaje, ur funny, so u've been paying attention to the protestants posts eh, good for you. Unfortunately it wasn't because of Martin Luther that I have the Bible in my home. Infact even after Martin Luther, most christians didn't have Bibles in their homes, Protestants and Catholics alike. So it wasn't because the Church told people not to buy the Bible, it is because people couldn't afford the Bible. Those who could, owned the Bible, and it wasn't until the 1900s that people started owning Bibles in their own homes.

Mazaje if you are going to pick up anything from them at least make sure that it is the truth.

I can honestly say I do not know, because I am not in his head, and I am not so great that I can understand everything he does. But I will say this, it was a part of his plan and it was leading up to what he initially wants. He gave many prophecies about the coming messiah, he didn't give it all at once. Maybe it's because he knew they wouldn't accept him or believe him.

You also stated this question based on the assumption that love means you won't deliver justice to those who act wrongly. It's like saying a parent shouldn't discipline their child because they love them. When infact it is because of love that they do. So whatever reason God saw it fit to destory them, he did, not out of hatred, but out of love. Why can't a drunkard preach to them?

That is my point, they do not have the authority. That is what arises when people assume authority that was never given to them.

Both the Church Fathers and the Bible tells of that. As in any Kingdom especially David's Kingdom that Jesus is King of, the King gave to his prime minister his ring, and that ring is what gives the prime minister the Keys to the Kingdom, meaning the prime minister can bind and loose. We see these examples in the OT.

In the book of Esther the Prime minister gives the decree that is binding, that even the King cannot overturn. Aman, the Prime Minister decrees that on a certain date the Jews would be killed. Esther finally did her thing as a woman, and her cousin Mordecai was now appointed Prime Minister over the Kingdom and in so giving him the Keys to the Kingdom, and Mordecai was able to give the decree that all Jews should fight for their lives. Notice that even after the death of Aman and appointment of Mordecai, the decree made by Aman could not be overturned not even by the King himself (read the story of Esther for this)

Now we go to the book of Isaiah, In Isaiah 22:20-22 we see God telling Shebna, master of the Palace, notice that Shebna isn't the King, but a master of the Palace, the Prime Minister, and tells shebna that he will give Shebna's robe, sash, and authority to Eliakin, and then tells Shebna that Eliakin will be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of judah, notice he said father. Pope is actually the english variation of Papa which means father in latin or italian, so when they ask is Pope in the Bible, it actually really is. Anyway, back to the point, God then goes on to say he will place the key to the House of David (kingdom) on Eliakin's shoulder, an whenhe opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.

Now some people will say only Jesus can shut and open, but that makes no sense because the key is given to a prime minister and not a king, and Jesus is a King in his own right.

God's Kingdom is not of this world, and therefore cannot be placed here, and because I haven't been there, I cannot give you a location, however becuse it is eternal it has no fixed location, location is bound to time and space, and God's kingdom isn't. God's kingdom has exists in eternity and isn't bound to time.

Yes the kingdom is different from the world. I would assume since it is not of the world.

No book was considered scripture prior to the definition of the canon, it is the definition of the canon that attributes the title scripture to books. They were moral readings, and just that. The only other books that were actual scripture were those in the OT, and they all exist in the Original Canon, the Vulgate, the Catholic Bible.

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mazaje, he did exactly just that. Unfortunately people think that they themselves should be the interpreters. Not everyone should interpret the Bible. That's why the Lord left his Church on earth to be the guiding light. The authority for interpreting the Bible lies in the Church, the members of the Church cannot apply their own personal opinions. The reason u have ppl misinterpreting the Bible is because they are not supposed to be interpreting it in the first place. That's why there are divisions in Christianity. They don't trust God to appoint people to interpret the Bible infallibly. If God appointed and inspired men to write the Bible, doesn't it make sense that he will appoint and inspire men to interpret the Bible?

Just like the U.S. Constitution cannot be interpreted by the common man, but by appointed and seasoned lawyers/jusges: the Supreme Court Justice; the Bible cannot be interpreted by any random person who picks it up.

Have you noticed how all the protestants put their own interpretation on it and they all claim to be telling the truth, but they're truth differs?

Mazaje, does truth have different stories? Or is truth just one? How would you describe truth?

Seriously think about all the discussions you have read on nairaland, have you noticed that they all interpret the same passages differently and they all claim that their interpretations are the truth? Doesn't that tell one something? These people are not supposed to be interpreting the Bible.

and it shouldn't be so, but because man hates authority and because man thinks he's perfect, he goes and does whatever and changes the Word to fit what he thinks is right. Rather than trying to understand the scripture he clings to, he vows to make the scriptures change and pass it off as saying he is interpreting the scriptures properly.

