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Whose Ideological Box Is Bigger?

The theists', or the atheists'?

That is if we all agree to the conclusion that both are living within a closed box made of ideologies or conceptual thoughts.Which of the two parties have more "headroom" in their respective boxes when it comes to their worldviews?

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I would wager what Bawomolo really means to say here is that atheism is a confused mixture of folks who are inherently bent on denying the existence of a God. To them it doesnt matter what "dogma" you subscribe to, the end justifies the means.

Atheism doesnt really "provide more wiggle room and less dogma", it simply provides a blanket covering for those who really have no idea why they believe God doesnt exist. It is an outlet for those who wish to live their lives free from the moral demands of a supreme being.

When Bawomolo says atheism has "less dogma" . . . is he aware that the irrational disbelief in the existence of God with NO PROOF is itself a dogma?

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Is the environment the handi work of your god because he told you that himself or do you accept it because you have been indoctrinated and conditioned to believe it?. . . .When I look around all I see is the environment, I do not see any god. . . .remember that your god was once all over the place fighting along side men and staining his cloth with the blood of his enemies for all to see, appearing to some of them(face to face and back parts), addressing them through public speech as recorded in his book by men. . . why did he suddenly run way? As to what kick started life I have always told you that I don't know. . . .All I KNOW is that all the god of man made religions did NOT do it. . . their accounts of how they did it is there written in their "holy" books are there for all to read. . . . .

I have never said that life does not require an intelligent being to exist. . . . .what I have always stated is that there is no evidence for any. . . by the way why does life require just one intelligent being? Why not so many intelligent beings? The ancient god inventors used to believe that there were many gods. . . .even the ancient jews also used to believe in the concept of many gods. . . .there is no evidence for any god and their is no evidence to show that there is any intelligent being flying in the sky. . .I have always maintained that the universe as it is makes all the gods of man made religion look insignificant. . .the very great vastness of the universe, and our ( humans ) relative insignificance in it says that it was not created for us as all man made religions will like to have us believe. . . .colliding stars, comets destroying each other, the expansion of the universe etc. . . .Personally I believe that these are just mindless forces acting on their own. . . .I will not just ascribe it to a deity because I believe it sounds convient

Have you now reduced the evidence for your god to rainfall and sunshine? Is photo synthesis now the evidence for your god? What is this? The sun is evidence for the sun and not for your god, scientist have studied the sun in great details and they did not see the name of your god written in any part of it. . . . . ditto for rain and photosynthesis. . . .

Point number one. . . .You fail to admit (something that can not be denied) that it is people who made those biblical statements with regards to wisdom and "salvation". . . It is people who are making claims that they are speaking for god or were inspired by god to speak or write on his behalf. . . No god has ever appeared to you and told you that he inspired any body to write anything on his behalf. . . . .all you have are people writing down their thoughts, fantasies, ideas. wishes and aspirations and ascribing it to their god. . . . Point number two. . . . You would like us to have faith in the claims of a very few people (people who started the religion you now sunscribe to), and completely reject the claims of many other people who have made different claims about speaking for different gods. . . .I do not have any problem with any god's liberty. . . I have problem with people always speaking for various god when no god has ever spoken for his/her self. . . . .That action alone says that all the gods are just not there. . . .

Almost on everythread you always sing to us why your god should be this or that. . . . Your own position reflects your personal defination of who you will like your god to be. . . .You reject outrageous claims by some in order to accept the outrageous claims of others and you protect your decision with a willingness to rationalize even to the point of contradiction (which you don't even notice). . . . . You have no business going around acting as though you have any truth and insight to offer. What you have to offer is your personal mind game and opinion you've created or have been created for you in order to make believe the world is the way you want it to be no more no less. . .

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Where is your evidence for this? There is NO basis to believe that the creation myth you subscrıbe to is true either. . . .

Even during goat herder days they all knew that reproduction was what was responsible for how people came about no? Everybody knows that life had to begin at a certian point no?

