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Will God Send Good Atheists To Hell?

I started this same topic on another forum. So far I haven't got any replies. So I'll put it forward to you guys here.

Someone on that forum made this statement:

"God won't punish you and send you to hell if all you are always trying to do is the right thing"

This got me thinking.

As we all know, atheism is simply a lack of belief in a deity. And being an atheist does not make the person evil either. Therefore, if there is an atheist who is always trying to do good (there are so many atheists like that), and he practically succeeds in doing good throughout his life time, even better than those who believe in God; is he still going to be sent to hell?

Thanks for your anticipated responses.

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75 answers

We believe in Jesus, so we are not atheists

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Why would the afterlife be different from the before life?

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@Davidylan:

God may give the faithless doer of good work his re-compensation by giving him good health, long and happy life, happy marriage, good children, great wealth, fame and fortune, etc, as God determines. good work alone will not amount to anything on the Day of Assembly.

Wrong faith includes saying God is 3 persons whether you continue to say it is still ONE GOD or denying the obvious that you now have 3 God[s] to many God[s] to tribal God, etc. Absolute Single Faith that is prescribed by God of all creations is "There is no God/god except THE GOD WHO IS THE CREATOR. He has no partner neither in Heavens [unseen, unknown] nor in earth [seen or unseen] or between the two or after the two.

God is unlike the creations and the creation has nothing that is similar to Him.

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@TayoD: Its very shameful that you resulted to personal attack. Anyway, this does not face me. I had read the Bible. Seun is still reading it, maybe because of his parentage, his ownership of the board, seeking religion or for other reason.

My quoting Seun's entry is just a matter of supporting my argument, ven from the Bible. However, I am very happy with The Qur'an and Islam as a religion. I am actually trying to cultivate everyone, Seun included to the religion of truth.

I do not have to waste my time trying to read the Bible, because it will very difficult to know which publication, version and printing period of the Bible and which denomination is the real Christian Bible!

On this board, in another thread, the protestants are asking if the Catholics are even christians! Yet, the protestants are breakaway sects from the mother Roman catholic Church. So if they are asking if the catholics are christians, really they are asking themselves if they are christians. They just did not see it off the bat.

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Lordimpaq,

Good guy has already answered the question.

Of course I would add that it is not just the authorized KJV but also the MKJV and the NKJV that use the word evil. Others too.

Of course every true thing in the bible will be repeated in more than one place it is said in more than one verse also.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Notice this man of God, says good and evil comes from the hand of God. And directly after this statement it is sais "Job did not sin with his lips".

So that certainly can not be a lie.

Go over to Jeremiah's book Lamentations:

Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

God causes the grief, but will have compassion.

Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

God does not do it willingly but still it is undisputed in the prophets mind that it is god doing it.

****

In fact I think it would be kinda of silly, to believe in a God, who is helpless to stop evil and just must sit idly by and watch satan do his thing.

Satan works for God, God tells you that also:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Which makes complete sense:

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

No weapon formed against thee shall prosper because in fact the Lord controlls the waster and destroyer.

The Lord's chasetisement leads to holiness, it's for your own good.

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Atheists don't believe a God exists, and they don't believe in hell.

When associated with a religion, then probably the creation of the religion in question.

It would seem the many events that have involved irrational, unthinking, etc Muslims are in direct contradiction of what you think the Quran and hadiths challenge mankind to do.

Yes, even more so.

Ah! Like the Christian, "God said let there be, and there was".

No, Kepler did not know everything, but his laws help to explain orbits.

So?

I have, wasn't dazzled, I was dismayed by the several half truths, outright lies, spurious interpretations, and some of the bad science involved.

That, or the Earth isn't that diffrent from planets like Mars, and therefore processes happen that don't require some God putting balances.

[quoteAs to your thought of mutation, it is impossible.

What? Not to be rude, but I couldn't understand any of that, so I'll just assure you that mutations do happen, they are not that mysterious, and they are certainly not a big secret.

Okay.

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@Olabowale,

Do not try to hide behind what Seun said to excuse your ignorance of the writings of Paul or any other Author of the Bible.  You also hide behind the broken monologue that the Bible is corrupted as an excuse to argue away every thing you can't explain away.  What a lazy alternative to pursue.

