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Honda 'End Of Discussion': Is The V6 Engine Inferior To The I4?

Someone gave me a V6 cheaper than a similar 4 cylinder end of discussion <<Accord?>> and I became skeptical about the performance of the V6.

Please does anyone knows if the V6 is less superior than the I4 engine?

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75 answers

Midas tanx for dat bit of information, really educating.

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If am not mistaken dis thread started 2008...damnnn!!! ..that's one hell of a thread....A whole bunch of jargons I only hear in movies... dis is why I hate physics...very complex course ....reminds me of the big bang thoery....

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FRONT PAGE mods abeg we need more insight from people.

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This tread should be reviewed or recycled and put in the Front Page ,

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Ammazing thread!

... thanks for d knowledge in here, now Ive made my choice.

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Heat and friction (wear and tear) are two factors that depletes the efficiency of a machine or car engine. Heat is caused by the slight explosion induced by the plug n mixture of fuel and air which causes the movement of the piston inside the engine block and a 4-plug engine gives off higher heat due to small volume n higher surface area while the v-6 gives of less heat but consumes more fuel and requires a lesser power to move a vehicle compared to the former. With all this in mind, the v-6 will have a higher chance of not suffering from engine wear or excess heat from engine and diminishing efficiency compared to the 4-plug. So it last longer. But the only problem i see with a v-6 is fuel consumption and no trusted engineer to fix it in times of breakdown or trouble

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This guys midas n ivvie are da bomb. As a mechanical engineer myself i know that torque is required to move a car from an idle position after which horsepower takes over. The torque should be directly proportional to the weight of the car also. For example a big family sized SUV having same torque as a 2001 camry would take a longer time to accelerate from an idle position compared to the camry. So with that in mind torque n hp are important in cars cos none is mutually exclusive, except of course the engine is designed for a specific purpose like a bulldozer that midas use requires higher torque but fast cars like lamborghinis requires a higher hp which can get to 680hp just for speed n maximum acceleration. As a confirmed practicing mechanical engineer, this are my points. Any criticism is welcome. Thanks

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i need toyota rav4 2001 model for 1.2 tokunbo please contact me ASAP if u will be able to help me get the above item thanks

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You guy's are real heating up on this Physics and mechanics, @Midas02 , we gree say u be mechanic, if Ivvie is saying something to people that dont understand him,it shouldn't be ur problem, at list the doctors and lawyer 's wont even understand him, so u chile and bye a freaking car, don't tell every body ur a mechanic, if not u get electrocuted,

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V6s are Money BURNING machines. Especially the 2003/2005 Honda accord V6 Models. Maintenance is very expensive and its got a very fragile transmission system (gear). And the rate of fuel consumption is high.

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Amazing trend of discussion.

look at the question

''Someone gave me a V6 cheaper than a similar 4 cylinder end of discussion <<Accord?>> and I became skeptical about the performance of the V6.

Please does anyone knows if the V6 is less superior than the I4 engine?''

the natural and educated response for any1 tryn to help this already confused guy would a yes or no answer. in its simplest form.

u guys not only did not really answer that, u went ahead and started fighting.

to the nairalander that asked the question, the v6 is superior to the I4 engine?''

how difficult was that?

the only reason you might have gotten a cheaper deal than you expected is if the V6 already has problems, or because the knowledge skill of most of our

mechanics is quite poor and so V6 models are not always prefered in NIGERIA

my advise to u is stick to a 4 cos since u really dont know much about cars.

sorry about these braniacs when dey make us all para.

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Don't know why I feel the need to add my 5 kobo's worth,

but Ivvie youngman, the best thing when confronted with superior numbers/knowledge is to keep quiet,

although since it's the internet your words live on forever, in which case, just pretend your 12 year old brother was using your account.

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As a professional of more than 10 years experience working in Europe now,I will say that Ivvie is writing like some one who has read a lot but does not have a lot of practical experieince.

Midas is however breaking down his argument in a way that any well educated person can understand and that usually comes from practical experience.

I only feel sorry for people in Naija because this argument would be understood by most half educated people in the western world but to a lot of Naija graduates even the, science ones it may be hard to follow .