Where is your scientific evidence to disprove the TOE and show that species did not evolve? I am not saying that species evolved all I am is why should people accept your baseless hypothesis?

This is just a very silly creationist starw man. . . . . .

ACTUALLY the current scientific knowledge we posses had shown that the creation myth in genesis is a lie and can not be reconciled with science that is why some of your own people are throwing it away and refering to it as an allegory. . . .All what science has verified points to EVOLUTION not to the myth written down in the book of genesis. . . . .so farming is now an evidence for intelligent design eh? I laugh in greek. . . . . .The writers of the genesis account do not know what phtosynthesis means. . . they had their god creating plants before creating the sun and the stars . . . .In some parts of the bible they said their god created the world from water. . . .modern scıence does NOT agree with this. . . . stop telling lies science DOES not support or verify any part of the creation myth you subscribe to. . . .

The FACT that all the evıdence you have to point to your god are ONLY stories written by men according to their world view says he just is not there. . . . .Just a question for you how does your god look like? You should be able to answer this question sınce you ınsist that your god exist. . . .How does your god look like and what type of cloth does he wear since your bible says that he used to stain his cloth with the blood of those that worship other gods. . . .

The FACT is that genesis 1 and 2 were NOT written by the same person. . . .

Go to www.answersingenesis.com and pose your question there

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true indeed.

its a case that God has been substituted in ur limited understanding for environment. Its amazing that many of us can still distinguish between the hands/work of God and the ontology of an environment. it would be fun to know how the environment kick started life and what EXACTLY preceded the environment. I await ur answers in deep breadth.

the above is irrelevant to the discourse.

I have asked u to show any reason why life as we see it today does not require an intelligent being to exist.

please permit my sarcasm. . . but the above is gullible.

what other scientific evidence do u require? is reproduction or the photosynthetic "tools" (including the sun and rainfall) not verifiable?

1. what happened to God's liberty to do things as He pleases. The last time I checked, u were not compelled to post on this forum, u did so at ur own liberty.

So if God inspires men to write words of wisdom and salvation and also inspires men to teach such words, . . . why do u have a problem with the liberty of God?

2. almost on every thread u sing about how God should not be this or that. . , . . ur position reflects ur individual and personalised definition of God. unfortunately ur understanding of God has been rebuffed severally to be untenable. . . . . yet u keep . . . . .

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how many evidences do u want?

based on the premise of alternatives. . .we can start by saying that there is NO basis to assume/believe that the earth as we see it is a random occurrence or a product of evolution/bigbang.

with that in mind we can look at evidences from every day life , . including

a. reproduction. the ability of man to reproduce and not to evolve can only be credited to the art of creation.

b. time. the notion of time is interesting . . . it is more interesting to know that time as we know of it has a beginning. the beginning points to a period in time when life kick started.

life as we know of it today is of an intelligent form. . . . .it would require a more intelligent being to create an intelligent life. the complexity of species rules out the possiblity of all species evolving from a denominator. the diversity of all living things buttresses the notion of an intelligent being to see through the beautiful visualization of life as we currently see it.

c. evolution. it is very disturbing that man has "stopped" evolving. why do all men die and not evolve?

d. biblicel/creation notions. The intelligent being who created the earth stated His case in the bible. It might intreast u to know that most of these claims recorded in the bible in antedeluvian age are verifiable in this new era of scientific knowledge.

the photosyntetic nature of the gardden of eden, the irrigation, cultivation and general farming modus operandi for the garden, the art of creating light et all . . . .points directly to this.

u might want to look at this thread where I answered all ur posers already: http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-299040.0.html

what is this? did I write in russian?

if atheism has no connection with FAITH. . .what EXACTLY is ur evidence that suggests that there is no God.

this is not rocket science. . . . .just tell me how many years lie between genesis1:1 and genesis 1:2?

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So your own god has now been reduced to dark enegry eh? I laugh in Italian. . . .