While standing behind what Seun said, can you kindly provide the proofs of such thoughts?  Can you kindly show us where and how Paul's writings contradicts any Old Testament teachings or how his teachings contradicts Jesus', Peter's, Luke's or John's teachings? 

Now the following Books and Authors do meet up the with the standards you personally listed.  Now please tell us how closely related to the revelations of the Beduoin 'Prophet' Muhammad, these revelations are.  The Books are the Gospel of John, The Gospels of Luke, Acts of the Apostles, The letter of James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1, 2 & 3 John, Jude and Revelation.

I hope you won't change the goal posts again to satisfy your prejudice as your prophet was fond of doing.

@Seun,

Please provide proofs to back your assertion about Paul's writings, as some ignorant people here have now taken your word as gospel truth.

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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7

That is the Authorized King James Version, which was translated out of the original tongues.

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plz can you help me for this recharge card for MTN AND ANY OTHER NETWOR

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@Ndipe: I do not have to go to any website to know what Qur'an says about Jesus being Massiah. His Massiahship is restricted to the children of Israel. He was to bring them back to the religion of Musa, renewing the laws that guided that religion. So the book of Injiil was to provide the latest guidance at that time, back to the religion that Musa led his people by.

I try to read the Qur'an daily, in Arabic and by this, I understand Qur'anic Arabic language to an acceptable quality for me. I am still trying to better myself, but I do not need a christian website to understand Qur'anic defination of Isa bin Mariam (AS).

Infact, I do not need an Orientalist (Mutamushrik) to do this. I as a muslim agree with all that the Qur'an says.

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hi there drusilla,

What version of the bible was that verse,

it is important to clarify because the Lord did not create evil, it depends on the the version, some bible versions don't clarify that fact, evil is not a physical thing, the Lord only allowed the presence of evil, Evil itself is the absence of good,

and it can be misleading to people who really want to know about God,

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Olabowole, what does the Koran say about the Messiahship of Jesus Christ?

Read this links.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/quran-Jesus.html

http://www.theGrace.com/about.html

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@TayoD: I wonder what I said that was so foreign to you. In your Bible, you have where it is said that the pen of the scribes/rabbis have changed the words from their places. In other words, the book have been doctored by man from its original form. In the Qur'an, you will read that the Bible, which consists the Old testament, given to moses (AS), the Psalm, given to david (AS) and the new testament, given to Jesus (AS)  is deemed impure, doctored.

However, God said that the Qur'an will remain pure till end of time, because He, God will guard it. What i simply ask or really rhetorical put forward to Seun, is that why can the so called inspired writers of the Bible books, just identified themselves and say that they have been inspired to write this or that.

What i have seen or what I have been able to draw out, until it became known to me that there are many writers and many bible version, some having more books than the others and the verses of some chapters are no constant, in number and content, is that the inspired writers never identify themselves and always write for the known personalities of the Bible. Take the case of Jesus (AS), the ospels are written by unknown writers, but put each Gospel as 'according to' terminology! Why are there other Gospel writers since Jesus had 12 core companions. Let take away judas, you will have 11 left. You have only 4 Gospels, what happen to the remaining 7 cmpanions? We already agreed that Paul was not from this core 12 companion, less 1, Judas!

In so doing Paul will not count and at best a second generation person. In Islam, at best he paul will be a tabihin, not a sahabah, for sure. From Seun's entry, you will come to conclusion that some of Jesus' companions, Peter for example and maybe many others, disagreed with Pauls teachings, in the most mondane way, have problem with it.

Even though Paul was winning 'soul and mind' of the non Jewish people, Peter as demonstrated in Seun's entries from the book of peter in the Bible, there is a clear disagreement to Paul's style and method.

TayoD, if you need to correct me do so. Do not ask me to proof the irelevant. It is you who should think about what Seun said. How could Peter disagree with paul? If Paul was sincere, it would have been impossible for Peter do disagree with him. Afterall, Peter learnt from Master Jesus (AS), directly what truth is. On the other hand Paul did not learn from Jesus, while Jesus was alive, preaching his ministry.  

Dont attack me. You should be rational and therefore ask yourself it paul was disgenius. I will assume that Juses completed his mission on this earth. If this is the case, then Paul should within the boundary of what Jesus did, not beyound it and separate from it. Afterall, if Paul was within the boundary of what Jesus put in place, then Peter would never have any reason to dis agree with Paul.

