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Why Pray - ”Let Thy Will Be Done”?

When you pray ‘Let Thy Will Be Done’, you recognize God’s sovereignty over every aspect of our daily lives. It is a way of saying that we will be in deep trouble if God gave us everything for which we asked? more

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To know God and the power of His love is impossible without practical observance of His Word, which means that we must seek to walk as Christ walked.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

Even Jesus prayed to the Father, “Your will be done,” in the Lord’s prayer Matthew 6:9-15

This verse in Matthew 26 again shows Jesus praying in a similar way: Matthew 26:39

He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, “My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me, Yet I want your will to be done, not mine.”

It shows humility and trust in God to admit we don’t understand his perfect will. So, I often pray, “Lord, this is what my heart desires, but what I truly want is your will in this situation.” Other times I pray, "Lord, I am not certain of your will, but I trust you will do what is best." GOD'S WILL IS THE BEST

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^^^ Nope! TWO repetitions, making three instances!

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@Joagbaje,

I think that's precisely what I've been doing, no?

I kinda like the way you said that all this tripe is your "personal view", and indeed it is not the Word of God. You seem to be convincing me more and more that it's either you don't know the meaning of God's omnipotence and omniscience, or you just don't have any regard for God Himself to have been asserting what you can't find in His Word.

Let's just take two examples from your list:

 (A)    law of nature,

 (B)    reproduction to the law of sin and death

You did not tell me what you might mean by 'law of nature' - at least, I distinguished between: (a) the scientific sense, and (b) the religio-spirituality sense. If I had to take the former [(a)], then it means that you have reduced God to a mere puppet subservient to nature.

As such, your contraption of 'God' rules out Sovereignty and God's Preternatural Power. The 'god' you speak of is NOT the God we read of in the Bible for the Christian faith - for that which submits his omnipotence and omniscience to some set laws by necessity suggests that he cannot rise above those same laws of nature.

The same thing could be said as to 'the law of sin and death'. Even in our humanity, we cannot rise above such a "law of sin and death" in our best efforts. If we would be delivered, we need Someone who Himself is not under such a law - this is why Paul declares: 'For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from "the law of sin and death"' (Rom. 8:2). Just imagine a situation where you have to reckon on a 'god' who has himself submitted his sovereignty to the same law under which you are held bound!

Joagbaje, you only confirm that you either don't know God in the Biblical sense, or that you don't understand the terms you use in your arguments ... or if you understand anything at all, you simply have absolutely no regard for God.

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Like i said earlier . . . .His will is perfect for us, cos He know us more than we even know ourselves, He created us for a purpose

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I have a lot to say about the above, but I will let viaro answer for himself.

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Stop hiding behind wof doctrines , deal with me as a person by the word.

There are several laws of God in the universe and in his dealings with man. From the laws of sowing and reaping , the law of justice, law of nature, reproduction to the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life, the law of faith etc.

God submits his omnipotence to this laws and his omniscience if I may say. This is my personal view from the word. For example , God in his omniscience should not have been surprised at the evil in the world in the days of Noah ,

Genesis 6:5-6

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why should an omniscience God be taken by surprises, why should he regret creating man, didnt he know everything, didnt he know what they would do? In his omniscience he does but in his dealing with man he does not. but we know he does , but that how he relates in mans understanding , We should not try to probe into matters too high for us.

Deut. 29:29

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

There are beings in the spiritual realm. principalities that are watching over the earth and giving reports to God. The bible call them watchers. they give report to God. and by there decree. God would know if the cup of iniquity of a man or a nation is full for judgement.

Daniel 4:17

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel 4:13

I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Daniel 4:23

And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

God didnt allow Israel to destroy the amorites because there cup of iniquity was not yet full according to the watchers.

Genesis 15:16

But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

They cried to God also concerning the iniquity of soddom and gommorah

Genesis 18:20-21

And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does the God that knows everything require a watcher as reporter?

We should deal with God according to his dealings in our different dispensation. If you running this race of omnicience of God , there will be collision with other spiritual laws. somebody will soon enter the error of predestination

Stop hiding behind wof doctrines , deal with me as a person by the word.

There are several laws of God in the universe and in his dealings with man. From the laws of sowing and reaping , the law of justice, law of nature, reproduction to the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life, the law of faith etc.