The Bible was unchanged for 1500 years, there was no trouble like this. The only trouble arose from those who did not want to believe in the Bible. That is something different, but for ppl who say they do believe in the Bible, but refuse to accept books that were defined as scripture and were never challenged for 1500 yrs, that baffles me. They refuse to accept the authority of the people who wrote and defined the scripture that they would die for. After Martin Luther changed the Bible what happened? Different denominations sprang up. Even those that agreed with Luther still differed with him, and when they refused to accept what he said, guess what they did? They went ahead and watered down the Bible again, they chose what they wanted to believe and continued, and that has been the pattern since. That's why amongst them, you will see one who doesn't agree with the teachings of a pastor and then jump to the other pastor's church, and then when that pastor says something they don't like, they will leave there and go to another one's church, and the cycle continues. Doesn't that say that they don't want to hear what God wants to say, but that they want to hear what they want to hear?

They pick what they want from the Bible and run with it, and contradict themselves all the time, It's funny some of the ppl on NL have interpreted the same verse in different ways. The verse that they interpreted last year will have a different interpretation from them again this year and they will swear on their ancestors' grave that they are telling the truth. They swore that last year too.

It makes no sense.

Because God himself came down and relayed the last message. All the other prophets testified to his coming. The whole point of him coming was to show humanity the actual way to go. That's why what we thought was up was actually really down and what we thought was left was actually really right. What we think is wisdom is actually foolishness. Adam and Eve in Genesis were told by the devil that if they ate of the fruit of the tree they would gain wisdom like the gods, but infact they already had that wisdom and didn't know it. So while they thought they were getting life and wisdom, they were really getting death and foolishness, and that's the key to understanding everything from then on in the Bible. That explains why we needed to have saviour in the first place, why God had to choose a people to set his plan in mothion. So God realising that man cannot remove sins from the world on his own merit, he fashioned himself as a man to do so. That is why Jesus is God, because no man born of a woman and man can take on all the sins (hatred, greed, lust, murder, pride, sloth, etc) on himself, no man can do so, The only one with the perfect love to be able to carry on those sins without succumbing to hate those who put those sins on him, is God, and that's why God had to do it. So God needed to show to us how to get back to the way he initially created us. So he taught us life principles, principles that if applied with love and fully, love for God and love for our fellow man, will defeat any war, any disease, any poverty that the devil can insert to the world. If people started loving their enemies and started exercising patience, and stopped looking for revenge we would hardly have any killings, steakings and so on. If people started exercising self-control we would hardly have aborted babies, children abandoned by patience, no molest and so on. If people starte accepting responsibilities for their actions we would hardly need taxes jo. But people don't. And that is the message of Christ. Life principles, even when we don't sometimes understand them if practiced fully and with love eradicates the world's problems. But for him to do so, he ahd to turn things upside down. The devil in the garden turned things upside down and made us think that right was left, and all. So God turned it around, and made left left and right right. But we are so far gone that what we think left is is not what Christ tells us left is. So that leads us to why he had to suffer and die. For example. A lot of these pastors give the prosperity preaching, and tell that suffering isn't the way to go, but Christ preaches suffering and poverty as the way to get to heaven, now don't mistake poverty to mean that those who are in poverty in the world today are all going to heaven, no that is not the poverty he preached about. Poverty means not attaching yourself to the things of this world, you have just what you need, but are still willing to give it to another who doesn't Poverty means not being attached to mercedes benz even if u have one, it means if that benz were to go away and if u were to loose all ur money, u wouldn't be hurt, u wouldn't think ur life is over, u would still find life and beauty in everything u see, I hope I was clear in explaining poverty. Christ and his apostles preached crucifixion, it doesn't mean u have to go hang urself on the cross o, lol. They preached suffering, suffering as in don't be attached to things in this world that pass away. It means instead of trying to fight those who hurt u accept their hurt and love them back for it, remember the principle of love ur enemies. It means accepting all the hurts that this world would throw at u because they do not understand u, accept all the insults that even those who claim to be true believers would throw at u, accept it all and use it for God's glory. So while we look at suffering as something to detest, it isn't, because as the devil showed us that throw lack of self-control, through hatred, through pride and all vices we have life. God shows us that it is through humility, through patience, through love, that we have life.

So you may see someone on the street or you may listen to someone speak about God and you may see them embrace the simple life, the solitary life, the sacrificial life, do not for one second think that they are in suffering as u would define suffering, they are truly at peace. You may call them foolish or deluded, but at the end of the day, they are the ones with the angels at their side.