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@Olabowale,

Now that you have decided to derail this thread by shooting yourself in the foot, may I require you to ask of your Allah who claim to have sent down the laws to Moses, the Gospels to Jesus and the Psalms to David, why He failed to have these Authors follow the protocol you keep wondering about.

When you have that answered, then I will begin to give you some answers.

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@Seun: If Paul's writing is unreliable, then why should any follow his teaching or what he said about anyone, specifically Jesus? Is Paul one of the 12 core followers of Jesus? Who is better, any of the core 12 followers or paul who never was from this group? It seems as if what you are saying, Seun, is that Peter, from the group of 12, disagreed with Paul. Paul regardless was a lone ranger and went on a tangental rampage anyhow. Along the way disregarding these noble followers who remain on the essence of jesus' message, along the way making up 'stuffs' and therefore was able to win mind and soul.

I often ask myself this questions about the 'inspired writers' of the Bible; why is it that they do not use their own names and start their 'inspired writing', by saying, I, Mr/Ms. XYZ, have been inspired to tell you christians the following, ? You see, in this way one will clearly know who wrote what and when and why. It will also will give the exact true material that Jesus and any of the other prophets of Old and New testaments, separate and apart from what Paul, a Johnny come lately and others claimed are from Jesus and of course, what came from their own mind, experience or conjecture.

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Seun,

Or more clearly as the bible says:

The Word of God, is a double edged sword.

Again: The wheat and tares grow up together.

Thus they must be eating the same things (the bible) but they have different reactions to them.

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I think we should stick to the core question. We may use relevant arguments to make our points. So, my opinion is this, atheist do not believe in God. I now want to know if atheist believe in Hell? What do atheist believe Hell to be?

The other side of this argument is the group that believe in God. Under this group, you have subgroups; One subgroup that truly believe in God (Maybe). Many subgroups that believe, but the believe is wrong, (Possibly). The believer of God many subgroups, some how believe that his/her own subgroup is the true God believing subgroup.

Between the atheist group and the many subgroups, there is a probable One group that is right about God, the existence or no thereof. It is not possible that aitheist and believers, both could be wrong on this matter.  Again, it is also possible that all the beliver subgroups are wrong, but there is that likelihood that one of the subgroups is wrong. But it can be more than one subgroup.

As a muslim, Islam's books, the Qur'an is the dictation of God to Muhammad (AS), through Angel Jibril (AS), except few verses in the second chapter that Muhammad got directly from God. The sunnah/hadith collections are the actions and words and what are permit by Muhammad (AS). But the sunnah/Hadith are categorized from strong and sound to weak and probably false, based on the chain of narrations.

Havent said the above, I want to make it clear that any objective minded individual, will discover the existence of God upon studying the Qur'an and the authentic sunnah/hadith. How? Study the life of Muhammad itself. How is it possible that an illiterate  could give such exegeses  with tremendous accuracy in many specialized disciplines that the best minds of today are just discovering it! We must never forget that this man existed over 14 centuaries ago. His materials, the Qur'an and the Sunnah/hadith were and are still superior sources of academic informations, even though they are religious materials. Inshort, the books challenge mankind to reason, think, refect, observe, ponder, etc.

Can any right thinking individual with sound mind and good heart disbelieve in the existence after a thorough study of these noble sources? God said in the Qur'an, in Surah Asr (Time); 'Those who believe and do righteous work'. If you look at this verse, you will see that there are two parts to receiving God grace; believe in God and doing good work. The greater of the two is believing in God. It is also the one that is easier on the soul, heart and the whole body.

Doing good work is harder on the person, but becomes almost effortless, if one believes in God and doing it for the pleasure of God and hope to receive the reward from God. A person who truly believes in God find good work very easier to do, compared to if the same person is in the state of disbelieve. Prophet Muhammad (AS) said that those who are good before they believe are always the ones who are good when they believe. In essence, your quality of goodness is greater if you are a believer rather than when you are still in disbelieve.

@KAG: The 'Command, BE" is the starting point "Button", that God The Almighty use to put any thing that He decrees to a manifestation. So for example, when He decrees the creation of the earth, He but put the whole thing into a craetion motion/mode by saying 'BE", and it is!