God submits his omnipotence to this laws and his omniscience if I may say. This is my personal view from the word. For example , God in his omniscience should not have been surprised at the evil in the world in the days of Noah ,

Genesis 6:5-6

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why should an omniscience God be taken by surprises, why should he regret creating man, didnt he know everything, didnt he know what they would do? In his omniscience he does but in his dealing with man he does not. but we know he does , but that how he relates in mans understanding , We should not try to probe into matters too high for us.

Deut. 29:29

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

There are beings in the spiritual realm. principalities that are watching over the earth and giving reports to God. The bible call them watchers. they give report to God. and by there decree. God would know if the cup of iniquity of a man or a nation is full for judgement.

Daniel 4:17

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel 4:13

I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Daniel 4:23

And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

God didnt allow Israel to destroy the amorites because there cup of iniquity was not yet full according to the watchers.

Genesis 15:16

But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

They cried to God also concerning the iniquity of soddom and gommorah

Genesis 18:20-21

And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does the God that knows everything require a watcher as reporter?

We should deal with God according to his dealings in our different dispensation. If you running this race of omnicience of God , there will be collision with other spiritual laws. somebody will soon enter the error of predestination

Stop hiding behind wof doctrines , deal with me as a person by the word.

There are several laws of God in the universe and in his dealings with man. From the laws of sowing and reaping , the law of justice, law of nature, reproduction to the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life, the law of faith etc.

God submits his omnipotence to this laws and his omniscience if I may say. This is my personal view from the word. For example , God in his omniscience should not have been surprised at the evil in the world in the days of Noah ,

Genesis 6:5-6

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why should an omniscience God be taken by surprises, why should he regret creating man, didnt he know everything, didnt he know what they would do? In his omniscience he does but in his dealing with man he does not. but we know he does , but that how he relates in mans understanding , We should not try to probe into matters too high for us.

Deut. 29:29

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

There are beings in the spiritual realm. principalities that are watching over the earth and giving reports to God. The bible call them watchers. they give report to God. and by there decree. God would know if the cup of iniquity of a man or a nation is full for judgement.

Daniel 4:17

This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel 4:13

I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Daniel 4:23

And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

God didnt allow Israel to destroy the amorites because there cup of iniquity was not yet full according to the watchers.

Genesis 15:16

But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

They cried to God also concerning the iniquity of soddom and gommorah

Genesis 18:20-21

And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does the God that knows everything require a watcher as reporter?

We should deal with God according to his dealings in our different dispensation. If you running this race of omnicience of God , there will be collision with other spiritual laws. somebody will soon enter the error of predestination

God can do anything. but he wont.

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Praying for God's Will is not outdated.

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Enigma, I was going to keep quiet about all of this because no matter how often a negro takes his bath, he won't become a caucasian; and I'm tired of this gist. But you have already addressed my concerns. Thanks

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Which Christian denomination (i.e. apart from WoF) agrees with you and WoF that:

(a) Jesus was just a man who could only act/operate by faith

(b) A Christian is "god" or "God"

(c) The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.

So is satan not operating on this planet? Is satan physical? It is not illegal for satan as a spirit to operate on this planet but it is illegal for God as a spirit to do it? So as a spirit God is even less than satan, also as a spirit, on this planet?

You cannot see the daftness of the WoF logic that your man and his more serious senior heretics have fed you?

Further:

How did God appear to Moses in the burning bush again? Which physical body did He use?

How did Elijah and Moses appear with the Lord during the transfiguration?

I have confined myself to only the above in your post to keep things brief. I will make a comment though ---- you do not really understand when aletheia accuses you of gnosticism. With your constant references to "in the spirit realm"  and the way you use that phrase you might as well be practising the same religion and "faith" as occultists, witches, Fadeyi oloro, etc. In fact I do remember a post where you compared your use of "the word" to their practises.

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You are wrong here . it is not the will of God for any to die.

Nobody is denying that there are callings, giftings and abilities. Dont try to cleverly manipulate it into another thing. God has his will for each person. We need to know his will for our lives and fulfill. The attempt to pitch me against the plan and purpose of God will not be successful. My point is simple. A man will need to cooperate with God ,to bring his will to pass in his life. The will of God may not come to pass in a man's life, God Omnipotence cannot force a man into his will. Even though God possess such ability , he will not use it. You shoul know his will and purpose to fulfil it.

Acts 22:14

And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest[b] know his will[/b], and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

Abraham knew Gods will, Jesus knew Gods will, Paul knew Gods will and he prayed for churches to bre filled with the knowledge of the will.