If you work in a place where almost every one has internet access at home and the clients come in to see you at work after going online and doing their own research ,it is hard to bamboozle any one here. You have to know your stuff.

BUt I must thank you both for debate, higher standard than I have seen on Nairaland of late

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Maintenance of v6 cars is silly and high and also silly

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Me go school, for where? When nairaland get ogbologbo like this.

See as grama full groud yakata.

Abeg, make I copy am quick quick so I go fit tell Molue driver say the thing wey make me charge am 500 naira to patch im tire nah because the tire get ADIYE(fowul)batic compression from overload.

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really feeling

u guys here!!

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Wetin we dey do here if we no fit discuss?

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Oga proo u welcome o, but abeg make this tory get end of discussion.

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@PAPABOMBOY,

I am well. I have been on vacation for the past few days and wasn't looking forward to seeing a computer, Interesting replies though

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Midas02 --

No one is saying you should not point it out when you are convinced another person is wrong. We only ask that you keep your manners as well. You can always disagree with other peoples opinion without getting too personal. I am sure that you do not present your views this manner at work even when you perhap run into an employee that comes accross to be ignorant. You ought to simply express your point and let the management team decide. Same approach could be applied here.

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Gamer,

Your problem is easy to narrow down. The kind of issue and symptoms you just described points to only one culprit - Ignition system (this includes spark plug wires and distributor assembly)!.

You probably need Spark Plug Wires (spark plug wires are supposed to be changed during a full tune-up). Spark plug wires don't function right once they get old because the rubber covering deteriorates, heat from the engines causes wires to dry up, crack and loose pliability. Eventually, you start loosing vital electric currents to outside elements and your engine's spark timing cycle is thrown off because the electric charge doesn't get to the right cylinder/spark plug when it is needed. This is why your car jerks!. Having said that, there could be another culprit - Distributor!. Honda distributors (especially 1990 -1997 models) are notoriously sensitive and when you start having temperature related malfunction (engine getting warm or cold) in distributors then it is the beginning of a long trip to absolute failure (it takes a while but it will eventually happen). The best thing is to replace your spark plug wires (hope you can find original/quality parts) and if it does not stop then you can start looking to replace your distributor soon.

Unfortunately, Honda distributors are sealed and you cannot replace the distributor cap and rotor inside because they don't come that way. you have to buy the entire distributor. I hope this helps.

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Change your sparkplug wires. You probably have some white deposits on the wires causing a misfire. Check your ignition rotors & distribution cap too.

Try checking what you can according to this link

http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/engine/ques090_3.html

I'll hate to think of the compression loss as cause, but the type of engine oil used in naija raises ?s

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Hello all,

I have a 1997 honda accord (baby boy). V6 engine. Works fine except that it jerks badly when its cold. But normalises as soon as I drive a distance and the engine warms up.

I've changed the plugs severally. This doesnt improve at all when a new set of plugs are installed.

Could it be a fuel filter issue? Where's the filter located. We can't find this.

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O boyy!!!!!!!, I cant believe the amount of technicalities that rolled out in this simple argument.I was educated though.

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Let this be my final entry into this topic. To those who have been kind enough to try and chip in or mediate - It is our culture in Naija, to resolve and settle our differences without using truth-telling and facts as a guiding yardstick and I am just one who simply rebels against it!. I refuse to trade truth for peace!. I call a spade a spade and it will be unfortunate if someone chooses to see it as an insult or arrogance.

Ovvie’s statements are not only untrue and misleading, but they also reveal a confused and desperate desire to justify his position by pasting unrelated, meaningless and distorted jargon!. One cannot be asked about Jesus Christ in a Bible knowledge examination and give them an answer talking about Moses!. Both topics may be in the Bible but they are largely different events and the stories cannot be confused with each other.

Ovvie keeps making reference to High compression, Low compression, High efficiency in engines and a host of thermo-related terms without any meaningful postulations as to the inter-relationship and their relevance to the subject matter – which is Engine wear in 6Cyl Vs 4Cyl.