About the continuous movement of the earth on its path,being explained away, by Gravity/motion under Keplers law, I will like to ask this question; Is Kepler's law completely explained everything and does Kepler knows everything? Kepler had limited knowledge and before him, the earth was already in its path and gravity was already in existence. God expained in the Qur'an's Surah Rahman that people should try to penetrate the space with the knowledge that he has. Please go to www.answering-christianity.com and look under the science and medicine in Qur'an and be dazzled.

The earth not bursting even though there is platonic activity and other geological activities in its core because God put balance into all of the activities under, on and over the surface of the earth, so that mankind may reflect. Even though, under the earth surface, you have molten lava and steam which will creat expansion, yet God allows the atmospheric pressure (both kinetic and potential in all their forms) and the occasional steam letting valves  ( earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc), the earth has continue to survice and support all of us, known and unknown. In the process of earth volcanic actvities, God allows the creation of the earth to continue. In this process, more land surface emmergies, often from under water as Island or part of already existing land mass.

As to your thought of mutation, it is impossible. First we as humanbeing are still discovering our earth. Just because we did not know it yesterday does not mean that it did not exist yesterday. It simply means that we did not know it then. One would ask why hasnt man mutated and function as 'normal since man appeared? I believe that Adam is the first man and he and me look exactly the same! Adam was created. Read the Qur'an. It is an invitation from your Lord and all who truly believe in Him.

God said in the Qur'an: 'And I did not creat Jinn and man, except that they worship me.' In another part, He the Almighty said: 'I am your creator and all that you creat.' In this second verse, God creats things anew, without ever any prior existence/example. So for example, when TV is created by man, man used the materials from the earth and himself/herself. God created earth and all the materials that man used to creat TV.

Man used himself/herself; the knowledge that God gave and all the hands, feet, etc. I believe I am over simplifying  

things. In the Qur'an's Surah baqarah, Allah said that He provide knowledge to Adam. So Adam knew things that were not even known by Angels until Adam was revealing them, by the permission of God, the Almighty.

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Seun,

This is why Peter warns us about Paul's writings.

2Pe 3:15-16  and the long-suffering of our Lord count ye salvation, according as also our beloved brother Paul--according to the wisdom given to him--did write to you, as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood, which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings, unto their own destruction*.

* Notice that following the writings of Paul incorrectly can destroy you.

2Pe 3:17-18  Therefore, beloved, knowing beforehand, beware lest being led away with the error of the lawless,* you fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace and in knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

* The error of the lawless. They always believe they are above the law and the law does not apply to them.

So we know this is the error that twisting the writings of Paul will lead to, a people who will walk away thinking Christianity gives them the right to be a horrible jackass.

And remember Peter's warning that reading Pauls writings and taking them this way this  will destroy them.

Or remember that God says:

I give them their own delusions who would not love the truth.

Satan and Jesus both were sent by God to the earth.

It does not surprise me that one can be following Satan or Jesus with a bible in their hand.

I the Lord create the good and the evil. I, the Lord, do it all. Isaiah 45 verse 7

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Ndipe,

No verse of the bible is meant to be read or understood by non-believers.

It is for our understanding that the bible teaches in Romans 1:20, that in reality, the invitation to God is extended to all folks and the proofs they require are there also, but they turn away from them and to their own foolishness. i.e. worship of created beings ___ what man says.

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According to the Bible, there is no excuse for one to be an atheist. Read Romans 1:20

http://bible.cc/romans/1-20.htm

http://www.waytoGod.org/qexist.html

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Nferyn,

What has been confirmed by you, is simply that ants are much more rational then these killing murderous big foot pesticide making humans who are trying to explain human agriculture needs to ants.

I told you the smashers were evil! I told you long spray was destroying and polluting the air with their pesticides!___ The ants point of view of humans.

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@ TayoD,

It's nferyn, not nfern.

Anyway, I'm still not wiser on what faith is. Is my definition incorrect?

If faith causes manifestations, by what process does it do that and how can an independent observer detect it?

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@nfern,

Faith brings manifestations. So inspite of starting at the point where you do not see, faith eventually brings the unseen into the seen. For instance, the issue of creation which has been mentioned here. A bystander during creation would not have seen the earth, It existed first in God's spirit, and through the instrumentality of faith (WORDS), God caused the earth to be brought into the tangible material we can now observe and see. So in essence, we understand that the material is a product of the spiritual. That is why using the material to validate the spiritual is unthinkable. The source validates the produce and not vice versa.