Philip. 3:12-13

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

2 Tim. 4:7

I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

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^^^

Joagbaje's logic is defeated by the evidence that miracles occur. Miracles by their nature are a suspension of the laws in operation on earth when God chooses to sovereignly act to bring them to pass. The irony of the situation is that WoF is very loud in it's claims of miracles.

The Law is clear, "the soul that sins will die" and thus all men die but God has intervened that we might live. But Joagbaje's logic would have God bound and constrained by Law and unable to save.

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No worries, for however 'appropriately' you may have tried to express it, your ideas are still skewed and do not point to God's Word.

This is what you had stated:

First, what are the "laws" God has set in the 'universe' that would necessitate His submitting His omnipotence to the rules He has set?

I do not want to confuse between 'laws of the universe' in either - (a) the scientific sense, or (b) the [url=http://members.optusnet.com.au/~acceptance/UnderstandingSpirituality/Spirituality%20Files/LawsoftheUniverse.htm]religio-spirituality sense[/url]. However, in whatever sense you might have meant it, what are those 'laws' of the universe that are so baronial as that God would have to "submit His omnipotence" to them?

Now, if by 'laws of the universe' you now narrow them down to 'the rules of justice he set on the earth', how do you reconcile both statements? Does God actually "submit" His omnipotence to rules He set on earth? Is the earth now the same as the 'universe' that your reductionism has to bring God's omnipotence over all things down to what you want to argue on earth?

You see, it is now clear with each passing day that the WOF doctrines you espouse are sailing further and farther away from God's Word. It seems the latest in your posts is to find new ways for old tales of WOF doctrines to make God {who upholds all things by the word of His power} to now be subservient to whatever puny man dictates on earth - a tiny speck in a vast universe.

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But it is not an issue with me if you tag me any name, It is just for you to know it is escapisim from biblical discussion.

You are wrong to say the rest of christian body does not agree . It only few ignorant folks that are being used by the enemy to attack the mesage of faith ,that is required to perfect the church in their authority against the devil.

It  not a contradiction if I say spirits are illegal on this planet and man is a spirit. That is the reason God put man in the human body to have a legal right to function, if a man loses his body , he is out of this plane. If God must function here, he must require a physical body too. but certainly not the heavenly body.

Genesis 18:20-21

    And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does this sound like the ominiscience of God? he didnt know? does he need to find out? Why he was relating according to spiritual rule and understanding of man. We should not defend what we dont know, There are rules. He didnt come as God.

He came down in human body not in his glory, he appeared to Moses also . He may appear in your dream,but he doesnt come in heavenly glory, his appearance has to be in  a way human brain can accept.

Exodus 33:20

    And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

You need to know also, that certain things God allowed or did under certain dispensation are not allowed again under new dispensation. Now he has given us his word , to live by faith. The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus from the dead to go back and appear to his wicked brothers so as to warn them, If they see a dead man ,they will believe, God could have done this in his omnipotence, but he will not, he has given us his word to accept, he wont coerce us into his will. Abraham replied that " they have the scriptures ,let them hear it" He poited them to the word. God once permitted Cain to Marry his sister. He permitted, lot to sleep with his daughters( I meant he could have preventted it.)  But he made a strict law against such later. He is still thesame God. He does not change but his dealings with man change from time to time according to the message or knowledge he has given in each age.

I asked if God will just do anything he likes why wont he just kill satan and get people saved and your response was :

Satan has not been judged or covicted, so how many years are we going to wait, What of the billions of people that are being dammed to everlasting torment and many suffering today because of satanic activities on his way to gas chamber. The good God will only say " Dont worry everybody, satan will be judged soon" or executed soon . No it doesnt sound righteous of him , he does not want any man to perish. He not the one running affairs here. That is why he has given us his word to navigate our way into his will. He can not eliminate the devil for man's freedom, he has to do things legally, He is a God of justice, and there are rules

He is almighty, He can do anything but he wont do anything, because there are rules. The just shall live by faith.

  He had decreed by Jeremiah that Israel will spend 70 years in captivity. 70 years came and pass they were still there , untill Daniel read the prophecy of jeremiah and he began to pray, God always need a man.

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For your second question , Yes ,there are things God will do beyond our faith because he is God, But personaly I feel these still require our cooperations especially in the area of intercession. If God in his ominipotence will Just do anything, Why cant he just get the arabians saved, why would he need us to preach?. But sometimes he allows such miracles to take place, like the story of Saul because some people are praying. That is why he always call for intercessors. There are some evil God would have averted but he needs a man to pray about it. But of a truth, there are things that happens in lives of people ,beyond their faith. I have been in programmes where someone get healed without even expecting it, someone even once got healed while he was making mockery of miracles.