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i do accept the possibility of a God, hey santa claus can exist but the possibility of man explaining the nature of this God is zilch.   Why talk about it if we can't define it or sense it?

but why did you arrive at the single number of ONE god? why not a multitude of creator Gods? my atheist stance is that God is not worth talking about.

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Jesoul - this last post of yours was your 3333rd post. That is a lucky number, make a wish, and i along with the ancient spirits of my element: earth - will grant it to you.

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What evidence exactly? You have NEVER persented any evidencve to show that the god you talk about exist at all, all you do is offer special pleading and point to the existence of other things as evidence for the existence of your god but the problem is that what we see around are evidence for environment NOT evidence for your god. . . .your god has clearly defined attribute written in the bible and that we do not see around at all. . . . .even christians do not agree on the BASIC nature of who this god you talk about is and that is a FACT. You talk about evidence but you never talk about if your god is detectable. . . Is your god dectable? Do you detect him because he is there or because you have been brought up and indoctrinated to detect and believe in what is not there?

If this god you guys talk about is detectable, shouldn't everyone who detects it be able agree about its properties? It should be as simple as agreeing about properties of gravity, no?

Why would there be need for 35,000 different christian denominations each fighting with each other over meaning of ancient text to show that their god exist?

Do you have any evidence to show that there is an old man in the sky? Which part of the sky does he reside in? How come your old only exist ONLY on the pages of ancient text? The worst problem for christians and other religionist is that your bible(koran etc) are all there for people to read and any body that reads them know that they are exactly the thoughts, wishes, mythologies, fantasies of OTHER MEN who wrote down their history and geneologies according to their world view and understanding of things nothing more. . . .You have NO evidence for a jewish old man floating in the sky all you have are your own assumptions and the assumptions of others that have been indoctrinated into you as a result of emotion, social and societal upbringing. . . .

The day you provide a single scientific evidence to show that your god exist is the day some of us will begin to take you as a serious person. . . .

There are millions of young earth creationist that believe that the world is about 6000 years old. . . .So the question is why would your god allow some of the people that believe in him to believe that the earth is about 6000 years old when its not? The problem is that your god is just not there and every body is self projecting himself as god using the bible and the assunptin that the god it talks about is true to create their own world view. . . .Why do christians not agree on anything? We have young earth creationist, those that believe in a global flood and those that don't and each of them use the bible to support their postulations. . . .Why all the confusion? Even the basic nature of the christian god is not even agreed upon by christians themselves? What does that tell you? It tells me that the god you guys are trying to sell is just not there. . . .

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What is dark energy in the universe. If you can give a concrete explanation for it, i will accept that there is no God.

The possibility of Dark Energy is a loophole in your assertion that the pulse or energy of a creator cannot be detected in the universe.

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eliminates that possiblity.

kind. A lot of atheists here on NL woulda gone the other route, fighting tooth and nail, grasping at the straws to try to justify or rationalize it. Kudos to you!

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My point is that the very determination demonstrated by atheists not to accept or atleast entertain the possibility of the existence of the supernatural can be seen as a dogmatic box in itself.

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Mostly atheists depend on and base their arguements about the way our existential realities function around the findings on scientific researches, so how do they(atheists) deal with the new informations coming out from such researches to the mainstream now that the reality we all experience extends far beyond the 5 senses?That our 5 senses, on which we depend so much on to enable us to make sense of our world, are not telling us the whole truth about that reality?The very same realm made out of non-matter, that atheists deny the existence of because they cannot be perceived through the senses, has been confirmed by the scientific community to be even more real than the material world of sensory perception itself.

How do atheists incorporate that into their non-belief of the non-material realms without shattering that very box?

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Adam was created on Day 6, so there were 5 days before him. If we add up the dates from Adam to Abraham, we get about 2,000 years, using the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis 5 and 11.3 Whether Christian or secular, most scholars would agree that Abraham lived about 2,000 B.C. (4,000 years ago).