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Thanks for clarifying your position. It was not my intention to get into an argument (although I aways like a challenge), but rather to understand the concept of faith. My current understanding is that it is obediently accepting something to be true without (or even in spite of contrary) evidence. Am I correct?

By the way, it is nferyn, not nfern

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@nfern,

I will not go into any arguments with you.  As Dru has rightly pointed out, we are both on different starting blocks.  I believe and will expect us to start from the position of faith in the fact that there is God, and you will not begin from there.  It'll thus be a waste of both of our valuable times.

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Drusilla,

Thanks for making it pefectly clear that Christianity is:

1. anti-reason (The letter killeth, the Spirit giveth life, The wisdom of the world is foolishness to God)

2. authoritarian (focus on faith and obedience)

3. irrational (as it, in your words, supercedes logic)

4. malevolent (God is [b]not [/b]omnibenevolent)

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@Dru,

Thanks for clarifying that. I just thought some might read your piece and make the wrong conclusions. Nice to have it well explained for those who might take that scripture and run with it without a proper line upon line, precept upon precept interpretation of scripture.

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Nferyn,

The Laws of the Christian bible are far too numerous for me to stipulate them all here but I will narrow down a few that I think are pertinent to this discussion.

1. The letter killeth, the Spirit giveth life.

This is an important one because it personally drives a lot of athiest nuts that the bible is not rational.

Trying to read and understand the bible as a way to get faith (understanding), would in fact lead to less faith for a person without the Spirit of God.

The letter (bible) would kill your soul (killeth) if you worked at understanding it from a skeptical point of view.

So understanding this one law should lead you to understand why it would be beyond moronic for me to try to take the bible and convince you of anything.

And that brings up another related law:

2. One can plant, and one can water but only God gives the growth.

In otherwords, talking to christians can be helpful, we can plant seeds and we can water you with the words of the bible but again, we must wait for the Spirit to enter into you before you can actually grow and understand what is being said.

Another related much stronger law of the bible but very related:

3. The wisdom of the world is foolishness to God.

So no list of definitions or rationality's or men's wisdom can overrule for a Christian, the laws of God contained in the bible.

So to answer your questions:

1. Yes, these laws supercede what you may define as logic.

2. Yes, logic can be if you want applied to the bible but the bible promises that you it will fail to penetrate the bible. In fact leave you in worse shape, if you had not tried to apply them.

3. The problem of evil, is not a problem but too many Christians are scared of your reaction to teach what the bible actually says about evil. (I the Lord create the good and the evil.) instead their busy promoting a what I have come to call a "hug god".

The truth is, God creates evil. The same as a parent who spanks a child will be considered evil by the child. God not only creates evil, he created someone to carry out the evil. The same as Bush created the war in Iraq but does not have to shoot an Iraqi for the war to take place. You can guess whose job it is to spread evil in the world, he works for God.

So the bible is not irrational at all, once you actually accept what it truly says: God creates the good and the evil.

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Nferyn,

Ah. Ha!

Now you are starting to get to the core problem that an Athiest and a Christian have when trying to discuss God.

Let me put it this way:

Now, Christianity is not a proposition (as you would have us believe), it is a method of examining propositions for their truth-value and naturally Christianity presupposes itself as it would otherwise violate the basic laws of the Christian bible.

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TayoD,

Can you define faith? Why is it more tangible than the physical?

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Hi Dru,

I've watched your exchange with nfern and I must confess that you have done a great job.  Personally, I try to avoid getting into argument with Atheist or whatever term they call their system of beliefs.  How do you explain the spiritual to someone who is not ready to enter into the realm of faith?  Nature clearly shows that some results are only obtained when certain conditions are fulfilled.  For instance, through science, we know that you need a combination of 2 parts of hydogen to one part of oxygen to produce water.  Someone may claim that is not true because they have combined hydrogen and oxygen and never got water.  But the knowledge that person lacks is the right combination and environment.

The things of God can only be understood by faith, which is more tangible than the physical touch-me- I-touch-you world that these people only understand.  Until you enter into faith, you will never see or know God.  According to Hebrew 11:6, you must first believe God IS before you can begin to see a proof of Him.  Until the Atheists acknowledge this, they will continue to grope in darkness.  