For the benefit of those who may be interested in knowing, I will take the time to shed light on those technical terms without making it overtly complicated:

All cars use four-stroke engines. One of the strokes is the compression stroke, where the engine compresses a cylinder-full of air and gasoline into a much smaller volume before igniting it with a spark plug. The amount of compression is called the compression ratio of the engine. A typical engine might have a compression ratio of 8-to-1. The higher the compression ratio, the higher the efficiency and power output of an engine (within a given limit). Thus, most modern engines, because of the higher demand for gas economy and power, have compression ratios that are over 9-to-1 and some go as high as 10.5-to-1. Because of the optimization of engine design, today’s engines tend to operate at higher temperatures (even though the total effect of this higher temperature is neutralized by the use of more efficient cooling systems and improved application of heat-treated and conductive alloys in these engines). The higher operating temperatures of these newer engines mean that low quality oil will most often break down quickly thereby loosing its essential viscosity and ability to effectively prevent friction by lubrication. Like I said earlier, the only thing that causes wear in an engine is friction (metal to metal contact) and this is why effective lubrication is a must!. This is why car manufacturers specify a certain grade of engine oil and some would even go as far as to encourage the use of Synthetic oil for their vehicles. Now this is as far as the issue of high compression and heat go in the subject matter of wear in an Engine.

The truth remains that whether you drive a 4Cyl or a 6Cyl, if you are driving a car manufactured with the technologies from the mid-90’s onward, you are most likely driving a car with higher compression ratio and efficiency and it doesn’t make a difference either way (4cyl or 6Cyl). Here is an extract from Honda’s corporate office on their Honda Accord engines (2003 “End of Discussion”):

http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=952

Now as you can see from that page, not only did they show the technical details and differences of both the 4cyl and the 6Cyl, they also went on to show the improvements that they made over the preceding engines (1998-2002 “Baby boy”). The compression ratios stated there for both engine types show that they both have comparably high ratios – but by today’s standards this are considered normal!. Truly high compression engines as found in super high performance cars such as Honda S2000, Corvette Z06, Ferraris and Porsches often operate with compression ratios that are much higher and that is why such cars cannot be operated with 87 Octane gasoline (but that is another subject matter!).

The bottom line is that Ovvie’s insistence and continuous mention of this terms (to say little about his distorted and meaningless mathematical entries)  go to show me that not only does he not know what he is talking about because he uses them out of context, abusing them with reckless abandon and without any meaningful purpose, but he also doesn’t know how they tie into the subject matter. If you are really a final year student of mechanics then you must know that there are people that have been there before you and who have the added benefit of real world, hands-on experience! – something that a textbook cannot give you!. Ultimately, this discussion is not about winning or loosing an argument, it is about setting the records straight without any misrepresentation. I believe I have made my position and point adequately clear and I will henceforth refrain from further entries into this thread. Thank you.

PS: Ovvie, you still haven’t shown us the source or basis for your postulation about Hondas having a 130,000 mile design limit. We still look forward to seeing a credible shred of evidence.

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dpresident,

Stop going around/listening to those old-school roadside mechanic or you Honda will end up in a worse shape than the Contour.

Oyinbo, no put catalytic converter to make car drink fuel, but to reduce emission.

As a rule before you bought the car, V6 is only good for highway/speed burns fuel in "go-slow".

If cost of fuel is a concern to your finance, you shouldn't be using a 3.0 V6.

If you smell petrol from your tail piep, your O2 sensor might be the culprit(burning rich)

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@dpresident

Good luck with car, which was the original reason you posted. I hope it serves you well and a for a long time too.

Regards

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@bjcisse  and Raphoad,

I planned to ignore the thread but you two have succeeded in bringing me back. I think it is abundantly clear that you had nothing to say or contribute but just felt like writing. That Ok, it's a free world and the net is full of all sorts. A typically ignorant response, no understanding of the subject matter just being impressed by BS spouted out with big big grammer. Go back and read my post and point out to me what is wrong with? Some of Ivvie was writing was scientifically incorrect and I have pointed this out to him. If there is anything that I have written that is factually incorrect pls highlight it, instead this vacuous prattle excuse of a post!!

@Ivvie

1) The equation is still meaningless even with 1-2 under the summation sign. 1 to 2 of what?

2) Midas difinition is correct and is the standard definition of the 2nd law of thermo. Even if it comes from wiki. As you may be well aware it is a universal law, not only used in Heat transfer calculations, but also in industrial chemistry, biology, etc, The form described by Midas is the universal description.