So a simple calculation is:

5 days

+ ~2000 years

+ ~4000 years

______________

~6000 years

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why would u trust Allah to remove u from hell. . .when he forcefully/knowingly placed u there in the first place?

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the possibility isn't eliminated, it just seems highly unlikely considering the inability of man to determine the nature of this deity.

is a deity needed to experience a life-changing moment? i don't think so.

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are u blind? read my last posts . . . .

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1. I am smarter than mohammed and Allah combined together.

2. u have NEVER refuted it. how can u refute the words of Allah? read surah 19:71

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whats the difference? since all muslims would also be in hell . . . . . .

and morover what happens to thise who show hostility to others in the name of Allah and mohammed?

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   Because neither the faithful nor the faithless can definitively prove what they[b] believe[/b] to be truth. Like it or not, anyone in possession of any kind of belief system, moral or religious, is in a box . . . and that is not a bad thing.

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I can think of at least one boundary that your reasoning has: the boundary of the possibility of the existence of a Deity.

If you are truly open minded, you will accept that that is a possibility, just like all the other possibilities that you accept.

But dogmatically, you insist that all other possibilities may exist, EXCEPT THAT ONE.

Isn't that contradictory?

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Lets get some things straight. . . . . . .

1. Atheists live in an ideological box. This is simply because in the face of all evidence, they have ruled out the possibility of an intelligent being creating the world. This is called a DOGMA. this is also rather unintelligent as we all can see that the chances of "things" being as they are now without an intelligent old man in the sky are one in infinity.

2. atheism is also a religion. depends largely on ur understanding of a religion. . . .a religion is simply defined by faith. the subject of atheism is the disbelief in the existence of God, this simply requires FAITH as there is no scientific, intellectual or logical evidence that supports this assertion.

So we can infer that an atheist is a religious person who lives in a religious dogma that denies the existence of God, without any scientific knowledge, but based solely on the premise of FAITH.

3. where in the bible did u deduce that the earth was created 6,000 years ago? for all we know. . .there was a time-gap between genesis 1:1 and genesis 1:2

. . .so where did u get ur assertions from?

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@jagunlabi

i disagree with you because i don't reason that we athiests reason inside an ideological box. The walls of the box have been knocked down the moment u stopped believing in religious dogma. So your reasoning has no boundaries, there are no walls. Its the the theist who believes that an old man created the planet 6'000 years ago who reasons inside the box. And the box is 6000 years in lengh and 6'000 years in width according thier beliefs.

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This is by no means an indictment on the bible itself. It would be by far more accurate to designate blame to the adherents, and not the religion.

my experience is not truth for everyone else, they'll live out their own walks and decide for themselves what to believe or disbelieve.

Anything wrong with "just a disbelief in God and you are on your own"? . . . depends on who you're asking. I believe the bible and so I say yes, there's something wrong with that, and you obviously believe otherwise. Who's right? well isn't the age-old question . . .

but anyways, my main motive was to disabuse the poster of the false notion that partaking of or being open to an assortment of various ideologies makes one a better human being.

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I won't consider a religion that can't agree on the contents of it's holy text to be that qualitative (there are different versions of the bible right?). The enormous amounts of Christian sects tells me quantity isn't a problem for them either.

You have jumped from one goal post to another. How do you know this power you believe in is life changing? Isn't it possible to have a non-interventionist God? there is no assorted belief, just a disbelief in God and you are on your own.

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That your "ideological box" may be bigger is of little to no consequence. It's about quality not quantity.

You may have more "headspace" and "wiggleroom" to fit in a smorgasbord of assorted beliefs or lack thereof, but what is it worth if they be of empty of soulful conviction, puffed up but impotent, characterized by an absence of true life-changing power?

We need to lose this false mentation that implies the more you allow in, the better of a human being you are.

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I would say atheism considering how broad the philosophy can be. Atheists can be anything from buddhist to humanists to communists or evolutionists. Atheism provides more wiggle room and less dogma.

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