Also, I couldn't but comment on what you term TV christians and your ascertion through scripture that it takes feeding the children to begin to know Christ.  Though unintentional (I believe), you have suceeded in painting a picture of salvation through works.  I'm sure you know that not one person will enter heaven based on their good works.  If that happens, then Christ died in vain.  

Scriptures is not difficult to understand when you realise God's personality and the way He talks.  His emphasis on a subject sometimes gives the impression that other subjects are not important.  But in all, you will realise that every word of His is a command, and none is to be taken lightly.  According to Jesus, ", this you should do, without leaving the others undone".  Feeding the hungry children is just as important as taking care of the widow and the fatherless (which is refered to as the true religion).  But in no way is God implying that doing any of these will bring salvation.  Good works are encouraged by the scriptures and God is pleased with them, but such works are rewarded only if the one doing them is already saved.

The Lord gave me a good example with respect to this discusion a long time ago.  I was in a bus in Lagos on my way home from work.  I saw a woman in a government uniform sweeping the side of the road.  The Lord made me see that the only reason why that woman will get paid for the job done is because she is on the pay-roll of the Government.  Anyone may come out and do that job even better than that woman, but such a person will never get paid if they were not on the pay roll of the Government.  Same is true with faith, if you are not a believer, saved by grace, all those good works, while note-worthy will be lost.  That is why the Spirit of God sent believers to Cornelius to show him the way of salvation despite the fact that the man was full of good works.  His good works will not save him, and I doubt if good works will be rewarded in hell.

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Drusilla, that's an extreme skeptics approach to eptistemology and it's self-defeating.

Truth can only be established within a shared eptistemological framework. That framework implies that it follows the laws of logic and infers statements from these laws.

the basic laws of logic are:

1. the law of identity: A is A, or, anything is itself; if a propostition is true, then it is true

2. the law of excluded middle: anything is either A or not-A; a proposition is either true or false

3. the law of contradiction: nothing can be both A and not-A; a proposition cannot be both true and false

Rationality is the application of logical inference to propositions to determine their truth-value. If you say that rationality is something else, we can never have shared meaning and communication is pintless.

Now, rationality is [b]not [/b]a proposition (as you would have us believe), it is a method of examining propositions for their truth-value and naturally rationality presupposes itself, as it would otherwise violate the basic laws of logic.

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Nferyn,

Then we are trying to explain the same thing.

I must first believe what you have already accepted as true about rationality, before you can establish your truths about rationality.

That in your words is: irrational.

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4get_me,

Stop sprouting your nonsense about my so-called revisionism. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s). It is a commonly used tactic by theists to define atheism in such a way as to only incorporate strong atheism. This tactic is applied to pass the buck and treat atheist and theist beliefs on the same epistemological level, which is dishonest at best.

Atheists themselves (and with this I mean the vast majority of them) do not subscribe to your definition.

On an ethymological level, your definition is incorrect.

From George H. Smith, Atheist - The Case Against God (p. 7):

Maybe you should read some more atheists on what atheism really is instead of relying on selective readings of dictionary definitions or definitions of theists.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-definitions.html

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/atheists_modern.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/a/whatisatheism.htm

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/smithdef.htm

Huxley, the person who invented the term agnosticism was also perfectly clear when he ensured that agnosticism has related to knowledge (gnosis) of the existence of God(s) and not to belief.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-huxley.html

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Now, when the truth of what is to be established is based on the prior acceptance of what is true, then the whole reasoning is irrational and that's what I tried to explain.

When theists assume the existence of God to establish the truth-value of the claim God exists, they are being thoroughly irrational.

wikipedia can help you on the way

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Nferyn,

You dismiss the fact that no matter how insane, it may look to me and you, the tribe in melaysia that builds large ladders and falls off of them, believes that they have completely rational reasons for doing so.

I might consider their behavior irrational but they would consider it rational.

Thus everyone mostly tends to have their own definitions of what is rational and what is irrational. Considering that they are 6 + billion humans. I would think that there are going to be, darn near that many definitions of what is rational and irrational.

I would say that it is impossible for a person to proclaim there one sure definition of rational beliefs of behavior, unless one was very arrogant in proclaiming thier ideas of rationality a superior truth to all others.

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Nferyn,

So only YOUR personal definition of rationality is relevant? Everybody else who does not have your personal definition of rationality is irrelevant.

Really? Now you also have some personal standard of what evil is, besides your personal standard of what rationality is, that I suppose I must "just believe" before you can convince me of this claim.