3)

As TL tends towards 0: TL->0, we should have:

( 1 - (0/TH))* 100,  right. Now whatever yu divide zero by is zero or am I wrong? As in zero oranges dived by 50 oranges is no oranges, abi? so what does that leave us:

( 1 - 0)* 100 = 1*100 = 100%

You wrote:

As you can see the from the equation above as TL tends towards zero 100% is possible. Also, the statement in quote has no substantive application to the equation you have presented. 270K and 320K is going away from zero. The equation does not represent restriction. Maybe if you take the case that TH tends towards zero in which case you will have

(1 - TL/0)* 100. TL/0 is undefined as it tends towards infinity. This is where you can apply L'hoptal's rule and set your constraints. Even so, you'll probably end up with negative percentage, which could be impossible - a contraint depending on the engineering parameters of your system.

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PSSWORD,

Why are you taking things here personal? this place is suppose to be a forum where group of people comes together to share ideas. If you have decided not to come back to this thread again, then pls take a walk and don't start what you can finish.

Its as simple as ABC, give your opinion and let other give theirs. if you consider other people opinion wrong , then correct them and don't start to insult people here.

we are all gaining from this thread. remember you are not the only mechanical engineer reading this thread. there are all kinds of professional from different area of specialization too. once a again be responsible and post here as a professional you claim to be.

nobody on this thread has said midas is wrong but you or more ppl had said ivriv is wrong. but let do it maturely,

i dont no this but i believe everything ivrive has said will not be wrong, as more ppl has testify to this.

i'll wait here for you if you agree, i see u as a responsible guy and trust you will change.

Regards

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A big thank you to @Ivvie, @Midas02 and everyuone that has contributed to the discussion.

In fact I just discovered I have been away for two very important and explosive days on Niraland. I am a Civil engineer and a car frik that want some practical advice. I am very happy that I got more than the advise I wanted.

Happy to say that I got the 'end of discussion' v6 at 69k miles and it runs like mad and consumes fuel like mad. I understand the fuel consumpsion will reduse if the removed catalyst is replaced but I must tell you it is too sensitive compared to my ford contour I placed on Nairaland for sale www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-105186.o.html   .

@midas,Ivvie

please i will appreciate if can get in touch with me for a discussion outside this topic on talk2dpresident@yahoo.com or 08023456002. My name is Lateef.

Thanks a lot

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PSSWORD i think you should listen to 'Raphoad' advice, you guys should behave like a professional you claim to be, if you look at midas argument, there are too much insult to the other party which suppose not to be so.

Mind you guys, there hundreds if not thousand reading this thread alone. i check for an update on this particular thread every one hour instead of me to face the plenty work on my table.

Regards

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pls.

can we have advantages and disadvantages listed out here?

just that and period, and call it END OF DISCUSSION

rgds.

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I really appreciate the in-depth knowledge of Ivvie and Midas. To me, both know what they are saying and are ready to prove it. Just may be, one person needs to hear the other out and reason along. You just might be surprised that they may be saying the same thing in different ways. As to Midas, you only wanted to prove an argument and u don't have to rain insults at the other person. Be a professional you claim to be.

You---Pssword ( or whatever you name is), it will be better for you to understand a line of argument before you talk here, don't just participate because you want to feel among. Nobody is taking sides here and there is no street fight here. You might want to go to Oshodi to do that. These are learned and experienced people arguing what they both think they know out. If you know anything or you want to support, come out in the same vein and let's hear you out.

We are all matured (or I think we all are) and so must behave as such.

Lots of people have attested to the fact that they benefited immensely from the argument in question, so did I. BTW you pursued the poster in question(dpresident). He only asked for an advise. I guess the guy has picked what he needed from your arguments leaving you both to your showoffs (putting it mildly).

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I don't normally reply to post. but i can't stop laughing when Qimpex said and i quote "Painful, in the sense that I would have made more money selling it in the US than in Nigeria. You win some you lose some!" there is no way my friend that you will sell the car for more in the US.

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Guys,

i think we've had enough of this, obviously, both of you are sure whiz-kids on the block. DPRESIDENT wants a candid advice, and surely he is getting more than bargain for. IVVIE and MIDAS02, cud u guys please list the advantages and disadvantages of a 6 cylinder engine and a 4 cylinder engine.