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@QInesor

Why did you backslide brother, So what do you believe now

Look , This is simple even though I may not agree to the extreme launguage he used. Noobody can ban God . But the Issue is ,God is a just God, and there are laws he has set in the universe. He himself is bound by those laws and has to submit his omnipotence to the rules he has set.

Psalm 115:16

   The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

It is man that has legal right to function on this planet . Spirits are not allowed. God is spirit, demons are spirits, man is spirit. But a spirit withoun legal human body is illegal allien on this planet. For a spirt to function here , they need a human body, that is why demons ,who have lost their bodies need a body to enter desperately. it is either a spirit gets abody to enter or he can infuece a man that has body to carry out  his purpose. God will not come down to the earth to do things. It will be illegal. He would be braking rules. Why didnt God just kill satan, why does he allow temptations and other things. Because there are rules!

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Joagbaje, should I expect answer to my 2 questions? If you won't answer, please let me know so you won't keep me waiting. Thanks.

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Kai! Kenneth Copeland Says God Is Banned From The Earth Unless The Church Allows Him!?

That's sick!!!

And I recall when I used to be a partner of KCM Ministries. . . almost ten years ago. I didn't know I was partially supporting the spread of spiritual diseases. Wow!!!

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I'm sure this is one of the "far far deeper" teachings --- but see one of the earlier sources of the teaching by WoF head honcho Kenneth Copeland

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@Joagbaje: CEC and Pastor Oyakhilome aside, can you explain this quote of yours in post #109 on this thread, with the adequate backing of scriptural references?

Also, please answer also the simple question I am posing to nuella2 below. Thanks.

@Nuella2: Do you believe that there are things that no matter your level of faith, understanding, revelation or anything, God will do and there's nothing you can do about it?

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The same way I judge Oyakhilome by the heresies that he teaches/preaches!

And in your case, even if I don't mention Oyakhilome or WoF most of what I have seen you express on this board are either erroneous, heterodox and heretical or just misinformed. Only, I know the source and origin of what you spout ----- you do not deny that they are from Oyakhilome; and I know where Oyakhilome gets his own heresies from --- it is from the Word of Faith movement. I have heard him ---- and he has never said anything that I could not trace where he got it from. So he is not saying anything "deep"; Oyakhilome's teaching that you consider "deep", "deeper", or "deepest", I reckon I am far more likely than not to call heresy.

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The teaching of pastor Chris is far far deeper than all these people you are calling.So there is no point making reference to word of fAith movement. Of course there are some common grounds. I don't want to know your denomination, I want to judge you by your words and the word of God.

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@Joagbaje

Well, as you said you are not giving straight answers and I am not surprised. Also instructive is your manner of answering whether you are "god" or "God".

Anyway, I think I have already done enough of pestering today so I'll leave you to "think on these things".

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@Enigma

I can't give you straight answers to these things. It could be misunderstood . Paul didn't teach all he knew either. Some answer will require so much explanations.

1.Did Jesus come as a man ? Yes , he required faith and the holyghost to acomplished all he did , yes.

3.I am not God

4.I don't agree with you because Jesus did not come from adam , he had no sin . He was different from every man.

5. I don't Agree with your no 5 either , maybe you just exergerated what was said.

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Here again, which of these do you subscribe to? Which do you disagree with? Which do you reject?

PS There are more that I will ask similarly after you deal with these.

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@Enigma

1 Tim. 2:3-4

   For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Question; Are all men  saved? No of course why is the will of God not come to pass. Because man has a choice to agree or not. The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.!

We pray to enforce his will in our world.

1 Tim. 2:1-4

   I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; [2] For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

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Nah, I deliberately answered your question that way ----- in the hope it might make you think. Let me try another tack:

When God first asked the prophet to tell Hezekiah that he would die ----- did God know at that time that Hezekiah would plead for his life; also, did God know that He (God) would still later tell the prophet to go back and tell Hezekiah that his life was spared?

Or perhaps God could not see the future?

Perhaps God is not Omniscient ----- did He not Know that Abraham was going to plead for the people of Sodom?

If you believe that God cannot see the future, then perhaps it is easy to believe that God can get His own will wrong and then need to change it after man points out God's own error to Him!