Thank you for admitting that I must believe your way first before I can even have this discussion with you, where you are sure that you will prove your beliefs correct.

Hell, I must believe you about a whole bunch of things before you can use those things to show me you are correct.

Isn't that a wee bit circular?

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intersubjectivity as if there are 6 billion definitions of rationality and that these are relevants is very far off the mark. You have a tendency to muddle commonly held terminology by giving your very personal interpretion of these terms and now you're telling me I have a subjective bias? Ironic, isn't it?

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truth-statement, the only way to verify it's validity is by applying rationality. Irrationality simply dissociates claims from being investigated as either true or false.

1. I wasn't even talking about [i]my kind [/i]of God

2. Truth-questions can ultimately only be rationally investigated

3. what's subjective?

4. Which bias?

5. what personal standards?

6. accept what?

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@nferyn: You seem to be accusing anyone who claims that God does exist as foundamentatist "ignorant". Would you no think that these people who have the opinion that God does exist may think that the like of you is exactly what you accuse them of?  But this is not what I am making my entry about.

You seem to be asking everyone who believes in God that to give you a proof. Your hypothesis then centers on the fact that no one can proof it, because no one has seen God. I for one is a muslim. In the Qur'an, God through this revelation to Muhammad (AS), says you can not see Him, but can feel the effect of His existence through all things and even indeed, yourself! Please reflect on yourself; the the perfect working of the machine that is you. The process of food intake to the removal of the waste of this food; inbetween, you have mastication of that food by chewing in the mouth, lubricated with mixture of mouth saliva. (In just this first process, you have the tongue, teeth mouth walls and you are tempted to ask yourself, how does the saliva comes to existence?0.

Of course, upon thorough chewing, you swallow the food through the ausophagus. In this process, the food is soft enough to take the tube like shape of the pathway.  It also absorp some heat and comes even softer as it moves towards the stomach.  When it gets to the stomach, it would have becomes soft enough and encounters such processes that complete digestion will be possible in the stomach. Of course, when applicable the right acitidy from the bile solution of the bileduct is involved in this process of digestion.  Please consider the many muscular movements, specifically in the stomach during this digestive process. Even as the body contains acid, it does not do any damage to the soft interior wall of the internal organs.  

The digested food is now being absorbed, the nutrient into the body, leaving the rest, the not nutrient part. The nutrient part is transported through the the blood to the body organs which absorb it. The not nutrient part of the digested food, the waste part is somewhat harder, but not dry and harsh as iy moves down to the bowel to be excreted. This waste product is deficated as excremen and urine. The organs coagulate, forcing the excremen out of the body through the lubricated surface of the internal organs forming the transporting systems; the large and small intestines and the colons and rectum. The lubrication and the complex movements of the transporting organs makes the removal of the waste product easy on the body as adequate. This also mentain the health of the body. The removal of this waste product prevents it from poisoning the body nd the lubrication prevents the tearing of the wall of the internal organs. Inshort, the the body machine works.

As to the nutrients,it is transported by the oxygenated blood and absorbed as such. It benefits the body as it relates to growth, fighting deseases in form of a means of producing the necessary amount of antibody, etc. We can see how complex, this very small function of the total living process of man. Within this process, you have milk producing process, in a woman when she needs to nurse. Of course, it is this intake of food process, all through to the final process of nutrient absorption and defication of the waste process that you have growth , for example in youth to adulthood, whereby one is even able to be matured to be involved in production itself.

Now, nferyn, this is just a small part of the proof of the existence of God. God said in the Qur'an that there is iron (fe), in the body. Another proof this is, clearly, since it was not known by the scientist community 14 centuaries ago. How was it possible for this Arab illiterate, Muhammad (AS) was able to know this in makka? A guess work? No. Hardly, since there are so many of that very high scientific exegesis. You need to read the Qur'an before you response, intelligently, not foundamentalist ignorant, full of pride.