Whatever you guys comes up with would just be enough for DPRESIDENT and and ppl like me who wants to buy a V6 engine Camry for my wife.

thanks.

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-- Middas02

I think  you both (yourself and Ivvie) had good arguments. Personally, I think your arguments were more convincing. However, I would suggest that in the future you should refrain from getting personal whenever you are involved in an argument. As far as I am concerned I liked how you both presented your arguments and they were enlightening and perhaps educative.

But it is alway nice to provide (perhaps non-savvy) readers with references.

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I no know book, wetin you wan make I say?

If person o know something he better make person dey quiet, or I go make fool of myself.

IMHO I6 better than V6 is better than  I4

Lower rpm and I6 has better balance(less vibration)

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SIENAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

SIENAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

OLUWASIENAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

How many times did i call you?

If you fail to interve within the next 24hrs,

I WILL,

, not read your posts again! shikena.

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A senior, Aha ahah, I was close enough - that is if you are indeed a senior. It seems you may need to get some clarification on some concepts before you leave college. All these things you have written take it to your professors, infact don't, show it to your friends they will be kinder. Let me point out some of the flaws in your writing I was able to pick up:

You wrote

This is a meaningless bunch of partial diff eqtns. One takes the summation of differentiatials, the other integrates over some imaginary x, make up your mind are yu looking for the rate of change or are you for some volume, surface area etc. what are you trying to achieve this equation in the context? I sincerely hope

you were not trying to describe the carnot cycle because that would absolutely inane.

You wrote :

Midas wrote:

Midas' definition is absolutely correct, although genereic it is more descriptive and captures the essence of the 2nd law. Yours is a subset as applied to a specificfield of study. This was my red flag. Yu simply did not understand what you were writing about. All your definition means is that, yu need a temp difference to do work. To do work is to increase the entropy of the system until a new steady state is reached. However there is a net entropy increase between the state before work was done and afterwards.

You wrote:

It seems you don't fully understand the principle behind entropy. Abstract in concept but practical in neally all systems. The degree of disorder. A low temp system has less entropy than a high temp system. so if you add heat to a lower temp system yu increase the entropy more than so for a high temp system ata molecular level. (2) Entropy tends to increase as you add engery to it, that is why you virtual every system tend to degrade with time, including humans - why we grow old - organs fail etc,

You wrote :

This is a very silly statement. Please don't say it outside!

You wrote:

This looks omimously like the First law of thermodynamics - " The amount of Energy in any system is conserved ". What has 0 Kelvin got to do with this - na wa oh!!

You wrote

What on earth is TL and TH??!!!! Even if TL tends towards 0, why is it impossible to reach 100% efficiency from that mathematical equation. It is possible to to resolve that equation such that 100% is reached. Are you worried about dividing by zero? Have you ever heard of L'hopital's rule? Have you ever heard of boundary value problems!!! I think i know what you are trying to say here but your presentation is off-beat and makes it difficult to understand - not scientific enough

I would like to continue this debate, but time no dey my hands. Go back and understand the concepts you have learnt over the last 4yrs, it seems some are wishy-washy for you. A word is good enough for the wise.

Odabo o'

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Fellow Nairalanders, I came across this information relevant to the current discussion and so decided to paste it here:

How Are 4-Cylinder and V6 Engines Different?

The number of cylinders that an engine contains is an important factor in the overall performance of the engine. Each cylinder contains a piston that pumps inside of it and those pistons connect to and turn the crankshaft. The more pistons there are pumping, the more combustive events are taking place during any given moment. That means that more power can be generated in less time.

4-Cylinder engines commonly come in “straight” or “inline” configurations while 6-cylinder engines are usually configured in the more compact “V” shape, and thus are referred to as V6 engines. V6 engines have been the engine of choice for American automakers because they’re powerful and quiet but still light and compact enough to fit into most car designs.