The easy road leads to destruction, the hard road leads to life. What is up is really down, what is down is really up.

Unfortunately most pastors don't preach it, and from their preaching they have led many souls to destruction.

There is no need for a prophet, his plan has been fulfilled. I hope you saw your answer in my dissertation, lol. Sorry for the dissertation btw.

oh mazaje, God never dictated, he doesn't dictate, he inspired, do u know what it means for someone to be inspired? I don't mean for someone to be an inspiration, no i mean for someone to be inspired.

Because God has an established kingdom, and like any King, he will have his court members, and yes his prime minister the Pope. That's another discussion for later.

Not many who tell us that they are the Lord's are actually the Lord's. He did tell us that many will call him Lord but they did nothing of and for the Lord.

There are also many whose prayers have been answered, what about them? You will hardly believe them because you do not want to believe. It is easier to point out that there are those whose prayers haven't been answered, and it is easier for you to do a survey or to carry out some experiment on it, however have u also looked at the other side? Have you also checked for those whose prayers have been answered and have you also surveyed them or done some form of experiment for them? Or have you made up your mind that they will be deluded, even those who you would have adored as philosophers and professors and scientists of the greates caliber, did they all of a sudden become deluded.

Have u been fair at all, or have u sought to pick out what u want, and discarded the other side of the story?

there are also so many christians that have asked and had everything given to them, so many have sought and have found. But here's the thing mazaje, rather than being fair, u have attributed delusion to everyone that comes and says their prayers have been answered. Is that fairness at all?

A lot of people pray without believing, most are doing it to test and see if God will actually answer their prayers. A lot of them have heard what God has done in someone else's life, and decide to ask God too. They don't necessarily do it, because they believe, they do it because they're testing God. God isn't silly he isn't deluded and isn't foolish, he knows when someone is trying to test him, and he will leave them be to their delusions.

A lot also pray without faith, they do it jsut because someone says do it.

A lot also loose patience, we don't always get what we want at the time we want it. And for that people curse God. Instead of trusting that he will give us what we need at the right time, we say he isn't real because he didn't reply then. When you loose faith and patience, God will loose you too.

Most of the time we ask for what isn't good for us. For example, a lot of women pray for a husband, rather than praying for God to send them their own husband or the right husband, they pray for God to send them the particular husband they have their eyes set on. That person may not be the right person for them. So when they don't get that one they say God didn't answer their prayers.

ALSO WE EXPECT GOD TO DO FOR US, BUT WE ARE UNWILLING TO DO FOR GOD. WE ENTER INTO A COVENANT WITH GOD, AND FOR HIM TO FULFILL HIS PROMISES WE ALSO HAVE TO FULFILL OUR PROMISES. We want God to deliver us from alcoholism yet we're not willing to put the bottle down or stay away from bars.

Moses never asked God to reconsider because it wasn't a good thing. Moses asked God to reconsider because of mercy and love. Moses interceeded on behalf of those people. Those who've found favor with God can beseech God on our behalf. Abraham too interceeded for sodom and gomorah.

God saved the good people and destroyed the city.

How would God have us understand him if he doesn't work through man. If he doesn't use what we know what we understand, how would we understand him. Man can be fallible, but man can also speak the truth. If a murderer were to say that murder is wrong, does the fact that he's a murderer make his statement any less true?

Because God is not about selfishness. He is about community. He himself is a community, Father, Son, Holy Ghost and to be like him we have to be in a community. If God were to appear to everyone and say ok this is what it is, we wouldn't have the need to commune together and rely on each other, we would all do our own thing, and that is called selfishness.

But see God himself did come down and told us what to do and he did it clear as day, but guess what man insulted him, crucified him. As long as man doesn't want to accept God, as long as man doesn't want to accept truth, it doesn't matter if God were to come down from heaven right now. If you mazaje do not want to accept God, even if he were to show up to your room and tell you clear as day that he is God, you won't accept him. Infact you would check yourself into a hospital to make sure you are not running mad. If you won't accept that those who've spoken to God or heard from him are sane, you won't accept that you are sane if God were to appear to you.

Nope it just means you are where you are. No two person is the same, our fingerprints are unique to us and so is our faith. Just because u do not believe right now, doesn't mean u are insane. If that's the case I too must have been insane, and countless others must have been insane.

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Even the atheist (huxley, banom, mazaje et al) are all striving seriously hard to know and study the bible , lol

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Truth11, can u throw more light on the King James Version of d Bible.

Thanks

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this is not true. . . .

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Truth11, can u throw more light on the King James Version of d Bible.