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@ Enigma

It will be of interest for you to know that pastor Chris does not believe in WOF movement , neither do I. Maybe when i see their constitution I will consider if I should, but I dont believe in associations. I believe in the word.If you are dealing with me , deal with me according to the word Wof or no Wof. The point is , If i say or teach , you should judge it by the word . I judge you teaching by the word , I dont need to tag you with a name or organisation. all pentecostals believes different things, Oyedepo wash feet, and use annointing oil, Deeper life dont do either. You dont say all pentecostal use oil because they dont. Wof members . if theres anything like that may teach what I agree with according to truth that doesnt mean we all believe thesame thing. Quote the bible to judge my post not this so called Wof whatever.I have deeper understanding than some of these so called Wof. It will be degrading for me to say I follow them.

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Do you see now that we are going round in circles?

As I said before, I'll leave you with your own understanding, the questions I posed and the statements that I made on page 3 (which actually cryptically answer your last question).

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Do you agree that the will of God can be changed sometimes before you ask me which one i prefer. Do you agree? yes or no

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See the bit I've underlined ---- thus:

Which would you rather have: that which God wills for you OR that which you will for yourself?

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OK I wont refer to Word of Faith movement (if you like).

Second, already I am being dragged into going round in circles, which I wanted to avoid ---- so I will just leave you with the last question once again.

If you can make God change His original will (A) to another one (B), does it not mean:

(1) that God was wrong to have chosen His original will (A); and

(2) that you know better than God since you chose (B) which God later agreed with you is better than His own original (A)?

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You are right that I sounded like I did not want to waste my time. The reason is simple: my answer to the point you made is in my post that you quoted as well as in an earlier post where I said that Christians worldwide believe in intercession --- but that is not the same as forcing/compelling (or even preventing) the will of God.

You may argue that interceding to change God's mind is the same as changing the will of God; even IF I grant you that, what still transpires in the end is the will of God ---- either as He always planned it or as His mind has apparently been changed.

If you can change the will of God, do you not think that it means you know better than God --- since the will of God was wrong or not good and therefore needed to be changed?

Anyway, I will not be surprised if you think you know better than God because in essence that is what adherents of the Word of faith movement really teach/believe ----- even if the less thoughtful ones do not realise it!

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If that is your understanding, you can have it; I do not see the point of going round in circles.

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Did the apostles teach the brethren to recite that prayer?

What is the meaning of, pray in this manner, that Jesus told them?

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You are confusing yourself: if God does not change, how do you change His will then?

So is it God that changes His own will/decision ----- or is it man that changes God's will/decision?

If God wills A and man wills B ----- can man bring B to pass if God does not change His mind?

Even if God does change His mind from A to B and B happens ---- was it the man that brought B to pass or was it God Himself that brought B to pass?

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nuella: The Lord's Prayer aka Our Father or Pater Noster (if you're co inclined) was part of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount which our Lord Jesus Christ taught to deplore people who are used to grandiose prayers for the purpose of being seen to pray. It is a standard on how to pray, the ONLY standard that truly matters if you ask me.

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OK I'll keep Oyakhilome out of it for now; (We have had to mention his name because we know that a number of those arguing the nonsense that the Lord's prayer is for babies are his followers --- as many of them have admitted. Are you or are you not a member of his church and/or not a follower of his teachings?)

Anyway, if you go back and study the Bible passages relating to when Christ taught His disciples that prayer I would expect that you would not need to ask why it is called the Lord's prayer.

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So when God dialogued with Abraham, God then needed the cooperation of Adam Abraham to make His own will come to pass? Was it not that God said to Adam Abraham, "OK I will not . . ." So how was Abraham's cooperation needed in relation to God's power for that which God would not indeed not to happen?

How about Hezekiah ---- when God said 'I have heard your prayer and I will heal you', what did Hezekiah have to do to compel God's power to do what he said 'I will' i.e. to heal him.

Christians worldwide believe in intercession; they do not see that as forcing/compelling God; they do not see the happening of that which they prayed for as something occurring by their own power or something they have made to happen --- but rather as something due to the divine grace of God.

Even Jesus Christ Himself prayed 'thy will be done' ---- was He less on the earth than the so called "mature born again man"?

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What and how did Oyakhilome teach you about the Lord's prayer?

If you don't want to answer that one, then tell us your own perspective on the Lord's prayer!

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When Jesus taught his disciples to pray did he say they should be reciting it or he gave them a pattern to pray? why is it called the lords prayer sef? Is he the person that prayed that prayer or he taught his disciples.