Historically, American auto consumers turned their noses up at 4-cylinder engines, believing them to be slow, weak, unbalanced and short on acceleration. However, when Japanese auto makers, such as Honda and Toyota, began installing highly-efficient 4-cylinder engines in their cars in the 1980s and 90s, Americans found a new appreciation for the compact engine. Even though Japanese models, such as the Toyota Camry, began quickly outselling comparable American models, U.S. automakers, believing that American drivers were more concerned with power and performance, continued to produce cars with V6 engines. Today, with rising gas prices and greater public environmental awareness, Detroit seems to be reevaluating the 4-cylinder engine for its fuel efficiency and lower emissions.

As for the future of the V6, in recent years the disparity between 4-cylinder and V6 engines has lessened considerably. In order to keep up with the demand for high gas-mileage and lower emission levels, automakers have worked diligently to improve the overall performance of V6 engines. Many current V6 models come close to matching the gas-mileage and emissions standards of the smaller, 4-cylinder engines. So, with the performance and efficiency gaps between the two engines lessening, the decision to buy a 4-cylinder or V6 may just come down to cost. In models that are available with either type of engine, the 4-cylinder version can run up to $1000 cheaper than the V6. So, regardless of what kind of performance you’re looking to get out of your car, the 4-cylinder will always be the budget buy.

One final note: It’s not a good idea to try to install a V6 engine into a car model that comes with a standard 4-cylinder. Retrofitting a 4-cylinder car to handle a V6 engine could cost more than simply buying a new car.

My reference is http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine9.htm .

I think this should throw some light to the present discussion b4 SIENA arrives.

Cheers.

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First of all, this is not an engineering discussion because Ivvie is writing NONSENSE He must be a sophomore or junior engineering student who hasn't quite understood the subject matter or some copy and paste jocky with little or no vague idea about engineering. I mean copying poorly formed partial differential equations from God knows where.  Equivocating, maybe prevaricate may be a closer word, on the 2nd Law of thermo. He had no understanding of the role of entropy in a sytem, heat or otherwise.  For me this was the biggest herring. When people use big big grammer and cryptic jargon when asked really simple question, you can quickly tell that there are trying to hide their ignorance.  Thank God I have an engineering background or I would have been bamboozled by charlatans like this Ivvie guy.

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While i would thank Midas for the knowledge passed across, I am patiently looking forward to hearing from SIENA, the only acclaimed and award-winning nairaland resident automobile specialist. Siena, pls we need your seal on this matter. Cheers.

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I surprise say Proo, Sultan and Siena never show up,

@ Midas02 and Ivvie (nairaland auto internet professors) plus anybody wey dey flash their respective certification.

All this una gra gra, una still no fit build una own moto. Una dey here dey slaughter una sef with SAE, ACE, this law, that law sotay person wey dey ask question sef don run, leave una comot.

First, I fit tell say una know book well well. Me, nah ordinary vulcanizer i be, but wetin different with me and professor wey go plenty school yet dey stammer up and down nairaland like person wey chop slap from Yellow fever, or the one wey fit nak engine block tory ooooh only to use am sell second hand moto from America.

Abeg make una perch.

That's why me i like yahoo boys------no long talk.

leaves-----rolling tire to the bus stop.

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KUDOS to you guys,

you have educated us all,

bury the hatchet and move on,

the painful thing is the fact that SIENA went AWOL when it mattered most.

SIENA must apologise to NAIRALANDERS whenaver he returns.

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KUDOS to you guys,

you have educated us all,

bury the hatchet ana move on,

the painful thing is the fact that SIENA went AWOL when it mattered most.

SIENA must apologise to NAIRALANDERS whenever he returns.

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May God help us. Midas02 & Ivvy

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Midas & Ivvie, You have both displayed a wide range of both academic [/b]and [b]technical competencies [/b]in your field of study. [b]That's great. I do not know most of what you have both mentioned but am sure most nairaland members who have had the opportunity to read through now know better about combustion, V6, 4 Cyl, pistons, Hp etc. I love you both.

Thanx very much. I have said it here on nairaland that we should come up wit a way of giving awards [/b]for good posts, but [b]Seun or anybody for that matter has said nothing about it.

Thanx though.

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Big up to both Midas and Iyvie. I'm a chemical engineer so i know you guys were not spouting gibberish.

Midas, if you have differences don't start hurling insults; it's petty and churlish.

When i make my views on practical engineering known i look forward to them being challenged.

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