Thanks

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Mazaje: I need not quote any of ur point, by the way why wld u hate the Holy Bible containing the words with which u were created and he who created u, wen even the so called muslims (most of em') are secretly strivin to know the Bible.

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Mazaje: I need not quote any of ur point, by the way why wld u hate the Holy Bible containing the words with which u were created and he who created u, wen even the so called muslims (most of em') are secretly strivin to know the Bible.

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Mazaje: Are you serious about God of the Bible or just interested in picking up controversies. Have you already concluded negatively about Jesus and triune God of the Bible?

I would lovingly advice you put all your questions directly to the author (pray to Jesus in a quite place and reverently), it will serve two purposes: 1) you will come to know that he lives 2)he is the one to satisfy all such queries, because he decided to do what he thought best and is best placed to provide the answers and he said "ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and you shall find. . . ".

another thing, the name of the God of the Bible is "I AM WHO I AM" and he doesnt take advice from anybody, and more so from his creation on what, when and how to do what he likes! hope that is ok with you!

He is omnipotent God, and he has revealed himself to all creation and he will prove it on the day of the judgement. The question should not be "whether his actions and words were right or wrong", it should rather be "how can I be saved and receive this God".

How can a weak man question the powers of God and his working?!! Man is so weak, helpless and clueless that he cant even have dominion over his own body for which he lives and can even die for it. God said you cant even turn your grey hair into black and black hair into grey. Can you do this simple exercise with all human scientific advancements available to you?

I would say any person who would read the Bible quitely, reverently and pray to God and his son Jesus, will be relieved from this burden of confusion which you and scores of others are carrying daily on their shoulders. I too had this burden of sin and confusion sometime ago, but I am free, praise God!

Blessings,

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if the bible were the direct words of an omnipotent god then he would inspire the translators of the bible in the same manner that he would inspire the original writers? i say this because there are a lot of mistranslations, mistakes,and editing that have happened to make the english bible different in some places and passages from the original text. if the bible is the word of an omnipotent being then why would there be more than one english language version? there are over 88 different english translations of the bible. the translation should really be as important as the original text since the vast majority of people cannot read the language in which the bible was originally written.you would think that an omnipotent being would have done it in a similar to the way he presented the ten commandments, by calling one of his prophets (why havent we had any of them in the past 2000 years?) up to a mountain and just given it to him to give to the people with a bunch of thunder and lightning.Instead, he waited at least several thousand years of humanity allowing certain unknown scribes to put stuff down in scrolls here and there.then several hundred years after sending himself down to sacrifice himself, he inspires constantinople to convene a council to put it all together. why not just have one scribe writing, writing, writing, since god was essentially just dictating? why a council voting on what is to be included? was it always a unanimous vote? otherwise the ones who voted for books that didnt make it were not "inspired." so again why a council?

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The truth that most people that claim to be born again don't even understand the bible, they are mostly selfish and self centerd and christ is NOT in them. They claim to love God yet thet never keep his greatest commandment which is to love others. Even the pastors that champion this born again slogan are not christ like as they would rather keep the church collections for themselves under the guise of (runnin the church) instead of giving it to the poor and needy(showing love) as directed in the bible. 2corinthians 9, Acts 4:32-35

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There's your problem.

Children can't always understand what they are reading. They are also susceptible to other peoples' definitions. They can easily be moulded by others who may not have their best intentions in mind.

Surely it's better to approach with a critical but open mind?

Being born again is not the be-all and end-all. In some case you can swap the word "born" for "dead". Anyone can say that they are born again yet not really understand what it entails.

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@ogaga4luv, what has the Holy Bible done to u to dserve all this ur critics, remember there is no condemnation that is acceptable b4 d Lord.

Why do u hate the Bible with much passion, this is the same word that wold judge evry human being very soon.

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Bastage, do u hate the Bible or its word? Do u hate God? If Nope, then can i have a word with you?

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No. I'm not born again.

I do read the Bible though and I cringe at a lot of the crap that evangelicals state that it says when it plainly doesn't.

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Bastage are u born again?

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Nazarene?

If it refers to Nazareth, it cannot be anything but a later addition can it?

If it refers to the Nazarene sect of the Essenes, that blows most fundamentalist Christian arguments regarding Christ out of the water.

You've shot yourself in the foot by making an argument that condemns you with your own logic.

But as stated, the passage refers to a Nazarite and not a "nazarene" as you so wrongly claim.

Nazarites were nothing more than Jews who took the ascetic vow described in Numbers 6:1-21. Nothing whatsoever to do with Christ. Any Jew could take that vow.

The so called "prophecy" refers to Samson. Nothing more.

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