Finally, I will like you to consider this fact; Do you believe there is Blackhole in our galaxy, indeed in the milky way? Has anyone seen blackhole? But it is not true that the effect of blackhole is felt on the gases/matters as the come close to it? If this is the case, that no one has seen the blackhole, but the effect are known on matters that comes close to it, then I ask a question, which I should be provided believeable answers, not just hypothesis. The Jews, Christians and Muslims believe that there is God, even though no one can see Him (I use the male gender here denoting power, not because I as a muslim believe that God is a male).Tthe same God says that He creats all things. Then it is not rational to believe Him, even in a greater sense as you believe the existence of Blackhole? It is God by His firm command of BE (A sound process that is called the Big Bang theory (Theorem), by those who believe in accidental ocurenceof being, by so doing consciously denying the Creator, Who  metered everything with the appropriate order). I believe that when God speaks, the sound should be louder than any other sound of any and all things created. So the Be of His command that starts creation should be the Biggest bang. But in this case, it is not a theory, but a reality that started the event of creation. For it it is believed that before creation process begins, God was alone in His majesty. He was not lonely or in need of company. He creates according to His will. He does not oppress His creations. He gives order to all things. He creates Paradise and Hell to reward the believers by His mercy, punish the disbelievers by His justice.

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See, this is why I want to know what a Athiest is.

When you begin to crack the nut and look at what Nferyn's Athiesm is.

I find I must first subscribe to all his beliefs and ways of seeing things, before he can convert me to seeing it his way.

That's just like Christianity, that says: taste and see that the Lord is good.

In other words, I must first believe in Nferyn's rationality before he can convert me.

Would it be "rational" for someone to become a Christian before they are converted to Christianity?

That is what I am being asked to do, with Nferyn's rationality beliefs.

LOL

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Nferyn,

Again with you pushing your personal bias for rationality or rather against irrationality, on to others.

I'd estimate that there are probably 6 billion or so (depending on how many humans can answer what is their definition of rationality) possibly mutually exclusive definitions of rationality.

Again with your subjective feelings that you can decide what beliefs must be based on.

And two now your changing it and adding your personal bias towards a beliefs relevance to those outside the self if based on something other than your personal standards, you set up earlier.

It's a helluva subjective bias you are trying to impose on others now, not only what their beliefs must be based on but your kinda being God like now in knowing the outcomes if it is not based on your earlier personal standards, you assume that everybody else should also just accept.

This is kinda of the Nferyn religion you are trying to convert me to.

1. I must believe your definition of rationality.

2. I must believe that irrationality is the root for most evil.

3. I must believe that others without your belief in rationality are irrelevant.

Whew. I feel as if I am in God's presence. Well, a god of your own making. Nferyn the god of rationality.

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Glory only to you Lord. Blind them to me. Let them only see You.

You Alone are worthy Lord.

Glory to You Lord, for I hear hearts cracking now!

Thank You Lord Jesus. Praise You Lord Jesus.

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For all the TV christians, who would never just believe me, that True Knowledge of Jesus Christ begins with a starving child to help feed.

Because they been praying to the God of mammon for too long.

Jer 22:16  He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: was not this to know me? saith the LORD.

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Seun,

I liked your comic.

Did you know in real life that Christians were put to death as ATHIESTS because the idea that you just believed in ONE GOD, was considered virtual ATHIESM at one time?

I agree.

That which is being taught as True knowledge of Christianity is no more than toilet paper that satan wipes his Bottom with.

True Knowledge of God would begin with a starving child to help feed, not a prosperity gospel preacher teaching you to get your money on.

Stop looking for True Knowledge of Jesus Christ on TV.

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Atheists are people who deny the existence of the our exalted creators. Shame on them!

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I'm curious: what does "Command; BE" mean?

I'm guessing gravity and motion have something to do with that; look up Kepler's laws. Did you have a differing explanation?

Because the things you mention (especially platonic activities) wouldn't cause it burst and pulverize into dust.

I'm not quite sure I completely understand what you're trying to ask, but it seems you're asking if speciation has been observed in nature. The answer is yes, and not just by looking at the nested heirarchies and similarities explainable (parsimoniously) only by shared ancestry, but also tested and examined cases.

It hasn't really.

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Nferyn,

Rationality brings far more harm to the world than irrationality. It just depends on how you define these things.

Your subjective feeling that a person must make God rational (LOL-- I'd like to see that one), is just your personal choice.

The next guy might want to make God -- Sexy, for instance because unsexyness has brought a lot of harm in the world in his opinion.

Rationality or Irrationality, is just your personal bias of what you would like to see in a God.

Doesn't say anything about me or my beliefs. No more than a Sexy or UnSexy God would.

Do you see your obvious and glaring subjective interpretation of what God should be?

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