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And in any event --- how does any of those indicate someone "changing the will of God"?

A better example might have even been Abraham pleading with God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah ---- but even that does not accord with the Word of Faith movement's doctrine which is based on "speaking words of faith" or "exercising faith" rather than praying to or pleading with God.

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    And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the Lord God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

Joshua 10:13

    And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

I though God has programmed when the sun should rise and set? A man changed that. What of HEZEKIAH didnt he changed what God said and planned?

 

2 Kings 20:1

    In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

My brother these where men that changed God's will at sometime, so there are things we can change.

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"God's will" will be done whether we like it or not, Remember what happened to Jonah when he thought he could dictate for God.

Jesus Christ (our ONLY advocate) prayed for God's will to be done instead of his own, we must be VERY careful when we put HUMANS on a pedestal when there is no MORE middle man between God and man.

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I like the way you put it. True, my thoughts differs from Joe's. I was referring to proposition 1 in my post, but with a slight modification. i.e. there are those things that must happen and there are those things that will happen only if we allow the Almighty to lead us. It a mixture of 1 & 3 really.

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I am ready to answer this your last post: however, which of the five things I listed in the post before it do you subscribe to; and which do you disagree with?

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That is sheer nonsense! You have admitted before that you follow the teachings of Kenyon, Hagin & Copeland. We have demonstrated conclusively that these are the leaders of the Word of Faith movement. Also, we have told you that Oyakhilome simply parrots what those heretics teach/taught and bamboozle you guys with such and pretending to have some "revelation".

Finally, you have here repeated several doctrines or "understandings of the Bible" (if we may call it that) that only the Word of Faith movement and its associates or infectees hold to. The following which you have yourself stated or supported expressly are Word of Faith movement doctrine which makes you conclusively a WoFer or Word of Faith movement follower/adherent (and thus, in my personal view, a heretic):

1. Jesus was just a man who operated by faith

2. As a born-again Christian you are "god" or "God".

3. The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.

The ones below you didn't say expressly but you patently refused to deny them:

4.

5.

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

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@ Enigma

can you quote any article where Kenyon or anyone claim there are starting a movement called word of faith. Can you also quote where I said that I follow Kenyon . all these people you mentioned don't all believe same things . I believe in some of their teachings but not necessary all. I believe in the teachings that agrees with the word of God. They all have different levels of understanding of truth. There is word of faith but there's is no such things as word of faith mvement.

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@Joagbaje

Here are two of the three propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

Which one of those two does God need your cooperation for His will to be done?

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@ Enigma

This is the point Ive been trying to pass across but its being hijacked to mean what I didnt say. God has good plan for all his children.But the good plan will not work out by itself. because satan is still on rampage, his name means opponent,resistor etc. God has good plan for us all

Jeremiah 29:11

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Gods good plan will not just work out by itself.

Deut. 30:19

I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

But despite this , God sometimes does some things without a mans cooperation but these so called sovereign manifestations still needs human cooperation through intercession. Saul got converted because people are praying. Peter ,Paul got delivered from prison and death because the saints were praying. God is always looking for an intercessor so that his will will come to pass.

Ezekiel 22:30-31

And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. [31] Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.

God would have destroyed Israel several times if Moses had not interceded for them. He told God in one occasion to repent of the evil he was going to do in destroying the people, and THE SOVEREIGN GOD REPENTED.

Exodus 32:14

And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

If moses had not interceded and God destroys them , today people will say, he is sovereign thats why he repent not.

God has given man sole responsibility for his life. He has to function in Gods designed plan to function in it.

Pls I dont follow the so called Word Of Faith doctrine. It is an escappee name tag here. But i believe in The Word of God as the word of faith.And anyone who has not known word of faith is still a baby.

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@Zikky

I think the point you are trying to make is different from that of Joagbaje's and his origin in Word of Faith movement doctrine.

Of course, a person who refuses to get educated, learn a trade or seek employment etc cannot expect to be successful ------ that is not really a matter of God's will per se. That is a matter of the ordinary course of things ---- of general nature. Let us put it in terms of three simplistic propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

3. God has left some things to happen or not happen according to the natural order or according to man's decision/action; i.e. God has not imposed a will as to whether some things will happen or not.

OK: these are three propositions and people may agree or disagree. However, I put these propositions up to ask of people like Joagbaje and others who follow Word of Faith movement doctrine, which of these three things requires the cooperation of man or of "the Christian" for God's will to be done?

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